Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2005, at 12:41:22
In reply to Re: HELP! Enteric endocrine problems from psych m, posted by Krumcake on May 18, 2005, at 1:11:43
> Thanks so much for all the info.
You're welcome.
> I think that I am just getting so frustrated with our docs, that everything is overwhelming me and the prospect of trying to put together a hemp shake on our own seemed daunting. Since you went through the ingredients (which I did also, but somehow it wasn't registering...duh:), I see now that it won't be so hard to put that product together.
I could sense your frustration. I hope you don't mind that I "took you by the hand". Actually, after seeing how easy it is to obtain some of those powders, I'm going to get some to add to my "nutrient smoothies". Why not?
> I went to the Natural Market today for a 20% off sale (woo-hoo) and filled up with Probiotics, a greens-n-protein shake mix and some flax oil... We're going to make due with those until the shipment from Living Harvest comes in. I'm also giving him Super Milk Thistle, and vit c and B-6 to help the amino acids absorb.
You're using a multi, plus those extras, I hope? Supplementing with single nutrients can cause problems. B6 is great, but it adds nutrient stress on the other B-vitamins, that work with it. If you don't supply those others, too, you can induce functional deficiencies. That's why B's are sold as B-complex.
> We were at the Psychiatrist yesterday, filling him in on all this and he offered this helpful suggestion: "well, here's an idea - let's try upping the Seroquel" - - whatever. Ah, sorry buddy, we're thinking of dropping the Seroquel not upping it! That was just a med that he was put on while going through detox in January....trying to get off the vicodin he's been on all year...while the docs tried (-i guess?) to peice this thing together!!!!! You know, on second thought, I think we should up the Seroquel because by the time this thing is all over - I'M gonna need it to keep me from going postal on these doctors.
It's most difficult now because he is unstable. How can you figure out what will work, when you have a moving target?
> (me...doing some deep breathing...)That's GOOD. :-)
> He's had biopsies, all normal. Here's what I'm thinking...if you have a moment(or ten)please tell me if any of this makes sense.
>
> 1. He's been a MAJOR Ant-Acid user for upwards of 12 years now. The man always had heart burn. Well, after (recently) doing the vinegar test, and the heart burn promply STOPPED - we started wondering if maybe he's got under production rather than over.The symptoms of under-production of acid and over-production are identical, yet standard "treatment" is to assume overproduction.
Heartburn can be caused by improper timing of the release of stomach acid. Rather than being released immediately on being presented with food, the acid release is delayed, and it ends up not being mixed with the food. It lays on top, creating a local region of very high acidity, while the bulk of the food itself is not properly acidified. The high-acid layer of food is decomposed, releasing gases which encourage belching. Acid vapour and digestive liquids rise into the throat, and you get heartburn. The same vapours also contribute to asthma.
Some of the food gets overdigested, while most is completely underdigested.
I used to have bottles of Maalox everywhere. In my car. In my knapsack. In my wife's purse. At work. All over the house. I took omeprazole (Prilosec or Losec, in different countries).
I used to have GERD anyway. I took part in the clinical study for Nexium. I knew that I was in the treatment arm, because I knew if I took a drug or placebo. There was no friggin doubt. I was in the treatment arm.
Then I started looking at the signalling cascade, just as you have done. I commend you for doing so. It is incredibly complicated.
I wish I took notes as I did so, but I saw the sun come up on my efforts one night (at it past dawn), as I tracked the signalling cascade.
I concluded that the drugs I was taking *for* heartburn (PPI and antacids) were *causing* heartburn, and worse. I had iatrogenic (doctor-caused) vitamin B12 deficiency. I had iatrogenic GERD (all the treatments over the years actually escalated my symptoms). The treatment was making me sick, and keeping me that way.
I can't tell you how it works (I didn't take any darn notes), but I came to the conclusion that B12, betaine, and bromelain would turn it all around. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) too, but I already took that. And magnesium, but again, I already took that. (Zinc and selenium are part as well, but again, I already took those.)
Deficiencies in B12, betaine, magnesium, and ascorbic acid, break the signalling cascade. Bromelain independently helps, both as a proteolytic enzyme, and as a digestive tract anti-inflammatory.
When the signalling cascade fails, digestion fails. When digestion fails, you fall into malnutrition. Malnutrition breaks the signalling cascade. It's a circle.
Like I said, I was the poster boy for heartburn. I was in the clinical trial for Nexium. I could not be six hours late with my Prilosec (fore-runner to Nexium), or I suffered. After figuring out the supplements, I did the experiment. 1000 mcg B12/day. Upped my magnesium to 600 mg/day. 1,000 mg TMG. Plus bromelain at each meal. And turmeric once a day (anti-inflammatory). (In addition to my regular nutrient intake).
I did not ever take Prilosec again, within two weeks of beginning the supplement protocol. I don't need it any more. (I gave a nine-month supply away. Believe me, it took me a long time to have faith enough to do that. GERD had almost become part of who I was.) I stopped "needing" the Maalox within two days, and gradually eliminated it altogether. I do occasionally get an upset stomach, but my chronic heartburn is gone. They told me I needed surgery, which *might* help the GERD. I needed vitamins.
Now, about betaine. I used the freebase (betaine hydrochloride, also known as trimethylglycine (TMG)). Also known as anhydrous betaine.
You'll see recommendations by some people to use betaine hydrochloride for low stomach acid. That may be a coincidence. It does provide hydrochloric acid, directly releasing some into the stomach as it dissolves (you must be very careful not to let it dissolve on the way down the throat). But, it supplies betaine too. I think it's the betaine that really helps. I didn't ever use betaine hydrochloride. Anhydrous betaine itself worked for me. TMG or anhydrous betaine readily dissolves in water, and has a mildly sweet flavour.
Your body may vary.
> Well, after all those years of Antacid use, might the acid in the tummy be to low to stimilate Secretin, as a result - Secretin to low to stimulate a bi-carb dump from the Pancreas, as a result, the contents travel down the rest of the tract with a non-neutral ph, resulting in possible acid burns which after time, might get so irritated as to induce motility problems?I've never looked at the bicarb pump regulation.
I've always assumed the motility disturbances were from chronic functional malnutrition. Complicated by overgrowth of little critters that fermented the stuff that didn't digest in the stomach. Their excretions are irritants.
> Not to mention, making the environment inhospitable for the normal realease of other secretions, hormones, etc...
That's one of the reasons I like adding in enzymes. Can't hurt, might help. Hormones stabilize when you get the digestion part balanced out.
Bromelain is proteolytic, and survives digestion. It also has some anti-inflammatory properties.
> 2. Before he had his Gallbladder taken, they did a spinctography (sp) and found malfunction, but after they took the organ, they said it looked perfectly fine. Suspect=Cholecystokinin, lack of.
> Side note: It's apparently common for those with schiz. or anxiety to have "abberated" expression of CCK.I can't make sense of that word you used, "spinctography". Did they do a gallbladder scan, to check his response to CCK?
Why would they remove a normal organ?
> 3. He has Narcoleptic calibur urges to sleep immediately after eating and NEVER has any energy otherwise. Suspect=Ghrelin.
That's one possibility. Another is reactive hypoglycemia. Have you tried avoiding high glycemic index foods?
> 4. Never before a sweet tooth, now practically breaking into the bakery at night - his sugar cravings are unprecidented. Suspect=Gastric Inhibitory PeptideWhy do you connect that to sugar?
Has he had a glucose tolerance test?
> That one's a stretch, but my theory is that if the Enteric Nervous System is constantly "tasting" the
> lumenal environment and interpreting them as acidic (of course not knowing about the overuse of ant-acids thus inhibiting Secretin) might it employ sugar cravings to stimulate the release of GIP?I'm doubtful that the lumen becomes acidified. The whole point of antacids is to neutralize acid in the gastric environment, predisposing the duodenum to complete the task already begun. The chyme in the enteric environment ought not to be acidic. Especially so if achlorhydria/hypochlorhydria, complicated by antacid use, is the underlying dysfunction.
> There's so much more, I could go on all year, but why? I've brought these ideas up, but the doc's look at me like I'm just some stay at home mom who has too much spare time on her hands. They say, well er, we don't feel that uh- hmmm, well, no, no, that testing wouldn't be...here, try some famotidine! Don't call me in the morning.That is quite the opposite to what is required. Pepcid is the wrong tactic.
I'm sorry that you don't get good discussions going with the doctors. Being unable to pronounce the words as they do, mis-spellings (there are some in your post).....they don't contribute towards what you're looking to get.
The other thing is, doctors are not taught anything about these things. Seriously. You're over their heads, unless you're dealing with an internist who specializes in digestive tract issues.
> Lar, if I may impose - what do you think?Well, food for thought.
We'll see where this takes us, soon enough.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:497418
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050510/msgs/501711.html