Posted by linkadge on August 15, 2007, at 13:02:15
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Percocet for Depression » linkadge, posted by Quintal on August 15, 2007, at 0:32:15
>You seemed to be addressing some of the points >in my post. It helps is you stay on-topic, or >people are liable to become confused, especially >when dealing with subjects of a technical >nature. It's not a question of how I think the >thread should behave.
Speak for yourself. If others are confused they can let me know.
>I think you've objected very strongly on the few >occasions where I have accidentally omitted >qualifiers like 'can' from a few sentences. I >expect other people to abide by the standards >they ask of me.
I though thats what this was about :)
It would have been clearer (for me) that you use the word *can* in your statement. Others may have understood your post completely. You don't have to change the way you post on my account.
>What is their purpose if they have no specific >point?
Who says I need to have a purpose.
>Are you aware of any published studies that >conclude that opiates have a distinct >antidepressant effect that is separate from the >euphoriant effect?
See below.
>Euphoria is an abnormally elevated mood, and >depression is abnormally low mood, so they're >opposites really. I don't see how one could be >truly euphoric and depressed at the same time.
Easy. Its called "mixed states", and it can occur when severly depressed patients self medicate.
There is lots of research on what destinquishes an antdiepressant from a euphoriant. Some findings are the following:
Drugs of abuse (in general) reduce hippocampal proliferation and neurogenesis. Ie cocaine, amphetamines, nicotine etc, wherase antidepressants enhance it. (Not sure what effects opiates have)
Drugs of abuse and antidepressants have destinct and divergent patterns of gene expression (BDNF). Antidepressants increase hippocampal levels of BDNF, but not affecting gene transcription in the neucleus accumbens. Drugs of abuse generally have no positive effect on gene transcription in the hippocampus but tend to increase BDNF in the neucleus accumbens. Enhancing BDNF in the NAA produces a behavioral depressant effect wherase the opposite is true to increasing BDNF in the hippocampus.
See: (pertaining to the effect of BDNF in the neucleus accumbens on behavioral depression)
And since you asked, here are, in no particular order, a number of studies pertaining to some of what I have been saying. I cannot locate some studies, but there is a lot of reading here on the topic of convergent effects of opiates and antidepressants in some patients, as well as some of the possable antidepressant mechanisms of the opiates. There are listed below certain antidepressant effects of the opiates which have been teased away from the euphorint effects.
1) The effect of morphine on endogious depressives.
http://www.opioids.com/antidepressant/history.html
2) Is morphine an antidepressant? (animal model)
http://biopsychiatry.com/lhmorph.htm
3) Opiates, depressives, and the HPA axis.
http://opioids.com/naloxone/depcrf.html
4) The effects of various opiate receptor agonists and antagonists on learned helplessnes
http://opioids.com/enkephalinase/lhelplessness.html
5) Antidepressant, antimanic & Antipanic effects of opiates.
http://opioids.com/cogmood/antidepressant.html
6) Historical concepts of opiate treatment in psychiatry
http://opioids.com/cogmood/history.html
7) Opiate receptor downregulation in the theraptutic effect of imipramine
http://biopsychiatry.com/imipramine-deltaopioid.htm
8) Opiate system in efficacy of venlafaxine
http://biopsychiatry.com/venlafaxine-opioidergic.htm
9) The opiate system in the theraptutic effect of fluoxetine
http://biopsychiatry.com/fluoxopi.htm
10) The effect of buprenorphine in depression.
http://biopsychiatry.com/bupref.html
11) The antidepressant effect of substane P inhibitors
http://biopsychiatry.com/subp.htm
http://biopsychiatry.com/substancep-antag.htm12) Substance P in Major depression
http://biopsychiatry.com/substancep-depression.htm
13) The effects of opiates on substance P
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v268/n5620/abs/268549a0.html
14) Mu and delta opiate receptor occupancy on the inhibition of substance P. Feldman, et.
al, 1997).Reference within text:
http://www.humboldt.edu/~morgan/opia_s04.htm
15) Naloxone blocks the anxianxiety effect of neuropeptide y
http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/11311731
16) Neuropeptide Y neurotransmission may be associated with the mechanism of action of various antidepressant treatments
http://biopsychiatry.com/neuropep-y.htm17) Morphine, a mood brigtening smart drug
http://opioids.com/cogmood/morphine.html
18) Case studies, long term relief of depression in highly refractory cases with fixed doses of oxycodone.
http://opioids.com/antidepressant/opiate.html
19) Use of opiates in highly refractory AD and ECT nonresponce.
http://opioids.com/antidepressant/opiates.html
20) The DST and as predictor of responce to opiates.
http://opioids.com/antidepressant/depression-subtypes.html
21) Methadone and morphine in depression
http://opioids.com/antidepressant/index.html
22) The antdiepressant effect of endomorphins.
http://opioids.com/endomorphins/antidepressant.html
There are a lot of interesting links on studies with particular bearing to some of the mentioned connections between opiates, depression, and the behavioral and antidepressant effects of opiate receptor modulation.>In my own experience, I'm finding that the >effect opiates have on my mood is directly >proportional to the euphoriant effects. As >euphoria is fading due to tolerance, so is the >antidepressant effect.
I hope you find some of the above case reports of interest. Listed is one individual who achieved his longest state of clinical remision with a fixed dose of oxcodone. I would assume that a euphoriant effect would not have lasted almost 2 years on a fixed dose. And if it did..all the better!
Linkadge
poster:linkadge
thread:775567
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20070815/msgs/776428.html