Posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:22:16
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 9:11:12
> I don't understand Pfeiffer's argument to avoid folate.
Well, I'm glad to hear you say that because it seemed to contradict everything else I've read. What gave me pause is that this is this guy's life's work! "How can he be so wrong?", I thought. I thought I just was misunderstanding this stuff because the chemistry is incomprehensible to me.
> Methionine doesn't. Not literally. Only if it's been converted to SAMe.
>
> > TMG can provide a methyl group only to the extent that there is insufficient FOLATE/B-12 to do the job.
>
> Not true. B-12 and TMG are both methyl-donors, but the molecule which takes part in methylation reactions that are of concern in mood disorders is SAMe. B-12 and TMG provide the methyl group to homocysteine to turn it back into methionine.
>
> Here's a visual representation:
>
> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/meth-fig1.jpg
>
> Note that cyanocobalamin *consumes* SAMe. That's why methylcobalamin is the preferred form of B-12.I've heard that the methylcobalamin is preferred, but not that the cyanocobalamin form of B12 was actually CONTRAINDICATED...is that what you mean there? (If one wants to increase SAMe) I bought some of the methyl form, but have been taking it with the other because I had two bottles of the other.
> Your body recycles homocysteine to methionine because dietary sources of methionine may be unreliable (in an historical sense, in evolutionary history). If that cycle gets stalled at homocysteine, only dietary supply can give you methionine. Moreover, homocysteine is doing damage that places even more burden on SAMe. It can set up a vicious cycle. If you think of homocysteine as the basic raw material, which is then methylated (to methionine), then adenosinated (to SAMe), it makes sense to have most of that core stuff already to use, rather than used up. That's just my way of looking at it.Ok ... we don't have to ever worry about having not-enough-homocysteine to do the conversion (ultimately) to SAMe if we have methionine per diet but we do have to worry about excess homocysteing if enough of it's not converting. So the core stuff we want to increase is either/ both the methionine or the anti-homocysteine. Hence the usefulness of TMG, methionine supplementation (or per diet) and other anti-homocysteine agents such as the B vits. Btw, I know eggs are a dietary source of methionine, and I eat them regularly and even looked forward to eating them...until I started taking SAMe, when they became less of a draw. (I'm a firm believer that the foods we find ourselves craving or drawn to are often an indication of what our body actually NEEDS....although I didn't notice these things very well until I started taking magnesium.)
> Which seems contrary to earlier statements, non?
> > [Quoting Dr. Walsh] TMG can be very useful in augmenting methionine therapy along with B-6/P-5-P , serine, etc. The challenge is to supply enough methyl groups to help the patient, without creating dangerously high levels of homocysteine.
> I don't understand this statement at all. Supplying methyl groups reduces homocysteine, unless all the "supply" is in the form of cyanocobalamin.It's enough to make me doubt the entire Pfeiffer Clinic, quite frankly, if this guy is supposed to be one of the big shots there.
> > So, is folic acid contraindicated for the undermethylated or not?
> My personal opinion is, no, it is not contraindicated. However, you have to "do the experiment" on yourself to have any insight whatsoever.I've usually taken a B complex but never noticed feeling either better or worse taking it or not taking it suggesting to me that I'm not very sensitive to folic acid in either direction.
> > I'm not sure I understood that distinction about the slow SAMe cycle, but what I concluded was, not knowing if I'm a "slow cycler" or not that I'd hedge my bets and take both TMG AND methionine...using the TMG to counteract homocysteine for one thing, especially if I decrease folic acid.
>
> Yes. Good idea.Good, glad I got something right out of all that. :)
> > (I had a great result with SAMe, but found it too expensive and when I was taking it as my only anti-depressant remedy, that it pooped out after about 2 months.) I recall Larry's explanation to Ron Hill re why this might happen and concluded that with methionine, it might not.
>
> Let's hope.Indeed! SAMe pooping out was very crushing to my hopes of realizing a dream for natural remedies in place of ADs.
> > Should I be concerned about the folic acid in my B-complex? Is 400 or 800 mg per day a good amount or is it contraindicated? (I don't eat green leafy veggies, so I figure my dietary amount is pretty neglible.) Is this something one could evaluate "in real time" with trial and error? (i.e. take some TODAY, feel better or worse TODAY)
>
> I don't think it would be that quick. How fast did you respond to SAMe?Most recently, I felt better within a day or two, but I was also newly supplementing with tyrosine too. When I tried SAMe previously it was also prior to magnesium supplementation. My experience now is that ANYTHING I tried in the past before mg, works differently now.
> From your next post:
> "So, "methionine, calcium, magnesium and B6" is SAMe equivalent? "
>
> Presuming you form SAMe in reasonable amounts, i.e. you don't have a genetic defect in SAMe synthesis.
>
> There is no clear "one-size-fits-all" answer, IMHO. Try a nutrient, or groups of nutrients(based on reasonable educated guesses), and see if they help you feel better, or not.Right. Thanks! :)
JL
poster:JLx
thread:278139
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/278483.html