![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rovers95 on January 17, 2007, at 19:39:51
Hi, have recently got hold of some ket and have tried it with great success for my depression and CFS.
Is there anyone who has had long term sucess with this - i am just doing low intranasal doses so far, think i read somewhere a bi-polar guy who had been doing it succesfully for 25 years!!!
What are the risks???????? Do u think its worth it?!
mark
Posted by Phillipa on January 17, 2007, at 19:59:00
In reply to Ketamine for depression.......any experiences?????, posted by rovers95 on January 17, 2007, at 19:39:51
Is that the horse tranquilizer. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Love Phillipa
Posted by rovers95 on January 18, 2007, at 2:13:51
In reply to Re: Ketamine for depression.......any experiences????? » rovers95, posted by Phillipa on January 17, 2007, at 19:59:00
> Is that the horse tranquilizer. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Love Phillipa
Yeah but in smaller doses it has proven 2 be an effective antidepressant. I am only took small bumps (10-20mg), whereas 2 enter a "k-hole" around 100mg would be needed, and even more 2 knock u out!!!
mark
Posted by yxibow on January 18, 2007, at 10:40:08
In reply to Ketamine for depression.......any experiences?????, posted by rovers95 on January 17, 2007, at 19:39:51
> Hi, have recently got hold of some ket and have tried it with great success for my depression and CFS.
>
> Is there anyone who has had long term sucess with this - i am just doing low intranasal doses so far, think i read somewhere a bi-polar guy who had been doing it succesfully for 25 years!!!
>
> What are the risks???????? Do u think its worth it?!
>
> mark
Why are we discussing the risks of illicit Ketamine use by snorting it? The risks first of all are a deviated septum from hucking freebase up your nose. I can't believe I'm actually typing this. And yes, a "k-hole" at some point could happen, it isn't predictable, you're not a cat or a horse, a child, or a special need patient being monitored by an anesthesiologist IN SURGERY to prevent you from FORGETTING WHO YOU ARE with a dissociative substance.
Ai ya. This is a non starter even if you know someone who has stolen black market Ketamine supplies and "used it successfully."
While we're at it, why not discuss the use of Dextromethorphan or PCP for depression. Um... no I don't think so.
Posted by rovers95 on January 18, 2007, at 11:02:09
In reply to Re: Ketamine for depression.......any experiences? » rovers95, posted by yxibow on January 18, 2007, at 10:40:08
> > Hi, have recently got hold of some ket and have tried it with great success for my depression and CFS.
> >
> > Is there anyone who has had long term sucess with this - i am just doing low intranasal doses so far, think i read somewhere a bi-polar guy who had been doing it succesfully for 25 years!!!
> >
> > What are the risks???????? Do u think its worth it?!
> >
> > mark
>
>
> Why are we discussing the risks of illicit Ketamine use by snorting it? The risks first of all are a deviated septum from hucking freebase up your nose. I can't believe I'm actually typing this. And yes, a "k-hole" at some point could happen, it isn't predictable, you're not a cat or a horse, a child, or a special need patient being monitored by an anesthesiologist IN SURGERY to prevent you from FORGETTING WHO YOU ARE with a dissociative substance.
>
>
> Ai ya. This is a non starter even if you know someone who has stolen black market Ketamine supplies and "used it successfully."
>
>
> While we're at it, why not discuss the use of Dextromethorphan or PCP for depression. Um... no I don't think so.www.nimh.nih.gov/press/ketamine.cfm
These qualifed professionals must have just done this study 4 a laugh then!!
Goldstein used to use in his patients with CFS aswell..........your not gona "k-hole" at 10mg either!!
JahL posted previously saying his brother was using it with success!!
Maybe if meds actually worked i wouldn't have to explore this route!!
mark
Posted by Quintal on January 18, 2007, at 20:28:20
In reply to Re: Ketamine for depression.......any experiences? » rovers95, posted by yxibow on January 18, 2007, at 10:40:08
>Why are we discussing the risks of illicit Ketamine use by snorting it
Probably because it has been found an effective treatment for depression, rovers95 has illicit access to it and is curious.
>The risks first of all are a deviated septum from hucking freebase up your nose.
Unlikely with ketamine at low doses.
> And yes, a "k-hole" at some point could happen, it isn't predictable, you're not a cat or a horse, a child, or a special need patient
Treatment isn't predictable for animals and children either. People still get stuck in K-holes when ketamine is used in medicine. I saw a programme a while ago where a guy was given ketamine for pain after breaking his leg as an alternative to morphine and he started having and out-of-body experience. The doctors calmed him with midazolam.>I can't believe I'm actually typing this.
That's alright. You may be having a dissociative reaction. Try to stay calm, take deep breaths and back away from the computer.
>being monitored by an anesthesiologist IN SURGERY
Rovers95 isn't using anaesthetic doses of ketamine.
>to prevent you from FORGETTING WHO YOU ARE with a dissociative substance.
That may be part of the therapeutic action of dissociatives - temporarily being lifted out of ego games and returning to everyday life with fresh eyes. You seem to find the idea of breaking rules and transcending ego threatening yxibow but others may not. It is a good idea to have a 'sitter' to supervise while taking dissociative drugs like ketamine though.
>While we're at it, why not discuss the use of Dextromethorphan or PCP for depression. Um... no I don't think so.
Why on Earth not yxibow? We already have discussions on buprenorphine, Adderall, codeine, and Ritalin in the treatment of depression. I think it would be very interesting to hear from people who have taken PCP and DXM (I have a bottle in my cupboard for that very purpose).
Q
Posted by rovers95 on January 18, 2007, at 21:13:21
In reply to Re: Ketamine for depression.......any experiences? » yxibow, posted by Quintal on January 18, 2007, at 20:28:20
> >I can't believe I'm actually typing this.
>
> That's alright. You may be having a dissociative reaction. Try to stay calm, take deep breaths and back away from the computer.Haha, can't stop laughing at this!! Thanks quintal!!
The point i would like to make is surely it is better (and safer!!) for me to use internet sources to find out the pros and cons rather than jump into something on a whim and pay the consequences!! Thats the reason i came on here, not to have someone come on all agressive in reply!!
mark
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 18, 2007, at 23:18:33
In reply to Re: Ketamine for depression.......any experiences?, posted by rovers95 on January 18, 2007, at 21:13:21
I agree, they are currently doing trials for depression and having good success.. unfortunately the US gov. will probably never give us access to it, but its interesting to hear that it works for you. Keep us posted on it.
JB
Posted by yxibow on January 19, 2007, at 10:04:56
In reply to Re: Ketamine for depression.......any experiences? » yxibow, posted by Quintal on January 18, 2007, at 20:28:20
> >Why are we discussing the risks of illicit Ketamine use by snorting it
>
> Probably because it has been found an effective treatment for depression, rovers95 has illicit access to it and is curious.
So we can discuss cocaine, crack, crystal meth, stolen veterinary medications, stolen pharmaceuticals, and every other hard street drug as great opportunities for a board that I thought was apparently devoted to discussion of legal substances ?>
> >The risks first of all are a deviated septum from hucking freebase up your nose.
>
> Unlikely with ketamine at low doses.No comment. Let's all freebase Cymbalta.
>
> > And yes, a "k-hole" at some point could happen, it isn't predictable, you're not a cat or a horse, a child, or a special need patient
>
> Treatment isn't predictable for animals and children either. People still get stuck in K-holes when ketamine is used in medicine. I saw a programme a while ago where a guy was given ketamine for pain after breaking his leg as an alternative to morphine and he started having and out-of-body experience. The doctors calmed him with midazolam.Yes... In medicine. Where there are trained doctors to do this, not watchers and Erowid Vault experiences.
> >I can't believe I'm actually typing this.
>
> That's alright. You may be having a dissociative reaction. Try to stay calm, take deep breaths and back away from the computer.Please be civil in your conversations. I am offended and it seems you have a vendetta against my postings on the board.
> >being monitored by an anesthesiologist IN SURGERY
>
> Rovers95 isn't using anaesthetic doses of ketamine.How do you know? This is just claimed.
> >to prevent you from FORGETTING WHO YOU ARE with a dissociative substance.
>
> That may be part of the therapeutic action of dissociatives - temporarily being lifted out of ego games and returning to everyday life with fresh eyes. You seem to find the idea of breaking rules and transcending ego threatening yxibow but others may not. It is a good idea to have a 'sitter' to supervise while taking dissociative drugs like ketamine though.
>
> >While we're at it, why not discuss the use of Dextromethorphan or PCP for depression. Um... no I don't think so.
>
> Why on Earth not yxibow? We already have discussions on buprenorphine, Adderall, codeine, and Ritalin in the treatment of depression. I think it would be very interesting to hear from people who have taken PCP and DXM (I have a bottle in my cupboard for that very purpose).
Well, then take that bottle and go Robotripping if you want and vomit and have all the effects of downing a bottle of dextromethorphan, but please don't use my tax dollars to bail yourself out at the hosital.
Good heavens this board is going wierd.
Posted by ClearSkies on January 19, 2007, at 11:09:28
In reply to Please be civil. » Quintal, posted by yxibow on January 19, 2007, at 10:04:56
> > >Why are we discussing the risks of illicit Ketamine use by snorting it
> >
> > Probably because it has been found an effective treatment for depression, rovers95 has illicit access to it and is curious.
>
>
> So we can discuss cocaine, crack, crystal meth, stolen veterinary medications, stolen pharmaceuticals, and every other hard street drug as great opportunities for a board that I thought was apparently devoted to discussion of legal substances ?
>
> >I'd like to point out that there is a board here for discussing non-prescribed substances.
ClearSkies
Posted by Quintal on January 19, 2007, at 11:42:05
In reply to The Substance board » yxibow, posted by ClearSkies on January 19, 2007, at 11:09:28
I was about to suggest that ClearSkies, but I think rovers95 was referring to the use of ketamine in the treatment of depression - although ketamine is not yet licensed for this purpose, many substances that have no current license in the US are often discussed here. For that reason I think the thread is more appropriate here rather than the 'Substance Use' board where the main topic is the misuse of illicit substances for recreational pursuits.
Q
Posted by Quintal on January 19, 2007, at 12:17:54
In reply to Please be civil. » Quintal, posted by yxibow on January 19, 2007, at 10:04:56
>No comment. Let's all freebase Cymbalta.
So you did comment afterall? I hope you don't take this as being uncivil, but I think you're being petty and childish there yxibow. Cocaine can cause a deviated septum because of its vasoconstrictor effect, which causes tissue damage when blood flow is reduced for long periods of time. I don't think ketamine is such a powerful vasoconstrictor.
>Yes... In medicine. Where there are trained doctors to do this, not watchers and Erowid Vault experiences.
The doctors in that scenario were using high anaesthetic doses of IV ketamine along with other substances. The guy still suffered a severe reaction that would have happened wherever he happened to take the ketamine. The 'k-hole' experience may be terrifying for some, others actually like it in a perverse thrill-seeking way, the same way some people like extreme sports, bungee jumping, hang gliding and mountain climbing.
>Please be civil in your conversations. I am offended and it seems you have a vendetta against my postings on the board.
Likewise yxibow. Rovers95 said he found your post aggressive. I could say you yourself have a vendetta against me and other posters who believe in the potential of some drugs of abuse in the treatment of psychiatric disorders, but that would be sulking. I feel you've attempted to silence me and stifle threads on these topics on several occasions.
>How do you know? This is just claimed.
I have no reason to distrust rovers95 on the amount of ketamine he is using and the argument is hypothetical - he may not be using ketamine at all, just opening the subject up for discussion. At least he's not advocating the use of large anaesthetic doses.
>Well, then take that bottle and go Robotripping if you want and vomit and have all the effects of downing a bottle of dextromethorphan, but please don't use my tax dollars to bail yourself out at the hospital.
I think you've been very rude to me (and to quote Squiggles) presumptuous of my intentions. I would not take DXM with the intention of going 'Robotripping', nor would I be foolish enough to admit myself to hospital with a simple case of nausea and vomiting. All drugs have side effects. Don't worry, I live in the UK so none of your precious tax dollars would be affected in any way even if I did. Treatment is free here in any case.
>Good heavens this board is going weird.
No it isn't. This board is simply exploring new and unconventional ways of treating depression. That may seem strange and offensive to you but you are under no obligation to read the threads or participate in the discussion. Please don't ruin the thread for people who would like to discuss the use of ketamine in depression.
Q
Posted by rovers95 on January 19, 2007, at 13:10:48
In reply to Re: Please be civil. » yxibow, posted by Quintal on January 19, 2007, at 12:17:54
Why would i want to use it in anaesthetic doses??!!! I really am not a thrill seeker and not someone who generally dabbles in recreational drugs!!
Here is another follow up study currently recruiting treatment resistant depressives for ketamine injection, they are also studying the ability of lamictal to attentuate negative psychological effects, and also riluzoles ability as an antidepressant.
http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00419003
I really dont know what xyibow's issue is with this discussion, as we are talking about a drug that seems to be undoubtedly succesful in treating a number of treatment resistant individuals!!
mark
Posted by yxibow on January 19, 2007, at 13:17:42
In reply to Re: Please be civil. » yxibow, posted by Quintal on January 19, 2007, at 12:17:54
> >No comment. Let's all freebase Cymbalta.
>
> So you did comment afterall? I hope you don't take this as being uncivil, but I think you're being petty and childish there yxibow. Cocaine can cause a deviated septum because of its vasoconstrictor effect, which causes tissue damage when blood flow is reduced for long periods of time. I don't think ketamine is such a powerful vasoconstrictor.
Fair enough. Still not a great route for drug entry.>
> >Yes... In medicine. Where there are trained doctors to do this, not watchers and Erowid Vault experiences.
>
> The doctors in that scenario were using high anaesthetic doses of IV ketamine along with other substances. The guy still suffered a severe reaction that would have happened wherever he happened to take the ketamine. The 'k-hole' experience may be terrifying for some, others actually like it in a perverse thrill-seeking way, the same way some people like extreme sports, bungee jumping, hang gliding and mountain climbing.
And we have society sometimes to protect us from ourselves, and business to protect us from others, like hang gliding school, rock climbing school, and bungee jumping experts -- and some people still die even with that.
> >Please be civil in your conversations. I am offended and it seems you have a vendetta against my postings on the board.
>
> Likewise yxibow. Rovers95 said he found your post aggressive. I could say you yourself have a vendetta against me and other posters who believe in the potential of some drugs of abuse in the treatment of psychiatric disorders, but that would be sulking. I feel you've attempted to silence me and stifle threads on these topics on several occasions.
I haven't attempted to stifle you, I have posed arguments which you have responded to and I have actually agreed with a few of the ideas, like the one in "a controlled setting."
> >How do you know? This is just claimed.
>
> I have no reason to distrust rovers95 on the amount of ketamine he is using and the argument is hypothetical - he may not be using ketamine at all, just opening the subject up for discussion. At least he's not advocating the use of large anaesthetic doses.
That's good. But while this is a worldwide discussion, these substances remain prescription and for limited purposes here, and ketamine is largely stolen and diverted from veterinary use, if it hasn't already been fabricated from scratch. This leaves this board unfortunately open for liability as well, even if it is protected speech.
> >Well, then take that bottle and go Robotripping if you want and vomit and have all the effects of downing a bottle of dextromethorphan, but please don't use my tax dollars to bail yourself out at the hospital.
>
> I think you've been very rude to me (and to quote Squiggles) presumptuous of my intentions. I would not take DXM with the intention of going 'Robotripping', nor would I be foolish enough to admit myself to hospital with a simple case of nausea and vomiting. All drugs have side effects. Don't worry, I live in the UK so none of your precious tax dollars would be affected in any way even if I did. Treatment is free here in any case.
I would love universal health care -- go tell our... well I'll leave politics elsewhere, legislators.
> >Good heavens this board is going weird.
>
> No it isn't. This board is simply exploring new and unconventional ways of treating depression. That may seem strange and offensive to you but you are under no obligation to read the threads or participate in the discussion. Please don't ruin the thread for people who would like to discuss the use of ketamine in depression.
How am I ruining the thread by expressing my opinion that one admitted having illicitly obtained ketamine? That's my only comment. I've seen people using it and at least one who went into a k-hole, I don't get the use of it, but I am entitled to my opinion.At any rate, I went off myself, but the both of you were making a mockery of me, and I quote:
> >I can't believe I'm actually typing this.
>
> That's alright. You may be having a dissociative reaction. Try to stay calm, take deep breaths and back away from the computer.Haha, can't stop laughing at this!! Thanks quintal!!
If you want to make comments about childishness, the schoolyard gangup of oh yeah, that's funny to mock yxibow as well, I consider just as childish.
Let's both be civil and I will agree to stay out of your alternative discussions as much as I can because we obviously both have very different opinions on things like Ketamine, PCP, DXM, which I would consider even more dangerous than the alternative use of codeine and morphine/morphine derivatives.And the "...to hear from people who have taken PCP and DXM (I have a bottle in my cupboard for that very purpose)"
I may have misinterpreted, but the reason that we have to sign poison pads for dextromethorphan and pseudoephedrine in the US, because they're restricted to sale and age, for their intended purpose, is because people do all sorts of things with them like.... make crystal meth and.... go on dissociative highs at 15 and use whatever they can get including Coricin which would contain dangerous levels of multiple substances at that rate.So I recant that -- if its not an issue in England, go ahead and use it for what you want, but know how debasing in the US it is to sign for poor quality cough syrup that was formerly purely OTC. And in England you also have the option of signing off for codeine -- that left the US a long time ago because people were using it for purposes unintended at doses unintended and getting ill among other reasons.
Let's leave it there and not make things personal.
-- Jay.
Posted by rovers95 on January 19, 2007, at 13:19:57
In reply to New ketamine study, posted by rovers95 on January 19, 2007, at 13:10:48
Here is the recent ketamine study.......im sure you will agree the results are very promising.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 19, 2007, at 17:19:31
In reply to Re: Please be civil. » yxibow, posted by Quintal on January 19, 2007, at 12:17:54
> I think you've been very rude to me
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if you yourself feel putdown or accused. As Dr. Bob has said, "Two wrongs don't make a right."
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Psycho-Babble Administration and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action. If you wish, you can appeal this decision to him.
Thanks,
deputy gg
Posted by gardenergirl on January 19, 2007, at 17:26:43
In reply to Please be civil. » Quintal, posted by yxibow on January 19, 2007, at 10:04:56
> ...it seems you have a vendetta against my postings on the board.
Please don't jump to conclusions about others.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Psycho-Babble Administration and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action. If you wish, you can appeal this decision to him.
Thanks,
deputy gg
Posted by gardenergirl on January 19, 2007, at 17:29:32
In reply to Re: Ketamine for depression.......any experiences?, posted by rovers95 on January 18, 2007, at 21:13:21
> Thats the reason i came on here, not to have someone come on all agressive in reply!!Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if you yourself feel putdown or accused. As Dr. Bob has said, "Two wrongs don't make a right."
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Psycho-Babble Administration and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action. If you wish, you can appeal this decision to him.
Thanks,
deputy gg
Posted by gardenergirl on January 19, 2007, at 17:32:19
In reply to Re: Please be civil. » Quintal, posted by yxibow on January 19, 2007, at 13:17:42
>
> Let's both be civil and I will agree to stay out of your alternative discussions as much as I can> Let's leave it there and not make things personal.
>
> -- Jay.Thanks for posting this, Jay.
gg
Posted by rovers95 on January 20, 2007, at 3:23:13
In reply to Thank you » yxibow, posted by gardenergirl on January 19, 2007, at 17:32:19
n/m
Posted by djmmm on January 20, 2007, at 11:01:29
In reply to Re: Ketamine for depression.......any experiences????? » rovers95, posted by Phillipa on January 17, 2007, at 19:59:00
> Is that the horse tranquilizer. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Love Phillipa
That is somewhat of a misnomer. Ketamine is used as an anesthetic in the young and elderly, because it lacks the cardiovascular depressive effects of other more popular anesthetics.
It is, however, one of the most popular anesthetics in veterinary medicine
Posted by tessellated on January 20, 2007, at 14:49:54
In reply to Re: Ketamine for depression.......any experiences?????, posted by djmmm on January 20, 2007, at 11:01:29
i'm curious as to how one would differentiate the "psychological" from the "physiological" anti-depressant effect. the studies discuss the physiolgical NMDA antagonism in a rather novel fashion that seem to be pointing to a sub-psychedelic effect.
so how does one differentiate the altered ego awareness from the neurochemical alterations?
Posted by KayeBaby on January 22, 2007, at 2:42:28
In reply to Re: Please be civil. » Quintal, posted by yxibow on January 19, 2007, at 13:17:42
>>And in England you also have the option of >signing off for codeine -- that left the US a >long time ago because people were using it for >purposes unintended at doses unintended and >getting ill among other reasons.
Nope. That wasn't the reason.
It would not be very rational to hold everyone responsible for the actions of a few so I would say that the reason we cannot get certain substances on our signature it that we have allowed ignorant legislatures to pass unfair laws.
Let us know how the Ketamine experiment goes.
If I needed it and it seemed promising to me I would not allow society to protect me from myself.Good luck!
Kaye
Posted by yxibow on January 22, 2007, at 5:53:17
In reply to Re: Please be civil., posted by KayeBaby on January 22, 2007, at 2:42:28
> >>And in England you also have the option of >signing off for codeine -- that left the US a >long time ago because people were using it for >purposes unintended at doses unintended and >getting ill among other reasons.
>
>
> Nope. That wasn't the reason.
>
> It would not be very rational to hold everyone responsible for the actions of a few so I would say that the reason we cannot get certain substances on our signature it that we have allowed ignorant legislatures to pass unfair laws.
Perhaps -- there are a lot of unfair laws.It may not be rational, but you can't buy more than 3.2 grams of Sudafed per day today in the US, and you have to sign special new touch pads under penalty of federal law. The same goes for dextromethorphan, and neither are available for people under 18. So if you're an emancipated minor with bad allergies, you're s.o.l.
And the pharmacies are still so disorganized that you might as well go to the counter because the "cards" that used to be in the places where you could just pick up a 96 of pseudoephedrine are never updated with the behind the counter supply. In fact, you rarely see 96 any more, so you have to pay even more for your pseudoephedrine. And some of them aren't even aware that you can buy up to 3.2 grams until they run your multiple boxes of whatever they happen to have behind the counter.
And that is holding everybody for the actions of a few -- the sheer explosion in the midwest (literally sometimes in meth houses) of illicit methamphetamine production from pseudoephedrine destined for local and large cities, and the serious injuries and deaths of teenagers who have downed Coricidin for DXM s* and giggles.
So we now have phenylephrine (Sudafed PE), otherwise previously known as Neosynephrine, which has been touted as a "great substitute", which by various medical accounts doesn't work at all. And of all absurdity, people of any age, even obvious senior citizens, have to sign for dextromethorphan.
So, how's about them apples. Like it or lump it, the DEA/NIDA is here to stay whether I agree with them or not (which I don't.)-- tidings.
Posted by Declan on January 22, 2007, at 13:56:11
In reply to Re: Please be civil. » KayeBaby, posted by yxibow on January 22, 2007, at 5:53:17
You can't get Sudafed here without a script. Maybe not at all?
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.