Posted by WorryGirl on May 15, 2003, at 11:16:10
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » WorryGirl, posted by leeran on May 14, 2003, at 21:31:30
> WorryGirl –
>
> I was thinking about your post while I had lunch. I work at home, so it's usually myself, the dog and MSNBC or Fox News (and whatever is currently on my mind).
>Lee, thanks for your lo-o-ong response. It is most appreciated and I was up late last night when I read it and was too tired to respond. BTW I love to knit to the MSNBC and stuff like that. It's the only way I keep up with world issues. I don't have the concentration to just sit there and watch them, but if I'm doing something else it works.
> I mentally revisited the neighborhoods where I've lived over the years (as an adult) and realized I've never formed any close neighborhood relationships. Maybe because of my mother's warnings about not getting too close to neighbors (because if there's a falling out you still have to live nearby). Her “what if” attitude has trickled down the genetic gutter pipe in more ways than one.
>
I have heard that warning before, but then would read in Good Housekeeping or some magazine like that about these neighbors who have been best friends for 20 years or whatever, and they have something so special, and their life is so happy and fulfilled, yadayadayada.
Realistically, I do think it's probably not good to get too close as your mother wisely mentioned. Because if you do have a falling out, then everyone else gets to hear about it and take sides (ugh!). My mom is good friends with her next door neighbor, though, and it works nicely. They are good friends, but not super close. A lot of it depends on the luck of the draw. I think I read in one of your posts that there is at least one soul mate for everyone. It's funny, because my husband and I are close, but not exactly in a soul mate way (not because of the male issue, either). Sometimes he just doesn't "get" me where a soul mate would. But I cherish him and am so grateful for the respect and love I have received from him.> Actually, she can’t take the blame for this. The likelier contributing factors are (a) I’m very shy in person (b) I usually feel like a social misfit in most situations (c) the neighborhoods where I've lived haven't been all that neighborly (or at least not with me - LOL!).
>
These people don't know what they're missing. But it sounds like you are OK with this; if not, neighbors continuously change, and maybe you or me could end up with a neighbor we connect with one of these days.> This is a tough situation. It sounds like this woman may be employing some rather Machiavellian tactics and in those circumstances, the players are often backed into a 'd**ned if you do - d**ned if you don't' corner."
>
I never would have pegged her as Machiavellian, because she is usually so-o-o nice, but after looking the word up in the dictionary, I realized that she is a bit cunning, if it is working something to her advantage. I don't want to play this game; hopefully she will realize this and either leave me alone or be nicer.> When I read this line:
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> "She makes comments that undermine me whenever we're around other people"
>I also realized after I typed that, that she has also undermined me when it is just her talking to me, too. I probably felt it more intensely when around the others, because I didn't want them picking up on her negative vibes towards me.
> I was reminded of my first husband who became adept at maneuver, knowing full well that I would never cause a scene in front of other people. And although he could be a stinker, he was anything but Machiavellian. His actions were probably based on his own self-esteem issues. Despite the fact that he was (and still is) very handsome (and never failed to remind me of that fact), he struggled in other areas.
Oh, to be married to one of those physically godlike men! I know there are some super nice hunks out there, but I've heard stories about how difficult some can be to live with. I guess the same is true for some stunning women.
> Regardless of his looks, he never came off as very warm and people usually picked up on that vacancy in his personality soon after meeting him. If this is the case with your neighbor, it may be common knowledge around the 'hood. And understanding someone’s “motive” makes it easier for me to tolerate their behavior (note: if she wasn’t a neighbor and you didn’t have to encounter her from time to time I would drop her like a hot skillet – but considering real estate is involved, a more amicable solution seems ).
>I think that she, like me, is just starting to get to know people in this neighborhood, and was sort of a recluse after having a child for a while. She had a network of friends not from the neighborhood and decided to get closer to the people in this neighborhood. Everyone seems to like her so far. What they really think about her I don't know and am not going to ask. I don't feel comfortable talking about other people/friends when they're not around.
> I'm getting the impression that you're the newer/newest neighbor? With any luck, people are more aware of her methods than you might realize. They may be a bit afraid of her because they've been subject to this treatment as well. Other neighbors may eventually disclose this voluntarily (once they realize it won't get back to her), but you’ll definitely have to tread carefully as the new "gal on the block" until someone else mentions it first. Even then, I would just take it as positive confirmation (i.e. with no more than an “oh, really?” response) and try not to comment on anything directly regarding her. After all, you never know how news travels through the neighborhood grapevine (my trust issues are hanging out all over this post!).
>
I'm fairly new, but so is she. She got on the homeowner's board and has gotten to know almost everyone. I have no interest in the board (it would, in fact, be a nightmare for me). That's my own fault, I know.
After your advice and the others' advice on this board I honestly feel much better about the situation and I thank you all so much for your words - they really help :)> I do believe that most people are pretty observant and, moreover, good at heart, so once the other neighbors have gotten to know the real you (versus whoever she might have unfairly portrayed you as) you might find a warming trend coming in your direction!
>I hope so, too.
> There's a girl in my son's class who is very "popular." There are countless stories in circulation (even among other parents) of the incredible control she exerts over her peer group. Why are so many kids willing to offer up this kind of loyalty to one individual? The only reasonable explanation I've come up with is fear. Fear of alienation? Retaliation? It must be all of the above and then some. Whatever it is, she's managed to orchestrate the social demise of many a young girl over the four years since we've lived here.
>
How do those powerfully popular kids do it? Do their parents give them the incredible self esteem, or the ability to intimidate? Or is it something they were born with and has nothing to do with how they were raised or their parents' personality?> People like this both fascinate and repulse me, regardless of age (as long as they’re within observation distance – not interaction distance!). I had an out-of-state manager who was involved in the end of my seventeen-year career with the same organization. Involved, yet seemingly innocent, all the while turning people against one another behind the scenes. My business partner and I ended up quitting because staying would have been just as difficult. It was a lose-lose situation and every bit as wrenching as either one of my divorces. We later found out that many of the ill feelings that existed between departments were perpetuated by this one fellow who was so adept at playing one side against the other. You've got to hand it to people like this. It can't be easy staying on top of all the alliances and machinations necessary to keep everyone pitted against one another (without sullying your own name in the process).
>I'm fascinated and repulsed, too. I'm the type who would enjoy reading books on the subject just to get more insight, but it wouldn't change who I was in the slightest. Somehow I feel that the more I understand why certain people act the way they do, it makes me feel less badly, when their bad behavior is aimed at me.
> These are tough situations and I feel for you WorryGirl. Life is dicey enough without having to deal with chessboard neighborhood maneuvers! You sound very genuine and open. These qualities, that come so natural for you, can be threatening to people who thrive on dissension. An internet friend of mine always used to show up on the message board we both frequented whenever heated discussions took place. At least she was honest when she described herself as a "controversy junkie."
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> As you mentioned, this neighbor may be jealous of the difference in your financial situation. Variances in financial prosperity can eat away at some people. In situations like this I always try to hold my cards close. The less she knows about your personal dossier, the less she can twist things (either in her own mind or to other people).
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I think there is some truth to this. We have been doing renovating, while they struggle. It's hard to hide the stuff we've been working on when she comes over and there it is. I wonder if she isn't a bit resentful and thinks she would have done things differently. Her taste is superb, and maybe she gets satisfaction out of thinking, "If I had the money my place would look so much better". Our place is customized for us, not our neighbors. I would love for their financial situation to improve, and I know it will. They just need to be patient - they are both very intelligent people who will go far. They are also several years younger, and as my husband said, when he was their age, he was struggling, too. Sorry to ramble!> I had a former friend whose modus operandi was badgering “friends” for personal information - i.e. household income, marital discord, etc. I eventually stopped taking her calls after one particular lunch (I may have posted about this before) when she successfully pried the news of my ex-husband's infidelity out of me. When she laughed in my face after this painful admission I just checked her off my list. This was before “toxic” was a catch-phrase, but when I read your post title I immediately thought of her.
>What an insensitive (toxic) person! You must have appeared as if you had it all to her and she couldn't wait for you to be knocked off your pedestal. You were smart to check her off your list.
> Luckily, she wasn't a neighbor and I only saw her one other time (while she was driving slowly past our new house on a dead-end street about thirty miles from where she lived). She pulled in the driveway and admitted she wanted to see what our house looked like. I’m ashamed to say that I actually orchestrated the situation by inviting her husband, who was our insurance man, over (professionally) to upgrade our policies after we moved. I knew her well enough to know that she would hound her husband for a complete description of our house. Very petty of me. It was a great coincidence, being outside when she drove by. And although there was a small measure of momentary satisfaction, I ended up being more disgusted by my own need to twist the knife of revenge. By that time my marriage had become a monument to materialism and my unhappiness with myself was something I pushed away with new cars, jewelry, vacations, etc.
>Don't feel badly for your monument to materialism at the time. We all find ways to feel fulfilled, but when we are there, and the fulfmillment is real, I'm sure there will be no mistaking it for anything else.
I have to comment - how strange that she drove 30 miles out of her way to see your house. People sure do some irrational things, don't they? The only time I would have driven 30 miles out of the way is when I was much younger, if I had a huge crush on someone and was too shy to approach them. If they had caught me I would be mortified.
I almost wonder if this woman had a crush on your husband? And that made you intriguing to her, because you had been married to this man. I'll admit when I had a crush on a boy in high school, I was always a bit intrigued by his girlfriend, if he had one, figuring out her appeals.
> Sorry to divert in so many ways in this post – but I guess that brings up a good point. Sometimes, people who look the happiest and appear to have the most, are really the unhappiest of all. Anyone who did a “drive by” of my house/life back then would have been greatly deceived by the false front I managed to carefully construct over the years.
>You're absolutely right. You can't judge a book by it's cover, or even the first few pages for that matter.
> <<Sigh>>
>
> WorryGirl, I'm hoping this neighbor of yours is more like my ex-husband and not like the freshman girl who reigns over her nail-biting masses (in other words, a stinker versus a tyrant). I think people will tolerate an Eddie Haskell type, but they fear Little Chucky. THE GOOD THING IS, I THINK THE CHUCKYS ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN! I've not met many in my lifetime. My former boss and this teenage girl are the only two that even come to mind! Even this rather toxic "friend" of mine was rather harmless simply because she was so obvious (her own husband was constantly apologizing for her rude behavior).
>I hope she's not a Chucky, too. I'm going to think positively and say probably not.
> Hang in there, WorryGirl. It's hard to imagine that there aren't other neighbors that this woman has alienated - i.e. people with whom you may end up having more in common. As I get older I find myself in agreement with the cynic, Diogenes, who said “it is better to have one friend of great value than many friends who are good for nothing.”
>I agree and I have that one friend even if she's miles away. I hope I haven't sounded ungrateful, but it sure would be nice to have a closer close friend one of these days.
> Lee
>
>Thanks again!
poster:WorryGirl
thread:226073
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030506/msgs/226835.html