Posted by bleauberry on July 15, 2009, at 16:25:23
In reply to Euphoric high on first trail w/NARDIL .. you too?, posted by UGottaHaveHope on July 15, 2009, at 9:48:09
First thing I asked myself was, "was this a hypomanic episode?"
>It took nearly 12 full weeks to kick in, after a lot of nasty side effects that went away (light-headed, constipation, etc.) but I got a euphoric high for a few months.
That leads me to believe it was not a hypomania thing. Hypomania would likely have shown up much sooner. 12 weeks is right in line with expected therapeutic action.
>I started getting back confidence and everything.
Hypomania comes with something considerably more than "started" getting back confidence. It is more like invincible superman confidence beyond what would be considered normal confidence in a strong healthy human being.
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> Then slowly over time, I guess the same effect left. Since then, I have remained on Nardil but never been able to get back to that initial Nardil "high."I wonder though, are you still well? I mean, I know the euphoric stuff is a whimper now, but is there depression? I'm trying to get a grasp on whether you are nondepressed but lacking the euphoric high, or whether some depression has returned. What do you think? If you had to choose to remain where you are now and be thankful for it, or to be the way you were before Nardil, which is better?
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> 1) Has anyone else experience that?I don't know if it is a mild poopout, a tolerance to the dose level, or what.
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> Right now I take 45mg Nardil, 50-75 Seroquel, and 2-3mg Klonopin. I actually bumped up to 60mg Nardil since I weigh 250 pounds within the LAST WEEK, and it is destroying my sleep, which surprises me since I am taking Seroquel. I'm guessing the only way to solve this would be to go down in Nardil ... any input here, too?
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> THANKSIt could be one of several things that crossed my mind:
1. According to veterans of Nardil, the suppliers and batches of Nardil now are not consistent. Maybe the batch you had in the euphoric days was a good one, and the batch you have now is slightly flawed? Though I don't understand it all, I do get the message that Nardil is very tricky to manufacture and can have variable quality from minor quirks in the manufacturing process.
2. I understand sleep is an issue, and probably anxiety? Set that aside for a moment. Seroquel in my opinion is doing you no favors and probably cutting quite an edge off the goodness of Nardil. The same goes for those doses of Klonopin. If the dose was in the .5mg to 1mg range I don't think it would such an issue. Maybe Lorazepam or xanax would be options to try? Klonopin is just basically a rather depressing med for most people and though Nardil is more powerful, Klono can cut the good edge off Nardil.
3. The dose might have to go higher. But as you pointed out, sleep needs to be addressed seriously. I do not like the choice of seroquel to do that. I think it hurts people than helps and they don't realize it. Just my own observation.
4. Maybe the euphoric effect is gone forever, a nice memory, but the rest of life will have to be viewed as a blessing to at least be free of the dark place you came from?
I don't know if low doses of Amitriptyline can be taken with Nardil. I wonder if anyone knows? I know Nortriptyline is fairly safe, but I don't know about Amitriptyline. I am tempted to think 25mg is safe enough. That in my opinion is a much better sleep option. I kind of wonder if Lunesta would have the power to overcome Nardil insomnia but I think it is definitely worth a try. Go for 100% to 200% of the max dose. I think some magnesium, as much as you can tolerate, would be good as a base to help sleep mechanisms function better.
Melatonin. I think one of the reasons insomnia happens frequently with ssris and maois is because melatonin comes from serotonin...when serotonin is prevented from going its natural course, melatonin suffers.
So what I guess I am saying is:
1. Slowly get rid of the seroquel (squashing down Nardil). Option is Zyprexa, a much better med, but lacks the knockout power of seroquel.
2. Slowly decrease the klonopin (squashing down Nardil). Options are xanax or lorazepam.
3. A base of magnesium and melatonin for sleep circuitry, even if they do not at first seem to put a dent in it.
4. Explore other sleep options, which might include Amitriptyline, Lunesta, Doxepin? I'm really not sure on the TCAs safety with MAOIs so you will have to ask SLS about that. I know for sure Clomipramine is a big no-no.
5. Try to think back on what else has changed. For example, did you drink more coffee back then? Has it been an unusually long dreary season such as in New England this year? Might it be associated with a seasonal change or daylength? Are you getting as much sunshine as you did then? Are you doing the same activities you did then? Have you been eating a lot sugar foods that would be increasing yeast in the gut? (feeding your brain their toxins that are absorbed into nerve endings along with neurotransmitters, corrupting the whole mood process) Going forward, make a dedicated goal of very little sugar of any kind, heavy on veggies, good proteins, go very light on the breads, pastas, and such. Should be mostly veggies and fruits. It is a hard change but honestly makes everything work so much better. Frustrating though because it takes several months to see the difference, and a month or so of maybe feeling a little worse (like breaking a mild addiction to something that makes you feel good but is actually harming you).
6. Thank God these days are not the bad ones you came from.
poster:bleauberry
thread:906849
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20090709/msgs/906915.html