![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 27 to 51 of 143. Go back in thread:
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 26, 2006, at 1:47:52
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » Devastated Mother, posted by gardenergirl on January 25, 2006, at 22:57:53
Yes, I know about the forms. Every other doctor he had, when he was asked, he willingly signed the form for us to be told. I don't think she asked him, because he would have signed it.
Yeah, just a mistake on her part. And it only cost him his life. Oh well...
Posted by summerflowers on January 26, 2006, at 2:37:38
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 26, 2006, at 1:47:52
> Yes, I know about the forms. Every other doctor he had, when he was asked, he willingly signed the form for us to be told. I don't think she asked him, because he would have signed it.
>
> Yeah, just a mistake on her part. And it only cost him his life. Oh well...
>Two years ago,my partner of 16 years who I love and are so close to,(and the father of our 5 children) went through a rougth patch.Nothing he couldnt usually deal with.In the past,he had tackled problems,got through them,he also spent time in a rehab,a place where he came out stronger,so much healing went on.They didnt just deal with the alcaholism,they also dealt with everything deeper,including a chilhood of severe abuse.For 6 years he held onto the strength they gave him,and the skills taught,in how to survive in life.So,this time,he was advised by someone to see a therepist.When he went to the place he was given a psychiatrist,we didnt know the difference.This lady started bringing up his past,the past which he had dealt with allready in rehab.It all got dragged up again,and all the emotions with it.She diagnosed him PTSD,and gave him drugs to help,aropax and epilim.Each day went by and his whole character seemed to become possesed,rage came into the picture,character changes where he started acting really narrsistic.I told him I was scared,told him he had to stop taking the drugs,4 weeks he was on them,then he attempted suicide.He tried 4 ways but he amazingly survived.He has permanant damage to his brain,liver,and emotions.They dont seem to care.They also didnt involve me in anything,I was just nothing to this woman,she thought she knew him better than me for some reason.My heart goes out to you.I dont know if I should submit this,because the words you said above should be the last said,it is that sad.
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 26, 2006, at 5:55:35
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by summerflowers on January 26, 2006, at 2:37:38
summerflowers, and all of you here,
It does help to know I am not crazy, so your sharing here is helping me. I am grateful, especially since I can see you are sharing times that were incredibly difficult for you as well. For me, life will go on, as I know it must, but I am driven to try to do something to change our system that allows these sorts of things to happen to people. This is so wrong.
Posted by shasling on January 26, 2006, at 7:08:21
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 26, 2006, at 5:55:35
> summerflowers, and all of you here,
>
> It does help to know I am not crazy, so your sharing here is helping me. I am grateful, especially since I can see you are sharing times that were incredibly difficult for you as well. For me, life will go on, as I know it must, but I am driven to try to do something to change our system that allows these sorts of things to happen to people. This is so wrong.--Mom,
As someone who has never faced anything like this, I found that I had little to offer other than my deepest condolences and wishes for your healing. I wished I could do more to make it better. However, as a mom of a son the same age, who can't even process the the horror, I had to recognize that I very well might only make it worse by inadvertently dragging you back to a place you have already travelled through.
When I see this morning that you have received a measure of comfort and relief from talking with the others I am so grateful. It brought surprise tears to my eyes. I just want so badly for you to find some comfort, and was frustrated that it wasn't something I could do. Thanks to the others, and I am sorry for all of your experiences and losses.
With hope for your continued healing,
Suzie
>
>
Posted by Racer on January 26, 2006, at 13:24:45
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 26, 2006, at 5:55:35
> but I am driven to try to do something to change our system that allows these sorts of things to happen to people. This is so wrong.
>
>Believe me, I can relate to that sentiment.
If you really do want to do something to improve the system, I highly recommend that you report the doctor involved to your state's medical board. You can get all the forms online, and it's not that difficult to get through the whole process. The benefit of doing this is that it's free -- AND, if the doctor gets any sort of consequence at all, it's a whole lot easier if you choose to sue at a later date.
The medical boards are an often overlooked resource, and the more reports they get, the better the chance that things will change.
Another thing to do is to contact your local representatives -- although it shouldn't be, health care is a political issue. Especially mental health care.
Also, you can contact your local chapter of NAMI -- the National Alliance of the Mentally Ill. They have a lot of information about how to get through the maze of getting help in this sort of situation -- whether that help is getting the doctor involved investigated to make sure she did everything she was required to do, or getting you counseling, or adding you to a list of people the legislators should know about for the next time something about this comes up.
I realize that I'm suggesting that you DO things at a time in your life when I very much doubt you feel up to it, and I regret that. Maybe you'd find the process therapeutic, but regardless of that I very much hope that you have found grief counseling for yourself.
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 26, 2006, at 13:42:53
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » Devastated Mother, posted by Racer on January 26, 2006, at 13:24:45
Actually, it has been a little more than six months, and I am at a point where I do want to DO something. I will probably never need counseling in my life--I will probably never trust another shrink in my life. If I had been less trusting, this wouldn't have happened.
I will start the process of trying to contact the medical board. Thanks for the suggestion.
Posted by summerflowers on January 26, 2006, at 15:32:29
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 26, 2006, at 13:42:53
> Actually, it has been a little more than six months, and I am at a point where I do want to DO something. I will probably never need counseling in my life--I will probably never trust another shrink in my life. If I had been less trusting, this wouldn't have happened.
>
> I will start the process of trying to contact the medical board. Thanks for the suggestion.
> You have all of our deepest sympathy,and I really think people all over the world who have been through this should stand together,and let the truth be told,for those that we loved.
Posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 8:52:20
In reply to Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 21, 2006, at 2:23:04
I lost my 20 year old daughter in May 2004 under very similar circumstances. She had been prescribed effexor by a highly rated specialist in a Mental Health and Addiction Foundation for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and General Anxiety Disorder. I had no idea that the drug had risk. She had a long history of personality disorder "acting out" and some previous attempts with overdoses of tylenol, but never a "final act". Neither the specialist, nor a psychiatrist she was seeing, nor our family doctor who was prescribing the drug advised us of the risk. I had let the family doctor know that she was abusing her use of ritalin by stealing extra doses from me, but he was clueless about the real risks of ritalin addiction, and the potentially deadly combination of tranquilizers and ritalin and the effexor. My daughter killed herself in the subway the day after her dose of effexor was increased.
This whole ridiculous aspect of medical confidentiality is so stupid when facing an at risk young person whose judgement was completely questionable due to her illness. Doctors are supposed to provide information if there is a serious risk of safety. When we later saw her medical records and I understood the total picture which I did not when she was alive from emotional exhaustion (not uncommon with troubled kids) and because I could not have imagined the stupidity and lackadaisical attitude of doctors about prescribing mind influencing drugs.
The pain of losing a child is just beyond comprehension. I wish that my daughter's medical caregivers could experience my pain for one day -- they would never ever forget to look after their patients. My daughter was full of life in spite of her illness and had so much to look forward to. Now I live in an agony that she could never have imagined being inflicted on me. It is a wonder I have not actually killed myself.
Many parent survivors of loss of their children to suicide feel just like that.
Doctors simply do not want to be accountable for this unbelievable kind of disaster. They would rather rationalize that "depressed people kill themselves", instead of accepting their own failure to duly inform family members of risk of medications.
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 31, 2006, at 9:25:16
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » Devastated Mother, posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 8:52:20
I am incredibly sorry for your loss. It has indeed been a long uphill battle with my own feelings in the face of this loss. I am sure it is not over.
Did you report the doctor to anyone or take any other steps?
Posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 12:36:21
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 31, 2006, at 9:25:16
> I am incredibly sorry for your loss. It has indeed been a long uphill battle with my own feelings in the face of this loss. I am sure it is not over.
>
> Did you report the doctor to anyone or take any other steps?We lodged a complaint against my daughter's last psychiatrist as he had refused to see parents. He actually told my daughter (paraphrased) "I am not a child psychiatrist, so I only see adults, not parents of children"
Had he seen us, we could have given him so much more information. The sharing of medical records between doctors is terribly flawed. Our family doctor hardly sent very accurate medical history to other doctors and the doctors we saw were truly ignorant about how to involve parents in my daughter's care.
I have lived in the most terrible guilt because I believe that I failed my daughter... but I had not understood how my mistakes could contribute to such a terrible outcome. Personal flaws like being a book addict, and not very good at housekeeping, as well as just getting so frustated at her behaviour that I had become reactive to her as a mode of relationship rather than loving. This was part of her illness -- avoiding school, and she became addicted to prescription drugs. It is a long story. I wish I had researched her illness myself, but as she was seeing doctors, I thought that I didn't need to do this.. and I was seeing a psychiatrist for support as well as attending a parent support group, but now I realize that none of the doctors had a very good understanding of her illness other than this common characterization of "being difficult".. And I just did not get the information about risk that should have been there as a front line reality.
The doctors basically excuse themselves by saying " depressed people kill themselves" but the fact is that my daughter was anxious and unhappy but not necessarily depressed, and one of the risk factors for her illness is impulsivity, so the combination of the effect of the effexor with my daughter's use of prescription drugs took her to an impulsive act in the subway. A friend told me that he knew a man on Effexor who was in the subway and was actually thinking of jumping, but when the thought of getting a coke crossed his mind, he went to get the coke instead of killing himself.
I have since read so much about risks and realize that our doctors simply did not put two and two together in keeping us informed - and her last psychiatrist blocked our input and in doing so he lost valuable information that could have saved her life.
When I told one doctor about the risks of ritalin as kiddie cocaine, he told me that he had never heard of that.. Imagine, a doctor prescribing a drug to an adolescent/young adult without realizing a very serious risk.
I was a single parent. Neither my daughter's mother, nor I were perfect parents, but we loved her dearly and struggled to try to help her with her behaviour, but we failed because neither of us really understood what was wrong with her. No one really explained it in a way that could have helped us keep her safe. At end, the risk factors of her illness and our failure to understand cost her her life..
It should not have happened. It could have been prevented. The tragic stories are in the background for a lot of people -- sad news that does not touch too close to home, but when it happens to self -- and my daughter's room is now empty of her forever, and I long for the sound of her voice and her smile, and laughter, and miss her knowing I will miss her for as long as I live, then the anger inside for failure of medical caregivers with their vaunted egoes and so-called intelligence -- to help... I wish they could experience my agony for one day.
Posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 12:42:27
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 31, 2006, at 9:25:16
> I am incredibly sorry for your loss. It has indeed been a long uphill battle with my own feelings in the face of this loss. I am sure it is not over.
>
> Did you report the doctor to anyone or take any other steps?Dear DM...
here is a website for suicide survivors that you may find helps. Nothing helps much for long. It is a terrible agonizing process to somehow live through the unfathomable tragedy..
I found that this site has some very good thoughts and resources..
http://members.tripod.com/~LifeGard/index.htmlI do hope that this helps...
SL
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 31, 2006, at 13:07:00
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 12:42:27
Simon,
Your comments helped more than anything else could. Did you know of the notice on the insert (I don't know how long the note has been there, but from my perspective, it requires the doctor to at least ask the person if they can inform the patient's relatives, or friends, or someone with whom they have regular contact of the dangers of Effexor. My son had no real suicidal tendencies. He was just reasonably sad because of some difficulties he had had in months leading up to his death. I believe that, in addition to being given really dangerous medication, he was mis-diagnosed. But proving that .... yeah, well, I have so little respect left for doctors, especially hearing how they treated you and your daughter.
--DM
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 31, 2006, at 14:19:09
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 12:36:21
> > I am incredibly sorry for your loss. It has indeed been a long uphill battle with my own feelings in the face of this loss. I am sure it is not over.
> >
> > Did you report the doctor to anyone or take any other steps?
>
> We lodged a complaint against my daughter's last psychiatrist as he had refused to see parents. He actually told my daughter (paraphrased) "I am not a child psychiatrist, so I only see adults, not parents of children"
> Had he seen us, we could have given him so much more information. The sharing of medical records between doctors is terribly flawed. Our family doctor hardly sent very accurate medical history to other doctors and the doctors we saw were truly ignorant about how to involve parents in my daughter's care.
> I have lived in the most terrible guilt because I believe that I failed my daughter... but I had not understood how my mistakes could contribute to such a terrible outcome. Personal flaws like being a book addict, and not very good at housekeeping, as well as just getting so frustated at her behaviour that I had become reactive to her as a mode of relationship rather than loving. This was part of her illness -- avoiding school, and she became addicted to prescription drugs. It is a long story. I wish I had researched her illness myself, but as she was seeing doctors, I thought that I didn't need to do this.. and I was seeing a psychiatrist for support as well as attending a parent support group, but now I realize that none of the doctors had a very good understanding of her illness other than this common characterization of "being difficult".. And I just did not get the information about risk that should have been there as a front line reality.
> The doctors basically excuse themselves by saying " depressed people kill themselves" but the fact is that my daughter was anxious and unhappy but not necessarily depressed, and one of the risk factors for her illness is impulsivity, so the combination of the effect of the effexor with my daughter's use of prescription drugs took her to an impulsive act in the subway. A friend told me that he knew a man on Effexor who was in the subway and was actually thinking of jumping, but when the thought of getting a coke crossed his mind, he went to get the coke instead of killing himself.
> I have since read so much about risks and realize that our doctors simply did not put two and two together in keeping us informed - and her last psychiatrist blocked our input and in doing so he lost valuable information that could have saved her life.
> When I told one doctor about the risks of ritalin as kiddie cocaine, he told me that he had never heard of that.. Imagine, a doctor prescribing a drug to an adolescent/young adult without realizing a very serious risk.
> I was a single parent. Neither my daughter's mother, nor I were perfect parents, but we loved her dearly and struggled to try to help her with her behaviour, but we failed because neither of us really understood what was wrong with her. No one really explained it in a way that could have helped us keep her safe. At end, the risk factors of her illness and our failure to understand cost her her life..
> It should not have happened. It could have been prevented. The tragic stories are in the background for a lot of people -- sad news that does not touch too close to home, but when it happens to self -- and my daughter's room is now empty of her forever, and I long for the sound of her voice and her smile, and laughter, and miss her knowing I will miss her for as long as I live, then the anger inside for failure of medical caregivers with their vaunted egoes and so-called intelligence -- to help... I wish they could experience my agony for one day.
>Did you complain to the Medical Board?
I wish them much longer than one day of our agony.
I must believe, however, that one day, their behavior will come back to haunt them.
Since we lost our son, several people around us have experienced other equally tragic losses. My husband at this point says that tragedy is waiting to come into every life.
dm
Posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 15:41:27
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 31, 2006, at 13:07:00
> Simon,
>
> Your comments helped more than anything else could. Did you know of the notice on the insert (I don't know how long the note has been there, but from my perspective, it requires the doctor to at least ask the person if they can inform the patient's relatives, or friends, or someone with whom they have regular contact of the dangers of Effexor. My son had no real suicidal tendencies. He was just reasonably sad because of some difficulties he had had in months leading up to his death. I believe that, in addition to being given really dangerous medication, he was mis-diagnosed. But proving that .... yeah, well, I have so little respect left for doctors, especially hearing how they treated you and your daughter.
>
> --DMDear DM...
if I tell you the madness of it, you would hardly believe this is possible. When I took the prescription for Effexor to the pharmacist two days before my daughter's suicide, he asked me to delay till the next day so he could speak to the doctor about the high dosage. I went back the next day to get the drug not realizing it had ANY risk. The pharmacist told me that the doctor said it was OK.. so I left there feeling very very re-assured and glad that he had taken the trouble. I found out later that there was an existing caution for Effexor and that on that very day there had been an alert issued by Health Canada for the drug. When I asked my family doctor about this after my daughter's death, he simply told me that he did not read the monograph for every drug he prescribes. He was relying on the psychiatrist's recommendation as the validation, and the psychiatrist never told us anything EITHER!!!!
In all the years of my daugher's troubles, no one sat us down and gave us a clear understanding of the risks of her illness. I later learned that for comorbid factors such as drug abuse, the risk of suicide for patients like my daughter was 50%, and the risk for suicide without those factors was 10%..
I never knew that.. no one told me.. and I had this belief that she would never do such a thing. I still don't believe she intended this end, but that the drugs simply enabled her to act out her impulse not truly realizing it was a finality.
I still feel more guilty than anyone..SL
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 31, 2006, at 16:08:31
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 15:41:27
> > Simon,
> >
> > Your comments helped more than anything else could. Did you know of the notice on the insert (I don't know how long the note has been there, but from my perspective, it requires the doctor to at least ask the person if they can inform the patient's relatives, or friends, or someone with whom they have regular contact of the dangers of Effexor. My son had no real suicidal tendencies. He was just reasonably sad because of some difficulties he had had in months leading up to his death. I believe that, in addition to being given really dangerous medication, he was mis-diagnosed. But proving that .... yeah, well, I have so little respect left for doctors, especially hearing how they treated you and your daughter.
> >
> > --DM
>
> Dear DM...
> if I tell you the madness of it, you would hardly believe this is possible. When I took the prescription for Effexor to the pharmacist two days before my daughter's suicide, he asked me to delay till the next day so he could speak to the doctor about the high dosage. I went back the next day to get the drug not realizing it had ANY risk. The pharmacist told me that the doctor said it was OK.. so I left there feeling very very re-assured and glad that he had taken the trouble. I found out later that there was an existing caution for Effexor and that on that very day there had been an alert issued by Health Canada for the drug. When I asked my family doctor about this after my daughter's death, he simply told me that he did not read the monograph for every drug he prescribes. He was relying on the psychiatrist's recommendation as the validation, and the psychiatrist never told us anything EITHER!!!!
> In all the years of my daugher's troubles, no one sat us down and gave us a clear understanding of the risks of her illness. I later learned that for comorbid factors such as drug abuse, the risk of suicide for patients like my daughter was 50%, and the risk for suicide without those factors was 10%..
> I never knew that.. no one told me.. and I had this belief that she would never do such a thing. I still don't believe she intended this end, but that the drugs simply enabled her to act out her impulse not truly realizing it was a finality.
> I still feel more guilty than anyone..
>
> SL
>Medical Boards should be told when doctors do not live up to the "do no harm" that they are sworn to uphold. Talking to a doctor is impossible for a lay person, since doctors always think they know more than we do. Medical Boards are their peers, and should at least investigate this. Even at this point, I do not think it is too late to make that report. I urge you to do so. Doctors should have to be answerable to someone when they do something that takes a life.
--dm
Posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 16:43:07
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 31, 2006, at 16:08:31
> > > Simon,
> > >
> > > Your comments helped more than anything else could. Did you know of the notice on the insert (I don't know how long the note has been there, but from my perspective, it requires the doctor to at least ask the person if they can inform the patient's relatives, or friends, or someone with whom they have regular contact of the dangers of Effexor. My son had no real suicidal tendencies. He was just reasonably sad because of some difficulties he had had in months leading up to his death. I believe that, in addition to being given really dangerous medication, he was mis-diagnosed. But proving that .... yeah, well, I have so little respect left for doctors, especially hearing how they treated you and your daughter.
> > >
> > > --DM
> >
> > Dear DM...
> > if I tell you the madness of it, you would hardly believe this is possible. When I took the prescription for Effexor to the pharmacist two days before my daughter's suicide, he asked me to delay till the next day so he could speak to the doctor about the high dosage. I went back the next day to get the drug not realizing it had ANY risk. The pharmacist told me that the doctor said it was OK.. so I left there feeling very very re-assured and glad that he had taken the trouble. I found out later that there was an existing caution for Effexor and that on that very day there had been an alert issued by Health Canada for the drug. When I asked my family doctor about this after my daughter's death, he simply told me that he did not read the monograph for every drug he prescribes. He was relying on the psychiatrist's recommendation as the validation, and the psychiatrist never told us anything EITHER!!!!
> > In all the years of my daugher's troubles, no one sat us down and gave us a clear understanding of the risks of her illness. I later learned that for comorbid factors such as drug abuse, the risk of suicide for patients like my daughter was 50%, and the risk for suicide without those factors was 10%..
> > I never knew that.. no one told me.. and I had this belief that she would never do such a thing. I still don't believe she intended this end, but that the drugs simply enabled her to act out her impulse not truly realizing it was a finality.
> > I still feel more guilty than anyone..
> >
> > SL
> >
>
> Medical Boards should be told when doctors do not live up to the "do no harm" that they are sworn to uphold. Talking to a doctor is impossible for a lay person, since doctors always think they know more than we do. Medical Boards are their peers, and should at least investigate this. Even at this point, I do not think it is too late to make that report. I urge you to do so. Doctors should have to be answerable to someone when they do something that takes a life.
> --dmDear DM
the fact is that when there are a multiplicity of factors such as diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder, previous suicide attempts in history, known drug abuse, then the doctor is basically off the hook in a flash. The best we could do was have our complaint on his record. And in fairness, he was not the only doctor who failed, but his selfish attitude and his personal space of not wanting to deal with parents were not best for our daughter, but only suited his needs. I know from reading about best practices for patients with this disorder that working with parents is CRUCIAL to helping them. I was struggling with the manifestations of my daughter's illness frustrated that my bright and beautiful daughter could not somehow get her act together. I just did not see the depth of her pain because she was so "up" and could be demanding, and self-serving and somehow disregarded the feelings of others in how she acted to get what she wanted. What I didn't see was that she had actually become an addict. The behaviour was driven by her illness. It is not as if I was not seeing doctors for help, but the scale of her illness was not explained to me in a way that I really understood... and I am not uneducated, but this was so close to the skin and I was in the middle of it for many years. I needed help to help her.
If this last doctor or another doctor had just looked at the situation clinically, they should have been blowing whistles and alarms at the risk. Instead they either had limited information or were simply ignorant of the situation - in the way a doctor forgets about the patient when they put that file back on the shelf.. Out of sight, out of mind... but prescribing is a quick.. sure go ahead it's ok..
There have been cases of medical disasters causing the death of children -- two cases in Toronto about 15 or so years apart, and in both cases the lawyers for the institution and for the doctors or others who had clearly failed in their medical roles resisted admitting to this. One woman who lost her son because he was complaining of stomach aches and one of the residents was "sure" that it was psychosomatic because she couldn't diagnose what was wrong with him and even forced him to clean up his own vomit.. he died on the operating table when they finally realized he had a twisted bowel and had been telling the truth from day one. The mother fought for about 10 years till they finally admitted that the doctor was clearly at fault. She got an apology and her costs I believe as well as a settlement, but it was not the money... She fought for her son after his deat h so that this would not happen to other children. This happened in the most famous Children's Hospital in Canada, and the best hospital in spite of this.. Imagine.. ten years of fighting in the courts without the resources of a huge institution.
It is very difficult in cases of psychotrophic drugs to have a direct cause and effect. After all, "she was depressed, and depressed people kill themselves."..
There is a survivor advocacy group on Yahoo, (Canadian) that strives to educate both the public and professionals to help prevent suicides. OH, so tragically, suicide is the second cause of death of young people from 16 - 24, the first one being auto accidents.
I wish I had known so much when my daughter was alive, but the thought of her suicide was so horrific that I could not bear to think it was possible. If only I had dared to face this as a reality. I think for many parents taking that leap to facing the real possibility of it happening must be excruciatingly difficult. I could not face it when my daughter was alive. Now I face it every day, and I know from talking to other parents, that they could not imagine it happening. Not my child. How could they do this to us (as we are still alive and they are gone). When we ask "how could they do it to themselves?" the answer is that we should have been able to protect them.. but we failed.
that is how I feel.
SL
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 31, 2006, at 16:56:13
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 16:43:07
> > > > Simon,
> > > >
> > > > Your comments helped more than anything else could. Did you know of the notice on the insert (I don't know how long the note has been there, but from my perspective, it requires the doctor to at least ask the person if they can inform the patient's relatives, or friends, or someone with whom they have regular contact of the dangers of Effexor. My son had no real suicidal tendencies. He was just reasonably sad because of some difficulties he had had in months leading up to his death. I believe that, in addition to being given really dangerous medication, he was mis-diagnosed. But proving that .... yeah, well, I have so little respect left for doctors, especially hearing how they treated you and your daughter.
> > > >
> > > > --DM
> > >
> > > Dear DM...
> > > if I tell you the madness of it, you would hardly believe this is possible. When I took the prescription for Effexor to the pharmacist two days before my daughter's suicide, he asked me to delay till the next day so he could speak to the doctor about the high dosage. I went back the next day to get the drug not realizing it had ANY risk. The pharmacist told me that the doctor said it was OK.. so I left there feeling very very re-assured and glad that he had taken the trouble. I found out later that there was an existing caution for Effexor and that on that very day there had been an alert issued by Health Canada for the drug. When I asked my family doctor about this after my daughter's death, he simply told me that he did not read the monograph for every drug he prescribes. He was relying on the psychiatrist's recommendation as the validation, and the psychiatrist never told us anything EITHER!!!!
> > > In all the years of my daugher's troubles, no one sat us down and gave us a clear understanding of the risks of her illness. I later learned that for comorbid factors such as drug abuse, the risk of suicide for patients like my daughter was 50%, and the risk for suicide without those factors was 10%..
> > > I never knew that.. no one told me.. and I had this belief that she would never do such a thing. I still don't believe she intended this end, but that the drugs simply enabled her to act out her impulse not truly realizing it was a finality.
> > > I still feel more guilty than anyone..
> > >
> > > SL
> > >
> >
> > Medical Boards should be told when doctors do not live up to the "do no harm" that they are sworn to uphold. Talking to a doctor is impossible for a lay person, since doctors always think they know more than we do. Medical Boards are their peers, and should at least investigate this. Even at this point, I do not think it is too late to make that report. I urge you to do so. Doctors should have to be answerable to someone when they do something that takes a life.
> > --dm
>
> Dear DM
> the fact is that when there are a multiplicity of factors such as diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder, previous suicide attempts in history, known drug abuse, then the doctor is basically off the hook in a flash. The best we could do was have our complaint on his record. And in fairness, he was not the only doctor who failed, but his selfish attitude and his personal space of not wanting to deal with parents were not best for our daughter, but only suited his needs. I know from reading about best practices for patients with this disorder that working with parents is CRUCIAL to helping them. I was struggling with the manifestations of my daughter's illness frustrated that my bright and beautiful daughter could not somehow get her act together. I just did not see the depth of her pain because she was so "up" and could be demanding, and self-serving and somehow disregarded the feelings of others in how she acted to get what she wanted. What I didn't see was that she had actually become an addict. The behaviour was driven by her illness. It is not as if I was not seeing doctors for help, but the scale of her illness was not explained to me in a way that I really understood... and I am not uneducated, but this was so close to the skin and I was in the middle of it for many years. I needed help to help her.
> If this last doctor or another doctor had just looked at the situation clinically, they should have been blowing whistles and alarms at the risk. Instead they either had limited information or were simply ignorant of the situation - in the way a doctor forgets about the patient when they put that file back on the shelf.. Out of sight, out of mind... but prescribing is a quick.. sure go ahead it's ok..
> There have been cases of medical disasters causing the death of children -- two cases in Toronto about 15 or so years apart, and in both cases the lawyers for the institution and for the doctors or others who had clearly failed in their medical roles resisted admitting to this. One woman who lost her son because he was complaining of stomach aches and one of the residents was "sure" that it was psychosomatic because she couldn't diagnose what was wrong with him and even forced him to clean up his own vomit.. he died on the operating table when they finally realized he had a twisted bowel and had been telling the truth from day one. The mother fought for about 10 years till they finally admitted that the doctor was clearly at fault. She got an apology and her costs I believe as well as a settlement, but it was not the money... She fought for her son after his deat h so that this would not happen to other children. This happened in the most famous Children's Hospital in Canada, and the best hospital in spite of this.. Imagine.. ten years of fighting in the courts without the resources of a huge institution.
> It is very difficult in cases of psychotrophic drugs to have a direct cause and effect. After all, "she was depressed, and depressed people kill themselves."..
> There is a survivor advocacy group on Yahoo, (Canadian) that strives to educate both the public and professionals to help prevent suicides. OH, so tragically, suicide is the second cause of death of young people from 16 - 24, the first one being auto accidents.
> I wish I had known so much when my daughter was alive, but the thought of her suicide was so horrific that I could not bear to think it was possible. If only I had dared to face this as a reality. I think for many parents taking that leap to facing the real possibility of it happening must be excruciatingly difficult. I could not face it when my daughter was alive. Now I face it every day, and I know from talking to other parents, that they could not imagine it happening. Not my child. How could they do this to us (as we are still alive and they are gone). When we ask "how could they do it to themselves?" the answer is that we should have been able to protect them.. but we failed.
> that is how I feel.
> SLAnd I, dear friend in pain. My son had had no prior attempts, and had no real reason in his life for this. He had no underlying anything that would have led us to expect this. I suppose no one ever does. It is indeed very hard to know that we were not able to protect them, especially from these ignorant physicians who took them from us.
Posted by fenix on February 2, 2006, at 7:09:22
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » Devastated Mother, posted by simon levane on January 31, 2006, at 8:52:20
Dear god, I am so sorry for what has happened to you. I have read so many stories of these things happening and that is why I dislike those drugs so much.
It has been shown numerous times in studies that these drugs can cause akathisia, which can drive someone to do very horrible things, like suicide. Many drug companies purposely kept secret these findings of akathisia for a very long time.
There is something you can do, you can fight back at those *ssholes and sue them for wrongful death because akathisia was probably the reason of the suicide.
Again, I am so sorry of that tradegy, I am actually suffering from a form of akathisia known as Tardive Akathisia, it lasts for a very very very long time, and the pain is so agonizing.
Damnit, another life destroyed by these medicines.
These drugs sometimes save people, but at what cost? Something is very wrong here with this world.
Posted by simon levane on February 2, 2006, at 13:21:30
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by fenix on February 2, 2006, at 7:09:22
The bigger problem, I think, is how poorly doctors inform family members.
It seems so easy to prescribe with ignorance of risk, or to minimize risk - as if the parents of a child with a peanut butter allergy or who had severe asthma were not informed of the risk.
This would be malpractice. But in the case of mental illness it is so much easier to blame the patient.. after all, they were depressed, and depressed people kill themselves.
after all, they were sick and sick people die...
doctors not being smarter about a very difficult illness...
at end, parents and family members are punished for not understanding illness, or being helpless to help their loved ones.
DM's son was a bright star with so many accomplishments, and yet he was lost because somehow the help he needed was not adequate in spite of his loving family, and in my case, a troubled child, but doctors not smart enough to enable us to help her better.
at end, the loss is on the heads of parents and family members. it is unimaginably painful..
S.L.
> Dear god, I am so sorry for what has happened to you. I have read so many stories of these things happening and that is why I dislike those drugs so much.
>
> It has been shown numerous times in studies that these drugs can cause akathisia, which can drive someone to do very horrible things, like suicide. Many drug companies purposely kept secret these findings of akathisia for a very long time.
>
> There is something you can do, you can fight back at those *ssholes and sue them for wrongful death because akathisia was probably the reason of the suicide.
>
> Again, I am so sorry of that tradegy, I am actually suffering from a form of akathisia known as Tardive Akathisia, it lasts for a very very very long time, and the pain is so agonizing.
>
> Damnit, another life destroyed by these medicines.
> These drugs sometimes save people, but at what cost? Something is very wrong here with this world.
>
>
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 2, 2006, at 14:00:14
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 2, 2006, at 13:21:30
Retrospect is so frustrating. If I could turn back time...I would change this by demanding of the doctor that she tell me what the potential side effects were...oh, no, because I couldn't because of that stupid HIBA law. (not sure how to spell it) they always quote, that prevents sharing with family--who then is to blame, if the drug company says people should be informed and the doctor doesn't bother, and uses this HBIA privacy law to excuse it?
Legitimate and miserable depression ensues...
Posted by simon levane on February 2, 2006, at 16:05:16
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 2, 2006, at 14:00:14
Dear D.M.
I know where you are at.. I really do.
I feel empty and lost without my daughter - troubled as she was, she was a joy but not believing this could happen, I felt that I could be upset at her, not understanding the true scale of her illness, I reacted. Friends have told me that she and I would have come through the troubles because I loved her and she loved me, but I could not have imagined this terrible outcome. I know your son loved being in your family and from what you have written, my goodness, he sounded like such an accomplished young man with so much potential. I also know he would not want you to suffer, and he would not want you to be in any pain. I know that is also true of my daughter, though I know how hard it is to find that truth of our children's care for us against the reality of their deaths.
I sometimes write this, though it is hard to really experience it beyond the pain, but our children just would not want us to suffer. I do feel angry at the truly incompetent medical care and I do understand how you feel about those forms. My daughter would have been happy to have us see her doctor, but the fool just did not like dealing with parents. What a jerk!!
All we can do now is try to get across the importance of sharing information with family members. There are exceptions to confidentiality and one of them is risk. Risk to patient and risk to others. And what could be more horrible than the pain we now suffer?
Take care,
SL
> Retrospect is so frustrating. If I could turn back time...I would change this by demanding of the doctor that she tell me what the potential side effects were...oh, no, because I couldn't because of that stupid HIBA law. (not sure how to spell it) they always quote, that prevents sharing with family--who then is to blame, if the drug company says people should be informed and the doctor doesn't bother, and uses this HBIA privacy law to excuse it?
>
> Legitimate and miserable depression ensues...
Posted by Racer on February 2, 2006, at 20:14:23
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 2, 2006, at 16:05:16
I am so sorry about your daughter. Reading this thread was heartwrenching, and you both have my deepest sympathy.
In the course of your searching for support, have either of you found any organizations that try to tell parents and other loved ones about this sort of thing BEFORE it happens? Or that try to find ways of reaching out to parents as soon as they start getting help for a child? I know that there are organizations that exist if someone looks for them, but I'm not aware of any that try to encourage parents to seek that information?
Again, I'm sorry -- and I'm also sorry to break in asking for information. Thank you.
Posted by simon levane on February 3, 2006, at 8:45:57
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » simon levane, posted by Racer on February 2, 2006, at 20:14:23
Racer..
Both DM and myself did try to get help for our children. DM's postings tell how hard they tried to get help for their son. I also tried, this was extensive.. psychiatric ward of major children's hospital, centre for troubled youth with family counselling, parent support groups, consulting psychiatrists. My ex-wife and I had our daughter in a secure youth facility for two weeks when she was totally out of control. There were periods when she was going to school regularly, but the trouble is that neither her mother nor I really understood her illness and it was not very well explained to us. We also had contradictory diagnoses by different doctors and not very good advise on how to help her. She lived with me, so I was at the very "front lines" of coping with her behaviour and after so many years, I had fallen into a state of frustration and upset. I have read of other parents coming to this kind of situation.
Her care in terms of a concerted committed effort by professionals to help and to intervene was not very good. Her family doctor who should have been monitoring her overall health situation, was simply IGNORANT of the drugs he was prescribing her and did not recognize the warning signs that I was telling him about, and I was looking to him to advise and guide, but he simply was ignorant of her condition. The psychiatrists she saw were uniformly useless.
I now live in the anguish of regret that I did not research her illness as I should have done, but seeing these professionals in high places, I just took their advice and their lack of concern of risk as being reality. The actual reality is that she was at a very very high risk, and the drug she was on had a risk factor, but no one told us.
It really comes down to education and to some reasonable standards of medical practice.
My view of the psychiatric profession as I now see it is very low. There are smart doctors out there who understand the urgency of care for troubled youth and understand specific risks and how to keep kids safe, but unfortunately there are so many professionals out there who are really ignorant and who take prescribing drugs - psychiatric drugs, very very lightly..
It is a well known fact that Ritalin is over-prescribed, and in the tragic case of my daughter, I actually refused to let her have this drug at first, but felt over-ridden by all these qualified doctors. In hindsight, I was right to have expressed concern and she should never have been allowed to have that drug. It was a major contributor to destroying her.
The bottom line is that more education is needed for professionals and for parents in awareness of suicide risk and of better patient care. My daughter would be alive now if her doctors had not be so lackadaisical in her care.> I am so sorry about your daughter. Reading this thread was heartwrenching, and you both have my deepest sympathy.
>
> In the course of your searching for support, have either of you found any organizations that try to tell parents and other loved ones about this sort of thing BEFORE it happens? Or that try to find ways of reaching out to parents as soon as they start getting help for a child? I know that there are organizations that exist if someone looks for them, but I'm not aware of any that try to encourage parents to seek that information?
>
> Again, I'm sorry -- and I'm also sorry to break in asking for information. Thank you.
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 3, 2006, at 14:35:08
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 3, 2006, at 8:45:57
Racer,
I must agree with Simon. While we did not have the extensive issues with our son he did with his daughter, we both experienced absolutely incompetent psychiatric care for our children. The helpless feeling of knowing that you did not do all that could have been done (regardless of the fact that you did not know what to do at the time) is an unbearable burden. A parent's job is to protect his/her child. To have a child who should have lived die due to reckless endangerment of medical ineptitude is so painful, I assure you, you have absolutely no idea. And to think of some group helping at this point...education needs to happen first in Medical School, and it obviously is not.
Still Devastated Mother
Racer..
> Both DM and myself did try to get help for our children. DM's postings tell how hard they tried to get help for their son. I also tried, this was extensive.. psychiatric ward of major children's hospital, centre for troubled youth with family counselling, parent support groups, consulting psychiatrists. My ex-wife and I had our daughter in a secure youth facility for two weeks when she was totally out of control. There were periods when she was going to school regularly, but the trouble is that neither her mother nor I really understood her illness and it was not very well explained to us. We also had contradictory diagnoses by different doctors and not very good advise on how to help her. She lived with me, so I was at the very "front lines" of coping with her behaviour and after so many years, I had fallen into a state of frustration and upset. I have read of other parents coming to this kind of situation.
> Her care in terms of a concerted committed effort by professionals to help and to intervene was not very good. Her family doctor who should have been monitoring her overall health situation, was simply IGNORANT of the drugs he was prescribing her and did not recognize the warning signs that I was telling him about, and I was looking to him to advise and guide, but he simply was ignorant of her condition. The psychiatrists she saw were uniformly useless.
> I now live in the anguish of regret that I did not research her illness as I should have done, but seeing these professionals in high places, I just took their advice and their lack of concern of risk as being reality. The actual reality is that she was at a very very high risk, and the drug she was on had a risk factor, but no one told us.
> It really comes down to education and to some reasonable standards of medical practice.
> My view of the psychiatric profession as I now see it is very low. There are smart doctors out there who understand the urgency of care for troubled youth and understand specific risks and how to keep kids safe, but unfortunately there are so many professionals out there who are really ignorant and who take prescribing drugs - psychiatric drugs, very very lightly..
> It is a well known fact that Ritalin is over-prescribed, and in the tragic case of my daughter, I actually refused to let her have this drug at first, but felt over-ridden by all these qualified doctors. In hindsight, I was right to have expressed concern and she should never have been allowed to have that drug. It was a major contributor to destroying her.
> The bottom line is that more education is needed for professionals and for parents in awareness of suicide risk and of better patient care. My daughter would be alive now if her doctors had not be so lackadaisical in her care.
>
> > I am so sorry about your daughter. Reading this thread was heartwrenching, and you both have my deepest sympathy.
> >
> > In the course of your searching for support, have either of you found any organizations that try to tell parents and other loved ones about this sort of thing BEFORE it happens? Or that try to find ways of reaching out to parents as soon as they start getting help for a child? I know that there are organizations that exist if someone looks for them, but I'm not aware of any that try to encourage parents to seek that information?
> >
> > Again, I'm sorry -- and I'm also sorry to break in asking for information. Thank you.
>
>
Posted by simon levane on February 3, 2006, at 16:14:39
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » simon levane, posted by Racer on February 2, 2006, at 20:14:23
Dear Racer...
I really didn't answer your question better.
I did find a very good guide that I wish I had had long ago...
it is an excellent guide for parents with a child who may be suicidal.. or anyone for that matter..
http://www.bcmentalhealthworks.ca/files/living_suicidal.html
When I read this, I so wished that someone had given this to me before.. as it has so much excellent information. Hope it helps someone if you pass this on.
SL> I am so sorry about your daughter. Reading this thread was heartwrenching, and you both have my deepest sympathy.
>
> In the course of your searching for support, have either of you found any organizations that try to tell parents and other loved ones about this sort of thing BEFORE it happens? Or that try to find ways of reaching out to parents as soon as they start getting help for a child? I know that there are organizations that exist if someone looks for them, but I'm not aware of any that try to encourage parents to seek that information?
>
> Again, I'm sorry -- and I'm also sorry to break in asking for information. Thank you.
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