![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by chujoe on May 5, 2010, at 21:12:10
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce » SLS, posted by Phillipa on May 5, 2010, at 20:59:43
Isn't it pretty well established that there is a psychological (as opposed to strictly biological) propensity for suicide to occur once a depressed person has begun to feel better? This makes sense in a folklore kind of way since the deeply depressed are often too immobilized to act on their suicidal ideation. One might say that in some cases the AD enables a person to commit suicide.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 21:30:32
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce, posted by chujoe on May 5, 2010, at 21:12:10
> Isn't it pretty well established that there is a psychological (as opposed to strictly biological) propensity for suicide to occur once a depressed person has begun to feel better? This makes sense in a folklore kind of way since the deeply depressed are often too immobilized to act on their suicidal ideation. One might say that in some cases the AD enables a person to commit suicide.
chujoe,
You wrote,[...the AD enables the person to...].
There are many ways to consider what happens when a forighn substance is being put into the brain.
Here is a link to a video that I would like for others to see so that we could include any aspects in it for this discussion.
Lou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at3Sg6qvgTE
Posted by floatingbridge on May 5, 2010, at 21:38:58
In reply to Thanks to all of you!!!, posted by StillHopefull on May 5, 2010, at 15:14:15
Nice plan. And babble will be here if you ever need it. And maybe you won't.
Best to you!
Posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 22:07:50
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce, posted by chujoe on May 5, 2010, at 21:12:10
> Isn't it pretty well established that there is a psychological (as opposed to strictly biological) propensity for suicide to occur once a depressed person has begun to feel better?
I believe this to be true. However, I am also convinced that some people can be made to feel worse by an antidepressant drug such that they become suicidal. Perhaps it will be ascertained in the future just what are the rates of occurrences of these two phenomena. It is important for doctors and patients to be aware of both scenarios and to monitor closely for their emergences early in treatment. I have yet to have a doctor tell me that there is a possibility that I will feel worse and to notify him should this occur upon initiating treatment with an antidepressant.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on May 5, 2010, at 23:30:13
In reply to Lou's reply-crsrowds » morganator, posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 7:59:05
Lou, my man, not all medications are the poison you make them out to be. Flat out, the depression and anxiety, that may result in being off a medication that has successfully helped one to feel better over the years, can do a whole lot more damage than the medication may do.
You want people who are on medications that feel good and function well and experience very few or no side effects to get off their medication? Maybe I am misinterpreting your message here.
Posted by morganator on May 5, 2010, at 23:40:41
In reply to Lou's request-, posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 15:58:57
Lou you present one link to one doctor expressing one opinion. Dude, come on brotha! This means zilch, nada, nothing, zero, squat. If you are the scientist you say you are, then back up your arguments with real science please.
Posted by chujoe on May 6, 2010, at 6:10:42
In reply to Lou's reply- » chujoe, posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 21:30:32
Lou, we put "foreign substances" into our brains every time we eat a candy bar or take a vitamin. We change our brain chemistry by meditating or exercising, etc. Human beings have been experimenting with this stuff for thousands of years. I'm not saying that some stuff isn't bad for you, it's just that I don't understand your particular focus on psych meds. Have you ever taken them? (Sorry if you've answered this before -- just direct me to the thread.)
I'll grant you that psych meds are probably over prescribed in the US and that some people would do better with psychotherapy or CBT or biofeedback, etc. But I'd argue just as strongly that there are times when psych meds are absolutely appropriate and beneficial. I speak here from my own experience and the experience of close friends who might not have made it back from madness without some of those drugs.
Maybe if we lived in Eden we wouldn't need the drugs -- we'd have lots of time to lie around and recover our balance, we'd live in loving extended families, the animals would comfort us, and we'd drink fresh water from the stream. But we don't live in Eden; we live in a society in which we're expected to get up and go to work or school every day and to "be productive." So we drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, have a martini, etc. We medicate ourselves in order to be the selves we are expected to be and which we expect ourselves to be. A hundred years ago, when all this became too much -- if we were lucky enough to be middle or upper class -- we'd have a "nervous breakdown" and retire to a dimly lit room at home or in an asylum until we felt able to face the world again. (If you were working class, or poor, a hundred years ago, you just drank more, smoked more, self-medicated more & since you couldn't afford the quiet room, you solved the problem eventually by dying, sometimes sooner, sometimes later.)
Sorry. I didn't intend to write a treatise on the history of madness. I just think that the kind of purity you apparently seek (I may misunderstand) is not obtainable and that we are left to do the best we can. I think it's useful to be aware of problems with various things we put in our bodies -- I stopped smoking 25 years ago, for instance, because there was clear evidence that the risks outweighed the benefits. And I'd stop taking a psych drug if it could be shown that the risks outweighed the benefits. In fact, I'd wager that the majority of people who post here, consciously or unconsciously, make a risk-benefit analysis every day -- Psychobabble is an information tool that helps people make that analysis. After which, many of us make the informed decision to take a particular drug or combination of drugs.
Posted by polarbear206 on May 6, 2010, at 10:45:11
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-, posted by chujoe on May 6, 2010, at 6:10:42
> Lou, we put "foreign substances" into our brains every time we eat a candy bar or take a vitamin. We change our brain chemistry by meditating or exercising, etc. Human beings have been experimenting with this stuff for thousands of years. I'm not saying that some stuff isn't bad for you, it's just that I don't understand your particular focus on psych meds. Have you ever taken them? (Sorry if you've answered this before -- just direct me to the thread.)
>
> I'll grant you that psych meds are probably over prescribed in the US and that some people would do better with psychotherapy or CBT or biofeedback, etc. But I'd argue just as strongly that there are times when psych meds are absolutely appropriate and beneficial. I speak here from my own experience and the experience of close friends who might not have made it back from madness without some of those drugs.
>
> Maybe if we lived in Eden we wouldn't need the drugs -- we'd have lots of time to lie around and recover our balance, we'd live in loving extended families, the animals would comfort us, and we'd drink fresh water from the stream. But we don't live in Eden; we live in a society in which we're expected to get up and go to work or school every day and to "be productive." So we drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, have a martini, etc. We medicate ourselves in order to be the selves we are expected to be and which we expect ourselves to be. A hundred years ago, when all this became too much -- if we were lucky enough to be middle or upper class -- we'd have a "nervous breakdown" and retire to a dimly lit room at home or in an asylum until we felt able to face the world again. (If you were working class, or poor, a hundred years ago, you just drank more, smoked more, self-medicated more & since you couldn't afford the quiet room, you solved the problem eventually by dying, sometimes sooner, sometimes later.)
>
> Sorry. I didn't intend to write a treatise on the history of madness. I just think that the kind of purity you apparently seek (I may misunderstand) is not obtainable and that we are left to do the best we can. I think it's useful to be aware of problems with various things we put in our bodies -- I stopped smoking 25 years ago, for instance, because there was clear evidence that the risks outweighed the benefits. And I'd stop taking a psych drug if it could be shown that the risks outweighed the benefits. In fact, I'd wager that the majority of people who post here, consciously or unconsciously, make a risk-benefit analysis every day -- Psychobabble is an information tool that helps people make that analysis. After which, many of us make the informed decision to take a particular drug or combination of drugs.
Very good points!!
Posted by StillHopefull on May 6, 2010, at 13:15:55
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-, posted by polarbear206 on May 6, 2010, at 10:45:11
I have enjoyed the discourse my original post prompted. The support is wonderful and the discussions are thought-provoking and insightful.
To begin using meds or not - to continue them or not - there is never a simple answer. As a teenager in the late sixties and early seventies I was a regular marijuana user. I don't recall being depressed, although looking back I suffered with ADD (not ADHD - I had the dreamy, calm attention deficit). I continued to use marijuana several times a day until my early 30s - was able to raise a child (quite successfully I can brag), maintain a household (although I wasn't the cleanest house on the block), and go to work as an office manager and bookkeeper. I usually held a job for several years before I got bored and went on to something else. I also did a lot of volunteer work for various agencies as well as my church and my daughter's school. Throughout all these years I always felt tired and "lazy" - I took a lot of naps on the weekend. When I would mention this to my GP, he would test my thyroid and my iron level and assure me nothing was wrong. One night I was complaining to a dr friend who said, "you have depression" What? I don't feel sad. He explained that depression is a physical thing and not in my head. Of course, he didn't know about the pot smoking...
I pretty much poo-pooed that information, but then I went through a very sad and disturbing incident - a dear friend's grown daughter was dying of leukemia. I went to visit and ended up staying and helping care for the patient till she died. She passed away at home, there was a hospice nurse once a day, my friend was occupied with her grandchildren (only 2 & 3 yrs old), so I was the one providing ALL the care. It was a horrific scene at the end - the poor girl screamed in agony and I pumped so much morphine into her port-a-cath that I couldn't believe she didn't die.
Needless to say, after that I was REALLY depressed. This young woman - my friend's daughter with two toddlers - struck down so brutally at only 23 years old. So I saw my first psychiatrist. I took one of those "funny" personality tests - I think it was the MMPI. Then this dr said I needed to stop smoking pot, and we could treat the depression. I was referred to a drug counselor and went through about 6 weeks of outpatient treatment to get off pot. At that point the P-doc started me on trazodone. Looking back, I wonder why he didn't just wait and see what would happen if I stayed clean - without any medication. Or why he didn't recommend regular psychotherapy. I wonder now if I really had Major Depression, or understandable sadness over what had just happened.
Well, that was my beginning with ADs. I saw that first doctor regularly every 3 months for a "medication check". I have to say that the depression lifted - whether it was the meds or just time, who knows. But good ole Dr #1 NEVER suggested that I stop taking the meds. In fact whenever I mentioned that I wasn't feeling quite well, he upped the dose. When he retired I picked Dr #2 from the insurance list and he happily kept my rX refilled without much discussion - and if I mentioned that I felt bad, again he upped the dose. Around this time I read an article about adult ADD in Time magazine. I told the dr that sounded a lot like me and he said, "Well, lets try some Ritalin and see what happens". So that was the start of drug #2. Five mg of Ritalin didn't do much but when it was upped to 10mg, I felt GREAT. But wouldn't anyone feel great on 10mg of Ritalin?
Eventually I was taking 300mg of trazodone and had a LOT of trouble getting up in the morning. The Ritalin helped with that a lot! But I started feeling a little "down", had trouble motivating, and generally felt lazy. At this point I was tapered off trazodone and started on Serzone and I felt "better" again. Why didn't this "expert" pause to consider that I felt down, unmotivated, and lazy because I was sedated with too much trazodone?
And the pattern continued - over time Serzone dose was upped to the max, eventually pooped out and Effexor XR was started. Effexor pooped out and Celexa was started. And I feel sorry for anyone tapering off of Effexor - what a nightmare. Yet "they" continue to say ADs aren't "addictive". WTF. When Celexa started to poop out, desipramine was added. Then when I had trouble sleeping trazodone was thrown in. In the meantime I switched from Ritalin to Adderal XR and was eventually taking 40mg. And I ask again - who wouldn't feel good taking that much speed???? Later the Celexa was replaced with Lexapro... And each time the drugs were changed, it was after the dosages were slowly increased to the maximum (and sometimes beyond) what was recommended by the manufacturer. At the end I was up to 60mg of Lexapro.
My husband got a great job opportunity and we moved across the country. I worried about finding a p-doc that would refill my prescriptions. Hah! No problemo! When I started to feel "bad" again, Dr. #3 suggested increasing my desipramine but wanted me to have an EKG to make sure my heart could handle it. Apparently too much desipramine can be hard on your heart. That was like a wake up call. What was I letting "them" do to me?
Now here is what I wonder - I medicated myself with marijuana for years and managed to function fairly well. I know the pot couldn't have been good for my motivation and I know I would have done better in school without it, but I still managed to maintain a 3.5 grade pt avg, then keep a job, be a mom and wife, and run a household.
Then when I went through a really traumatic experience that would have depressed ANYONE - the first thing suggested by an "expert" was to quit the pot (ok - that was probably a good idea no matter what), and "here, take this pill. It will fix you right up". There was never a suggestion of traditional psychotherapy, and there was NEVER any mention of taking the trazodone for 6 months and then stopping. Why not?
So I wonder if I really needed the meds in the first place. And then all the years - almost 20 YEARS of being on all kinds of different, powerful, psychoactive drugs. How has this changed my brain chemistry? And is it permanent?
I tell you honestly - before I started taking these drugs I NEVER felt as bad as I do right now. And yes, when the drugs were working I must say I felt great. But when the drugs stop working, and I have to go through the withdrawal while stopping one, and enduring the side effects while starting a new drug, I have never felt worse.
I even tried smoking some pot recently and I must say it made me feel a little better. I live in a state that allows pot for medical use so it's pretty easy to get. But there is no consistency in strength, and some of the stuff out there now is SO strong. The second batch I got didn't EVEN have the same "happy" effect - just made me feel dopey and depressed as ever. And how can I look for a job with marijuana in my system - everyone drug tests now...
So now here I am - over 50 yrs old, barely able to function, no motivation, no job, blah, blah, blah... If it wouldn't hurt my family so much I would kill myself. But I would never do that to them. I'm not a cruel person.
Did my years of medication do this to me? Or did my years of medication PREVENT me from feeling like this for all those years? What I do know is that I can't endure much more.
Does someone have any information about how long it takes for my brain to recover from all the drugs? It's been 3 months since I've taken anything, but the naturopath I'm seeing for neurofeedback said she can still see traces of the meds in my EEG. Is that even possible? The skeptic in me doesn't think so...
As a follow-up to my neurofeedback treatment two days ago. I still don't feel like crying.
Thanks for letting me vent. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Posted by bulldog2 on May 6, 2010, at 13:30:58
In reply to Further info re drug treatment and response, posted by StillHopefull on May 6, 2010, at 13:15:55
> I have enjoyed the discourse my original post prompted. The support is wonderful and the discussions are thought-provoking and insightful.
>
> To begin using meds or not - to continue them or not - there is never a simple answer. As a teenager in the late sixties and early seventies I was a regular marijuana user. I don't recall being depressed, although looking back I suffered with ADD (not ADHD - I had the dreamy, calm attention deficit). I continued to use marijuana several times a day until my early 30s - was able to raise a child (quite successfully I can brag), maintain a household (although I wasn't the cleanest house on the block), and go to work as an office manager and bookkeeper. I usually held a job for several years before I got bored and went on to something else. I also did a lot of volunteer work for various agencies as well as my church and my daughter's school. Throughout all these years I always felt tired and "lazy" - I took a lot of naps on the weekend. When I would mention this to my GP, he would test my thyroid and my iron level and assure me nothing was wrong. One night I was complaining to a dr friend who said, "you have depression" What? I don't feel sad. He explained that depression is a physical thing and not in my head. Of course, he didn't know about the pot smoking...
>
> I pretty much poo-pooed that information, but then I went through a very sad and disturbing incident - a dear friend's grown daughter was dying of leukemia. I went to visit and ended up staying and helping care for the patient till she died. She passed away at home, there was a hospice nurse once a day, my friend was occupied with her grandchildren (only 2 & 3 yrs old), so I was the one providing ALL the care. It was a horrific scene at the end - the poor girl screamed in agony and I pumped so much morphine into her port-a-cath that I couldn't believe she didn't die.
>
> Needless to say, after that I was REALLY depressed. This young woman - my friend's daughter with two toddlers - struck down so brutally at only 23 years old. So I saw my first psychiatrist. I took one of those "funny" personality tests - I think it was the MMPI. Then this dr said I needed to stop smoking pot, and we could treat the depression. I was referred to a drug counselor and went through about 6 weeks of outpatient treatment to get off pot. At that point the P-doc started me on trazodone. Looking back, I wonder why he didn't just wait and see what would happen if I stayed clean - without any medication. Or why he didn't recommend regular psychotherapy. I wonder now if I really had Major Depression, or understandable sadness over what had just happened.
>
> Well, that was my beginning with ADs. I saw that first doctor regularly every 3 months for a "medication check". I have to say that the depression lifted - whether it was the meds or just time, who knows. But good ole Dr #1 NEVER suggested that I stop taking the meds. In fact whenever I mentioned that I wasn't feeling quite well, he upped the dose. When he retired I picked Dr #2 from the insurance list and he happily kept my rX refilled without much discussion - and if I mentioned that I felt bad, again he upped the dose. Around this time I read an article about adult ADD in Time magazine. I told the dr that sounded a lot like me and he said, "Well, lets try some Ritalin and see what happens". So that was the start of drug #2. Five mg of Ritalin didn't do much but when it was upped to 10mg, I felt GREAT. But wouldn't anyone feel great on 10mg of Ritalin?
>
> Eventually I was taking 300mg of trazodone and had a LOT of trouble getting up in the morning. The Ritalin helped with that a lot! But I started feeling a little "down", had trouble motivating, and generally felt lazy. At this point I was tapered off trazodone and started on Serzone and I felt "better" again. Why didn't this "expert" pause to consider that I felt down, unmotivated, and lazy because I was sedated with too much trazodone?
>
> And the pattern continued - over time Serzone dose was upped to the max, eventually pooped out and Effexor XR was started. Effexor pooped out and Celexa was started. And I feel sorry for anyone tapering off of Effexor - what a nightmare. Yet "they" continue to say ADs aren't "addictive". WTF. When Celexa started to poop out, desipramine was added. Then when I had trouble sleeping trazodone was thrown in. In the meantime I switched from Ritalin to Adderal XR and was eventually taking 40mg. And I ask again - who wouldn't feel good taking that much speed???? Later the Celexa was replaced with Lexapro... And each time the drugs were changed, it was after the dosages were slowly increased to the maximum (and sometimes beyond) what was recommended by the manufacturer. At the end I was up to 60mg of Lexapro.
>
> My husband got a great job opportunity and we moved across the country. I worried about finding a p-doc that would refill my prescriptions. Hah! No problemo! When I started to feel "bad" again, Dr. #3 suggested increasing my desipramine but wanted me to have an EKG to make sure my heart could handle it. Apparently too much desipramine can be hard on your heart. That was like a wake up call. What was I letting "them" do to me?
>
> Now here is what I wonder - I medicated myself with marijuana for years and managed to function fairly well. I know the pot couldn't have been good for my motivation and I know I would have done better in school without it, but I still managed to maintain a 3.5 grade pt avg, then keep a job, be a mom and wife, and run a household.
>
> Then when I went through a really traumatic experience that would have depressed ANYONE - the first thing suggested by an "expert" was to quit the pot (ok - that was probably a good idea no matter what), and "here, take this pill. It will fix you right up". There was never a suggestion of traditional psychotherapy, and there was NEVER any mention of taking the trazodone for 6 months and then stopping. Why not?
>
> So I wonder if I really needed the meds in the first place. And then all the years - almost 20 YEARS of being on all kinds of different, powerful, psychoactive drugs. How has this changed my brain chemistry? And is it permanent?
>
> I tell you honestly - before I started taking these drugs I NEVER felt as bad as I do right now. And yes, when the drugs were working I must say I felt great. But when the drugs stop working, and I have to go through the withdrawal while stopping one, and enduring the side effects while starting a new drug, I have never felt worse.
>
> I even tried smoking some pot recently and I must say it made me feel a little better. I live in a state that allows pot for medical use so it's pretty easy to get. But there is no consistency in strength, and some of the stuff out there now is SO strong. The second batch I got didn't EVEN have the same "happy" effect - just made me feel dopey and depressed as ever. And how can I look for a job with marijuana in my system - everyone drug tests now...
>
> So now here I am - over 50 yrs old, barely able to function, no motivation, no job, blah, blah, blah... If it wouldn't hurt my family so much I would kill myself. But I would never do that to them. I'm not a cruel person.
>
> Did my years of medication do this to me? Or did my years of medication PREVENT me from feeling like this for all those years? What I do know is that I can't endure much more.
>
> Does someone have any information about how long it takes for my brain to recover from all the drugs? It's been 3 months since I've taken anything, but the naturopath I'm seeing for neurofeedback said she can still see traces of the meds in my EEG. Is that even possible? The skeptic in me doesn't think so...
>
> As a follow-up to my neurofeedback treatment two days ago. I still don't feel like crying.
>
> Thanks for letting me vent. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
>
>
No you can't see traces of meds in an eeg! That statement alone would make me d/c that doc. You need a good diet with plenty of fish oil. A good strong multi vitamin with minerals. Protein supplement. Probaby take a year to recover.Honestly you may never recover to your pre drug years. Do the best you can. Don't be a hero. If you dont't feel well after a year you might consider some med help. It's better than sufering.
Posted by 49er on May 6, 2010, at 17:02:43
In reply to Re: Further info re drug treatment and response, posted by bulldog2 on May 6, 2010, at 13:30:58
Still Hopeful,
The reason you feel so bad is your physician tapered your meds way too fast.
It might take longer than a year for you to start feeling better.
As far as trying supplements, go very slowly as your nervous system is quite sensitive.
If you want to babble me, feel free to. I have tapered off of 4 meds down to 1 which I expect to be off of by the end of this year or next.
49er
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 6, 2010, at 17:17:21
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-crsrowds » Lou Pilder, posted by morganator on May 5, 2010, at 23:30:13
> Lou, my man, not all medications are the poison you make them out to be. Flat out, the depression and anxiety, that may result in being off a medication that has successfully helped one to feel better over the years, can do a whole lot more damage than the medication may do.
>
> You want people who are on medications that feel good and function well and experience very few or no side effects to get off their medication? Maybe I am misinterpreting your message here.
>
> Friends,
It is written here, [...being off a medication...more damage than the medication may do...you want people...to get off their medication?...]Friends,
What I have been saying here is to those that want to get off their drugs. You see, to those that want to get off their drugs I would like to help them overcome the withdrawal that could happen. The withdrawal period could induce one to kill themselves so I am interested in offering a way to those that want to withdrawal to get through that period.
Now this way that I share with those that want to get off their drugs is not of the way of human achievment, so I have no formula like Dr. Ashton or others for that, and no supplements or other drugs to take. In fact, the way that I help people to withdrawal is by divine acomplishment.
To those people that want to withdrawal from drugs by human achievement, I say go to a doctor that specializes in detox/withdrawal.
Now the way of human achievement can be done. The people that have talked with me have tried that and could not acheive withdrawal from the drug. You see, I am talking about not renovating one's person, but to have a transformation to a new person, with a new heart and a new spirit. And to sing a new song.
Lou
Posted by SLS on May 6, 2010, at 17:52:31
In reply to Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by StillHopefull on May 3, 2010, at 20:18:59
Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
If someone is to relapse after discontinuing drug treatment, it will usually happen within the first four months. There is a phenomenon known as withdrawal rebound depression. It occurs upon drug discontinuation, and is transient. I am not convinced that there is a long delay between when a drug is discontinued and when a withdrawal rebound depression begins. So, if you felt well for a few months before feeling depressed again, I would think that to be a relapse rather than a withdrawal rebound.
You don't sound as if you are prepared to restart antidepressants at this point in time. I don't blame you. You invested a lot of time and experienced a lot of pain to get off of them.
- Scott
Posted by StillHopefull on May 6, 2010, at 20:29:45
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN » StillHopefull, posted by SLS on May 6, 2010, at 17:52:31
Thanks for the info - It was back in August when my current meds started to poop out. It was then that I decided to quit and face the unknown consequences of withdrawal and possible relapse, rather than go through the torture of starting new meds. The weeks of trials with side effects, combined with the withdrawal of the old meds was just too much to face. Since I was already depressed due to poop out, I rationalized that I couldn't feel much worse.
Basically I have been depressed since August - some days are better than others. So I can't say whether this is withdrawal rebound depression or relapse. Either way it stinks.
You're right - I'm not prepared to restart ADs at this time. But I will take them again if I feel I have to in order to survive.
Too bad Lou can't wave his magic want and make us all better!!! I'm all for uplifting the spirit, yada, yada, yada, and I DO believe that a good attitude helps, and I DO believe that God can work miracles. BUT I also know that no magic wand or good attitude is going to help a diabetic survive without insulin... And I know that some people must have their brain chemistry altered in order to survive.
Thanks!
Posted by chujoe on May 6, 2010, at 20:53:29
In reply to Lou's reply- » chujoe, posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 21:30:32
Lou, you'll have to do more than post sensationalistic videos to convince me that the careful, supervised use of psych drugs is the evil you say it is. There's a weird subtext to that vid, too: pleasure is bad for you, pleasure is bad. You didn't answer my other questions by the way.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 6, 2010, at 21:49:12
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-, posted by chujoe on May 6, 2010, at 20:53:29
> Lou, you'll have to do more than post sensationalistic videos to convince me that the careful, supervised use of psych drugs is the evil you say it is. There's a weird subtext to that vid, too: pleasure is bad for you, pleasure is bad. You didn't answer my other questions by the way.
chugo,
You wrote,[...convince me..the evil you (redacted by respondent)...a (redacted by respondent) subtext to that vid...You didn't...]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A.What criteria , if any, do you use to write that you think that I am trying to convince anyone here?
B. What do you mean by evivl?
C. what are the criteria that you use, if any, to say that the vid has a subtext that pleasure is bad?
D. What questions did I not answer that you would like answers to?
E. other questions if the above are answerd
Lou
Posted by morganator on May 6, 2010, at 22:06:45
In reply to Lou's response-aynupsong » morganator, posted by Lou Pilder on May 6, 2010, at 17:17:21
> > Lou, my man, not all medications are the poison you make them out to be. Flat out, the depression and anxiety, that may result in being off a medication that has successfully helped one to feel better over the years, can do a whole lot more damage than the medication may do.
> >
> > You want people who are on medications that feel good and function well and experience very few or no side effects to get off their medication? Maybe I am misinterpreting your message here.
> >
> > Friends,
> It is written here, [...being off a medication...more damage than the medication may do...you want people...to get off their medication?...]
>
> Friends,
> What I have been saying here is to those that want to get off their drugs. You see, to those that want to get off their drugs I would like to help them overcome the withdrawal that could happen. The withdrawal period could induce one to kill themselves so I am interested in offering a way to those that want to withdrawal to get through that period.
> Now this way that I share with those that want to get off their drugs is not of the way of human achievment, so I have no formula like Dr. Ashton or others for that, and no supplements or other drugs to take. In fact, the way that I help people to withdrawal is by divine acomplishment.
> To those people that want to withdrawal from drugs by human achievement, I say go to a doctor that specializes in detox/withdrawal.
> Now the way of human achievement can be done. The people that have talked with me have tried that and could not acheive withdrawal from the drug. You see, I am talking about not renovating one's person, but to have a transformation to a new person, with a new heart and a new spirit. And to sing a new song.
> LouWhen I quit SSRIs the first 3 times, I just quit and did not withdrawal at all. No divine intervention or help by a doctor. I think there are many out there that ween off or quit cold turkey without any serious withdrawals.
I believe people can use their minds and the power of positive thinking in some cases to get threw medication withdrawal, I'm just not so sure about divine intervention and spiritual enlightenment.
Posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2010, at 22:11:18
In reply to Re: Lou's response-aynupsong, posted by morganator on May 6, 2010, at 22:06:45
Your're right I've just stopped many antidepressants. No problems Phillipa
Posted by 49er on May 7, 2010, at 5:35:01
In reply to Re: Lou's response-aynupsong, posted by morganator on May 6, 2010, at 22:06:45
> When I quit SSRIs the first 3 times, I just quit and did not withdrawal at all. No divine intervention or help by a doctor. I think there are many out there that ween off or quit cold turkey without any serious withdrawals.
>
> I believe people can use their minds and the power of positive thinking in some cases to get threw medication withdrawal, I'm just not so sure about divine intervention and spiritual enlightenment.Hi Morganator,
Joseph Glenmullen, who is not antimeds, has said that 70% of people who cold turkey ADs have withdrawal problems.
In all honestly, I think we really don't know the true statistics of who has problems with withdrawals and who doesn't.
Many people who have problems mistakenly think it is a return of their illness and don't say anything to their doctors. And if they do, the doctors mistakenly claim their illness has returned. Remember, alot of the literature says that withdrawal symptoms pass in two weeks.
I agree that having a positive attitude helps. But it is not going to make withdrawal symptoms go away. Only time does that.
Posted by chujoe on May 7, 2010, at 7:50:14
In reply to Lou's request-leeroybrwn » chujoe, posted by Lou Pilder on May 6, 2010, at 21:49:12
> > Lou, you'll have to do more than post sensationalistic videos to convince me that the careful, supervised use of psych drugs is the evil you say it is. There's a weird subtext to that vid, too: pleasure is bad for you, pleasure is bad. You didn't answer my other questions by the way.
>
> chugo,
> You wrote,[...convince me..the evil you (redacted by respondent)...a (redacted by respondent) subtext to that vid...You didn't...]
> I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A.What criteria , if any, do you use to write that you think that I am trying to convince anyone here?
> B. What do you mean by evivl?
> C. what are the criteria that you use, if any, to say that the vid has a subtext that pleasure is bad?
> D. What questions did I not answer that you would like answers to?
> E. other questions if the above are answerd
> LouLou, Bad, Bad Leroy Brown? Honestly, Lou, I'm not sure our world views have enough in common for us to have a productive conversation, but let me begin by saying I think you provide a useful voice on this forum -- a voice that is more than skeptical about the use of psychiatric drugs. Having said that, I think you'd be even more effective if you were less absolutist in the expression of your views and were able to consider the validity of ideas presented by those who disagree with you. I also fear that some of the links you post might lead someone who really needs to take medication to not take it, with terrible consequences.
But, as for your questions: 1. You didn't answer when I asked you whether you had ever taken psych drugs and were speaking from experience, or from a more intellectual orientation. You're free of course to decline to answer this. 2. The video you linked to was produced for a popular entertainment television channel and as such was designed to attract viewers by creating a combination of fear and fascination -- as well as a comfortable sense of moral superiority among those who can say, "Well, I'd never take that drug!" From the faux-scientific graphics to the intonations of the narrator, this program exudes sensationalism. 3. By "evil," I just mean the usual dictionary definition, something like "really bad." 4. By what criteria do I believe you are trying to convince anyone here? You've said yourself that you want to "help" and "save" people -- how could you do this without "convincing" them. There is also the fact that you only post on one topic, rather than joining in several conversations from several points of view. Your repetitive and highly similar posts -- regardless of the context in which they appear -- lead me to believe you are trying to convince people. Which is fine: you are perfectly within your rights and within the guidelines of the forum, as far as I can tell as a newcomer here.
Posted by Phillipa on May 7, 2010, at 11:25:01
In reply to Re: Lou's request-leeroybrwn » Lou Pilder, posted by chujoe on May 7, 2010, at 7:50:14
Most definitely agree with above post. Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 7, 2010, at 13:55:49
In reply to Re: Lou's request- » Lou Pilder, posted by morganator on May 5, 2010, at 23:40:41
> This means zilch, nada, nothing, zero, squat.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
I do hope that you choose to remain a member of this community and that this community helps you, if needed, to avoid future blocks.
Lou, I'm also sorry if you felt hurt.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by europerep on May 7, 2010, at 14:00:59
In reply to Re: Lou's request-leeroybrwn » chujoe, posted by Phillipa on May 7, 2010, at 11:25:01
> Most definitely agree with above post. Phillipa
yap, me too..
to be honest, I find lou's post actually a little bit scary.. the deliberate choice of a very developed, but mechanically applied vocabulary while not showing the slightest signs of empathy or "feelings".. to me, it comes across quite frightening..
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 7, 2010, at 14:09:51
In reply to Re: Lou's request-leeroybrwn » Lou Pilder, posted by chujoe on May 7, 2010, at 7:50:14
> > > Lou, you'll have to do more than post sensationalistic videos to convince me that the careful, supervised use of psych drugs is the evil you say it is. There's a weird subtext to that vid, too: pleasure is bad for you, pleasure is bad. You didn't answer my other questions by the way.
> >
> > chugo,
> > You wrote,[...convince me..the evil you (redacted by respondent)...a (redacted by respondent) subtext to that vid...You didn't...]
> > I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> > A.What criteria , if any, do you use to write that you think that I am trying to convince anyone here?
> > B. What do you mean by evivl?
> > C. what are the criteria that you use, if any, to say that the vid has a subtext that pleasure is bad?
> > D. What questions did I not answer that you would like answers to?
> > E. other questions if the above are answerd
> > Lou
>
> Lou, Bad, Bad Leroy Brown? Honestly, Lou, I'm not sure our world views have enough in common for us to have a productive conversation, but let me begin by saying I think you provide a useful voice on this forum -- a voice that is more than skeptical about the use of psychiatric drugs. Having said that, I think you'd be even more effective if you were less absolutist in the expression of your views and were able to consider the validity of ideas presented by those who disagree with you. I also fear that some of the links you post might lead someone who really needs to take medication to not take it, with terrible consequences.
>
> But, as for your questions: 1. You didn't answer when I asked you whether you had ever taken psych drugs and were speaking from experience, or from a more intellectual orientation. You're free of course to decline to answer this. 2. The video you linked to was produced for a popular entertainment television channel and as such was designed to attract viewers by creating a combination of fear and fascination -- as well as a comfortable sense of moral superiority among those who can say, "Well, I'd never take that drug!" From the faux-scientific graphics to the intonations of the narrator, this program exudes sensationalism. 3. By "evil," I just mean the usual dictionary definition, something like "really bad." 4. By what criteria do I believe you are trying to convince anyone here? You've said yourself that you want to "help" and "save" people -- how could you do this without "convincing" them. There is also the fact that you only post on one topic, rather than joining in several conversations from several points of view. Your repetitive and highly similar posts -- regardless of the context in which they appear -- lead me to believe you are trying to convince people. Which is fine: you are perfectly within your rights and within the guidelines of the forum, as far as I can tell as a newcomer here.cj,
You wrote,[...some of the links..might lead someone..to not take...].
I am not telling people to not take their drugs, but to make their own decision as to if the benefits outweigh the risk.. I am more concerned about those here that post to others to take drugs that the FDA has said has the potential to induce a mind-altered state for the one talking the drug to kill themselves. I am more concerned about members here that post to others to take a drug that when combined with what they are taking could kill them. I am more concerned that members here post to others to take a drug when they are depressed that the FDA says could put them in a dream-like state and kill themselves or others. I am more concerned that members here tell others to take a drug that is addicting, which could have the potential to induce a lifetime misery or cause them to kill themselves from being in the withdrawal. I am more concerned that the psychiatrist here is allowing an expert to say that a drug that has been recalled due to that it could kill the taker of the drug via liver toxicity ,to allow that psychiatrist to say that it is a good drug. I am more concerned that there are many members here that have killed themselves and that I am threatened with expulsion from this community if I was to post the foundation of my faith which I think could save lives if I could post that what believe that the God that I give service and worship to has revealed to me a commamndment to me that (the foundation of Judaism). If I talk to anyone about the members here that have killed themselves, I show them the posts here where members are allowed to give advice to others to take these drugs and the owner/oportator does not intervene with a warning...but I sometimes do. I am more concerned that there are pages upon pages of outstanding requests from me to Mr. Hsiung that if those requests were posted answers to, that I think that I could have a better opportunity to save lives here. I am more concerned that a video by The National Geographic Society could be (redacted by respondent) in which the facts in the video have been verified. I am more concerned that the video{ mice and meth} has infomation about amphetamine and there are drugs told to others to take here that are chemically couusins of amphetamine or amphetamine itself, and that our young people are advised to take it here by some members. I am more concerned that the fact that around 36,000 people each year die from psychotropic drugs in some way. I am concerned that the makers of the psychotropic drugs have been called in that they have left out research that was not in their favor of their drug. I am concerned that some members here t post advice to others to take a drug that could not (redacted by rspondent) for that purpose. I am more concerned that research shows that it could be considered that antidepressants are no better than placebo except in one case where that is under review. I am more concerned that one here would post to another to take a drug that could cause a life-ruining condition that the person could suffer endless torment until the internal restlessnes stops, but tardive dyskinesia is generally not reversible and neuroleptic malignant syndrom could be fatal. I am more concerned that the doctors that prescribe these chemicals are not requiered to show the videos that I have posted to the potential user of the drug so that they could have the opportunity to make IMO a more informed decision as to take such drug or not. And there are more videos that I have not posted for they show such horrific disfigurments and death that I can not post them.
If I am called by someone greater than me to give an account of what I have tried to warn people about, and the survivors of those that have killed themselves while on these mind-altering chemicals are there, I think that they will say that they find no fault with me. And if I am called to testify against the drug companies, I will say to forgive them, for they (redacted by respondent).
Lou
Posted by chujoe on May 7, 2010, at 14:19:45
In reply to Lou's request-thynohnhot » chujoe, posted by Lou Pilder on May 7, 2010, at 14:09:51
Well, Lou, I'm not going to argue with God, who you say is speaking through you, because I don't believe in God. Henceforth, let's agree to ignore each other's posts, okay?
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