Posted by Racer on January 31, 2004, at 13:13:28
In reply to What 8 meant, posted by 8 Miles on January 31, 2004, at 10:07:16
First, though, a digression. I'm middle aged. I like the music of my youth. Eight Miles High is a song with a lot of resonance for me, so I've always associated that with you, and therefore to like you. If this sounds otherwise, that is only because of the limits imposed by text without body language.
Now, back to the subject at hand.
I get rambling, too, and probably didn't make myself clear. What I saw in your original post, and still see, is what looks like a logical fallacy. Here's what you wrote:
"In that, I restate that if depression is just a behavioral phenonmenon (w/o bio-physiologic causality) because it cannot be classified as a disease using pathological guidelines, then personality, beliefs and values must not exist because they can not be found as a presence in brain tissue."
Here's what I read, and excuse the length:
If pathological guidelines define disease, then depression is not a disease.
If depression is not a disease, then it is 'merely' behavioral.
Since depression has been found not to be a disease, personality -- which is also behavioral -- must not exist.
(Lemme give you a little background: the current political debate -- especially The Shrub's State of Dis Union address -- sent me back to my college Critical Thinking text. I've been putting the campaign statements into standard form for two weeks now. You just got stuck between me and my pathology, and I'm sorry about that. I promise, scout's honor, that this interaction is only based on my own issues and that I like you. I really, really like you. I'm hoping at the end of this, we'll end up both knowing we're on the same side. I already know you're right: the no guys are cranks.)
Anyway, the problem there is that at no time did anyone in the debate say that behavior did not exist. In fact, their basic argument is that depression *is* personality, as (allegedly) proven by the (alleged) fact that it could not be seen in physical pathology.
Another argument that can -- and was -- used to refute that position is easier and I think more elegant:
If disease can only be defined through post mortem pathology, no disease can be diagnosed in a living person.
Doctors do diagnose disease in living people.
Therefore, disease is not defined soley by through post mortem findings.
There's the entire NO argument torn to threads right there, just by disproving their first premise.
By the way, the abridged versions of the so called debate on the Szasz team's sites did not include the exchanges on the above argument. The Szasz crew also refused to discuss whether their argument about depression would be considered valid when applied to other diseases like arthritis or diabetes.
And I'm just really frustrated these days by the political situation out there. Like I said, I've been using my college text and putting arguments into standard form, and getting frustrated. I've also been spending far too much time at political sites. What I'm seeing at all of them, is a reaction to the other side's arguments that assumes those arguments are correct. I'm also seeing that a lot of the people who post on forums like MoveOn.org are very bright, very articulate, and just refuse to see the bigger picture. They react to the little things, and then they can't fight back when the big one hits. I know, I'm not communicating anything helpful here, but it all comes back to the newest addition to my soon to be classic: Racer's Rants To Save The Universe.
New Rant:
If The People don't learn Critical Reasoning skills, GWB will be reelected, and that will be A Very Bad Thing.
Can you see how that addition to my world view would make me jump in after your post, even though I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion? I hope so. I'm really and truly cross my heart and hope to die not trying to start anything with anyone, just to try to explain my point of view. Even if you totally disagree with everything I've said, I hope that you understand that one point.
poster:Racer
thread:306610
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040131/msgs/307735.html