Posted by Quintal on August 15, 2007, at 0:32:15
In reply to Re: Vicodin and Percocet for Depression, posted by linkadge on August 14, 2007, at 21:43:58
>But who says I am required to stay within the confines of how you think the thread should behave?
You seemed to be addressing some of the points in my post. It helps is you stay on-topic, or people are liable to become confused, especially when dealing with subjects of a technical nature. It's not a question of how I think the thread should behave.
>I am allowed to just make general comments.
I think you've objected very strongly on the few occasions where I have accidentally omitted qualifiers like 'can' from a few sentences. I expect other people to abide by the standards they ask of me.
>They needn't always have a specific point.
What is their purpose if they have no specific point? Are you able to prevent yourself from making comments that have no specific point? If you are, I'd be grateful if you made an effort to do that when communicating with me, and I will do the same in return.
>The term "mood elevating" is abiguous as it applies to the effects of antidepressants and euphoriants.
I know, that's what I was hoping to address.
>I agree, at this point the notion that there is an antidepressant effect of the opiates that is destinct from the euphoriant effect is only speculative.
Good.
>But my whole point here is that there are researchers who believe this to be the case and are therefore studying the substances in this respect.
Are you aware of any published studies that conclude that opiates have a distinct antidepressant effect that is separate from the euphoriant effect?
>I doin't understand (?) that is what I said. "Euphoria is not a prerequisite for analgesia." How is that not a true statement (??)
I wasn't saying that statement was untrue. I was saying that analgesia is a somatic effect and antidepressant and euphoriant are psychoactive effects, and I think it would be fairer to compare two psychoactive effects, such as euphoriant and antidepressant. You provided examples of drugs that can be both euphoriant and antidepressant here: "we also have classes of drugs which may produce both euphoria and an antidepressant effect, ie Parnate, Nardil, Amineptine, ketamine, certain cannabanoids, and possably the opiates etc.". Yes, I understand what you're saying now and I agree there are drugs that have both euphoriant and antidepressant effects.
>For instance, euphoriants need not necessarily reduce core symptoms of depression. For instance, amphetamine is a euphoriant, but many not help symptoms such as lack of appetite, insomnia, anxiety, guilt, disrupted HPA axis.
Euphoria is an abnormally elevated mood, and depression is abnormally low mood, so they're opposites really. I don't see how one could be truly euphoric and depressed at the same time. Amphetamine can have powerful antidepressant effects in the sense that mood is elevated. I think this example is confounded because amphetamine is likely to mimic, as side effects, those core symptoms you describe - because it is a powerful stimulant. Therefore common side effects are reduced appetite, insomnia and anxiety. You can't distinguish between lingering depressive symptoms and medication side effects in this particular example because the medication causes as side effects symptoms that are similar to some of the core symptoms of depression. Are you playing Devil's Advocate there link?
>Well, I do know that there is a bit research along the lines of "substance P". Opiates apparently reduce substance P neurotransmission in limbic regions. If I am not mistaken, some of the antidepressant effect of the opiates has been attributed to such effects
I would like to see the studies.
>So, just the fact that the opiates reduce substance P, which, as we now know, can be modulated without producing euphoria, is a bit of a testament to how the opiates may be affecting some aspects of the effective processing *in addition* to producing euphoria.
There is possibility in what you're saying. Opiates may exert some effect on mood by reducing substance P (if that's what studies have shown). I think it's a bit of a stretch though, to attribute anything more than an ancillary role of substance P to the effects of opiates have on mood when their euphoriant (i.e. mood-lifting) effects are most prominent, well researched and extremely well documented. Yes, it's an interesting possibility but needs to be supported by more research. Again, I would like to see these studies that show antidepressant effects that are separate from the euphoriant effects.
In my own experience, I'm finding that the effect opiates have on my mood is directly proportional to the euphoriant effects. As euphoria is fading due to tolerance, so is the antidepressant effect. All other long-term opiate users I've talked to have found the same thing - when tolerance to the euphoriant effects of opiates is complete they no longer have any beneficial effect on mood. Some reach a point where they start to feel depressed despite taking the drug. I'm well aware this is not scientific proof, but it suggests a strong anecdotal link between the euphoriant effects and the antidepressant effect to me.
>You wil need to excuse me if I do indeed babble.
Likewise?
>Not everything I am saying needs to have a point.
Okay.
>I never knew there was a rule about being required to make sence.
I don't know what to say to this.
>Some of what I say can just be taken for what it is.
Can it? Who by, and why is that? Can some of what I say just be taken for what it is?
Q
poster:Quintal
thread:775567
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20070808/msgs/776342.html