Posted by detroitpistons on January 27, 2010, at 23:24:44
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! - They make 'it' much easier, posted by bleauberry on January 27, 2010, at 18:28:23
Bleau,
Agree to disagree. However, I think this is more than just a matter of personal opinion, so I feel compelled to respond further.
You had originally stated the following:
"Just for clarification, it is a proven fact that suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders are significantly lower in areas where there is a high level of gun ownership. In areas where there are few guns, suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders skyrocket. Gun ownership tends to ward off chaos and evil, as the founding fathers knew. A murder is less likely to happen when the potential murderer knows his target also has a loaded gun.
This is all kind of backwards from our first instinctual response, but it is statistical fact."
I think you are incorrect in proclaiming some of those statements above as "statistical fact." To the contrary, everything I have read seems to indicate the exact opposite. Nothing has been "proven" yet, more data is needed, and more research will be performed. Eventually, we'll be able to sort out the nuances of this statistical relationship and be able to paint a better picture and understand exactly how causation fits in, but that level of detail is a little beyond the scope of this discussion. For our purposes, I think the evidence that we already have about guns and suicide is overwhelmingly at odds with the statements made in your quote.
One thing is becoming increasingly clear: Individuals who own a gun are more likely to commit suicide than are other individuals, period. I feel comfortable in saying that this is much more of a "statistical fact" than is your claim. If you can find something that supports your claim, I'd love to see it.
Most of the data that do exist and the research studies seem to indicate a strong correlation between gun ownership and the likelihood of suicide. I have to admit, I'm a little short on time now, so I haven't yet researched this as thoroughly as I would have liked. Here are at least a couple things to consider:
- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17risk.html
- http://econweb.umd.edu/~duggan/guns-suic-final.pdfAlso, I think it's an oversimplification to say that everybody will just use a rope or take pills or drive their car into a wall. There's a lot more to it than that. You can't just assume that every single person in every situation will find a different option and execute it successfully. There are lots of scenarios and examples that prove this. Some people are just ignorant and they really don't know a good way to do it. There are millions of scenarios. Again, the data show that owning a gun does make suicide easier and more likely.
Regarding this: "As I see it, the benefits of gun ownership far outweigh by a huge margin the risks."
For a depressed person with prior suicide attempts? I seriously doubt that the benefits outweigh the risk for someone with that history. Remember, we're talking about a select population of people here who have mood disorders, not all of America. In order for the benefits of gun ownership to outweigh the risks for a depressive with past suicide attempts, that person would have to be living in a severely dangerous location, like in the middle of the Amazon surrounded by hungry crocodiles.
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> Thanks for sharing. I don't disagree or agree, but respect the differing opinions in light of the fact that every home is going to present a different environment, scenario of possibilities, risks, and benefits.
>
> My personal opinion is that a gun does not make it any more likely or less likely that someone will commit suicide. A rope does just fine in the absence of a gun. Much less mess too, if they are at all concerned about family members cleaning up the mess. A car driven off the highway into a tree does the job and doesn't look like suicide. And it's free. A gun costs money. Or find the breaker box in the house and grab the main wire. It's ll over in the blink of an eye. Chug down a bottle of Tequila along with a few Xanax or Klonopin, and it's a gentle smooth way to drift away forever without any drama or mess.
>
> The point is, if someone is going to commit suicide, a gun is not going to make it more easy or less easy. It is just another option among several already available.
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> That's how I see it anyway. I've seen three suicides in my life. None involved a gun despite easy access to one in the room they killed themselves in.
>
> Ok, let's assume some law says no one with depression can keep their gun. The Constitution says otherwise. It is a right of being a citizen. But that's another story. Ok, no gun, they took it away. Does that mean that person is more likely to live? No. Like I said, a rope, an electrical outlet, a car, a bathtub, and drugs, even an overdose of Vodka for pete's sake...all just as easy as gun, some as rapid, and some smoother and painless.
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> My opinion, a gun makes no difference one way or the other.
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> Throughout life, nothing is fair and nothing is guaranteed. Everything is a risk versus benefit scenario. As I see it, the benefits of gun ownership far outweigh by a huge margin the risks.
>
> A family member deciding to hide a gun owned by a suicidal depressed family member, well, they shouldn't be surprised to come home and find that person hanging from a rope.
poster:detroitpistons
thread:933660
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100122/msgs/935200.html