Posted by Vincent_QC on March 2, 2009, at 7:11:17
In reply to Re: Dopamine raises + NE reuptake = worsing SAD ?? » Vincent_QC, posted by Michael Bell on March 1, 2009, at 12:13:46
> Nardil is effective, yes, but consider what nardil does: it raises serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine and GABA. The current belief is that that the reason why it is more effective than other MAOIs for most people with social phobia is because it is a GABA transanimase inhibitor in addition to an MAO inhibitor. Deprenyl, an MAO inhibitor, is not anywhere near as effective for social phobia, because all it does is increase dopamine and PEA. In fact Deprenyl often exacerbates social anxiety. Furthermore, increasing norepinephrine by way of MAO inhibition is not the same as blocking its reuptake. The drugs that block reuptake of norepinephrine (as opposed to raising it by way of MAO inhibition) tend to get very poor reviews for social phobia.
>
> Regarding Oxytocin, the most effective drugs for social phobia, even moreso than Nardil or Klonopin, are GHB and MDMA, because they are prosocial, not merely anti-anxiety meds. They actually stimulate Oxytocin release. People with social phobia actually have abnormally high oxytocin levels, so it is believed that merely raising oxytocin levels won't help, but that there is a breakdown in the release factor and the binding to oxytocin receptors that is the problem as far as that neuropeptide is concerned.
>
> But you are right, new discoveries are being made every day, so maybe ten years down the road they will not even be looking at neurotransmitters for anxiety and depression problems. Could be a problem with alleles, or with inflammation, etc. Who knows?
>
>Hi Michael,
Yeah, I agree for the Nardil...but the Gaba inhibition is another discussion issue... I think the gaba of type A or type B action is overrated on SAD... I had a more strong answer to the Parnate, who is suppose to be a MAOI who don't cause the inhibition of the Gaba of with a Gaba-energic effect... The Nardil do have some good effects on me, but it was less effective than the Parnate, maybe because I was already addicted to the benzos drugs before I begin it??? Anyway, the addiction to the benzos drugs is a proof for me that's they are not a good solution to treat the SAD...They are the most powerfull gaba-A agonist... Now, it's seem that i'm stuck with a Benzos addiction since 2005 and I will never be able to stop them, even if I try severals times to withdraw them with the Dr Asthon method (Valium...1mg cut week)... The Gaba effect pop-out for most of the people after a couple of months...so I don't think the Gaba-A effect or the Gaba-B inhibition have a strong action on the SAD people... Anyway, for now, you can't cure at 100% the SAD, since it's probably one of the most complicated mental disease to treat...The Rivotril, who was suppose to be the best drug for social phobia, in a combination with the Nardil, didn't do anything really good for me...nothing compare with the Parnate action alone...too bad the heart and blood pression was a major issue for me with the Parnate...
I now understand more what you are saying...Inihibion and reuptake is different...I don't want to argue about this, but I wonder why some people will answer very well to stimulants drugs to help them with their SAD...and why others people with SAD will answer well to just a regular SSRI's or a SRNI's (Effexor and Cymbalta share the same NE reuptake action ..no???)... And why some people with SAD answer well to the more stimulant AD's like the Prozac (the more stimulant SSRI) or the Wellbutrin??? Why others people with SAD answer well to TCA's who works only on the NE reuptake?...That's so difficult to understand...and explain... Why in my case I don't have a good reaction to meds who act on the serotonin??? They make me more anxious... Does it's mean that the Serotonin reuptake is worsing the SAD ??? Why I answer more well to drugs who increase the NE...by the inhibition or the reuptake??? Why I can drink more than 10 cups of coffee by day, without having more anxiety and without worsing my SAD...making me PRO-sociable...and why some others people can't drink a single cup of coffee without having a panic attack and feeling a lot bad in socials situations???
So much questions, so less answer... I think that the magic reciepe don't exist for now for the SAD...
I do a mistake yesterday...I'm stuck with a SAD problem since i'm 19yo...so i'm like that since 14 years...not 12years... and enought is enought... I do a lot of CBT therapies, I had severals psychologists, I change often of PDoc, I try every dawm meds that exist and nothing really works on me and when it's seem to works, I have strong side-effects that almost kill me and don't fade-away with time...
I wonder what you do when everything fails and you are treatments resistants??? You commit suicide or you stay in your house or your appartement for the rest of your life??? I'm lucky to not being suicidal...because I probably will not be a part of this world since a lot of times...
The thruth is that for now, the SAD is a not well know problem and research about that specific problem don't seem to be very productive and give good results... The researchers and Doctors who work on that field don't seem to understand it very well and don't seem to know where to look... At the same time, pharmaceutical companies put a lot of pressure on the FDA or Health Canada to impose their products and they want to make believe to the people who suffer from the SAD that their products are the only one good to treat the SAD... but that's not the thruth...it's all about money, they don't care about the people who suffer from this disease...
From my experience, the NE reuptake and the DA raise is not worsing the SAD... the facts is that no drugs for now succeed to produce a strong and robust treatment to CURE the SAD...contrary to people who only suffer of depression ( I don't minimise the depression problem, that's also a terrible disease)...but at least, the depression can be cure at 100% in most of the case, after severals tries of AD's... When you add co-morbidities to the SAD like BDD, GAD, Panic disorder with agoraphobia and depression, lack of energy and motivation and some ADD and cognitives problems related to the benzos drugs addiction, you end-up trying every meds avaible, sometimes alone, sometimes in combo...and nothing seem to improve your state and you became more depressed and more anxious...that's like a big circle that never ending...you look for the exit but you never find it...even with a good exposure therapy...and repetitive exposition time in social situation, you continue to feel bad in social situation...and you continue to feel like you are ugly and that people around you judge you or look at you...
I do believe that giving benzos drugs to someone with SAD is not recommended, the Rivotril is highly addictive and pop-out often after a couple of weeks... the Xanax, well know for it's powerfull action, especially on the panic disorder problem with agoraphobia or not, is probably worse for the addiction than the Rivotril...these meds are just like putting a bandage on the problem without curing it or control it... I see the Gaba drugs as a a kind of addiction like alcohol or street drugs...nothing more good or less bad... If I was aware about the possible addiction of the Rivotril in 2005, i'm sure I will not be in the same state of minds 4 years later...Being stuck with an addiction to a med, a med who don't work anymore, but if you don't take it you became almost crazy...that's really disappointing and frustrating...
Anyway, I repeat myself...I'm not frustrated about you or what you write, it's your own experience, but you cannot apply the same model or patern or meds experiences on the others, we are all different and we all react differently to meds...
For the oxycontin level, I don't think it's also another important fact in the SAD...And for the paranoia, I don't even know if AP's works well or not for SAD people....I try all of them at highg or not high dosages...they always worse my SAD...making me almost always on the panic attack mood with a more pronounced agoraphobia problem and a lot of hands shake and muscles cramps...
I know one thing, the Seroquel is the only AP that I can take in a low dosage...and it's the only med who can put me asleep for more than 5 hours in a row...at 50mg dosage...I will need to increase it soon at 75mg because I begin to be awake early... I don't know if the D2 effect and the 5HTP2 effect is worsing the SAD, but I don't care, I just want to be able to sleep at night...at least when I sleep I don't think and my minds have a break...even if I dreams a lot since I was put on the Clomipramine...
Well that's all for now...and that's enought... it was a nice discussion ;-)
Have a good day and take care of you!
All I hope is that everyone with SAD on this board will find their own way to treat and control their SAD... Keep the faith everyone!!!
Bye!
Vincent
poster:Vincent_QC
thread:883142
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20090223/msgs/883331.html