Posted by Elroy on May 5, 2005, at 6:49:05
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels??? » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on May 4, 2005, at 22:24:32
I had the fancy blood test done. That was the one which showed the moderately low dopamine, very low normal range epinephrine, and the extremely low norepinephrine (way off the chart, BELOW the bottom of the normal range).
The endocrinologist said that was a great result as it meant that my adrenal gland tumor was not only benign, but that it was NOT a "Pheo" tumor.
The fact that I had circulating levels of very low adrenaline meant nothing to him.
Now my psych doc was puzzled as I have had severe anxiety (kept at bay only by daily Xanax XR, and then just barely as it is always lurking in the background) for almost a year now and she would have (in her words) bet serious money that those levels would have been not only high, but very high.
Well, what about the BEAM Scans (I think that's what they are called) as used by Dr. Eric Braverman and highlighted in his books and practice? Anyone have any experience with that testing protocol as relates to determining actual neurotransmitter levels?
QUOTE: Eric Braverman, M.D. - An Innovator of Brain and Body Medicine by Maria Rabat
BEAM differs from CT scans and MRIs because neither of the latter procedures can assess the brain’s signal activities. Due to the fact that these signals regulate the body, abnormalities that originate within the brain may contribute to or worsen physical illness. Dr. Braverman has worked with this tool for over 20 years, and mainstream medical professionals are just now recognizing it as an essential part of any health assessment. “Once we crack the brain code, we can start repairing what needs to be fixed,” says Dr. Braverman. “BEAM picks all this up in 10 minutes, it’s like a cardiogram of the brain... In addition to his private practice in New York City (with satellite locations in Princeton, NJ, and Penndel, PA), Dr. Braverman is also director of the PATH Foundation, a nonprofit research organization devoted to preventing and treating all aspects of brain chemical disorders as they relate to general health. Dr. Braverman often is called on to lecture at major medical conferences, and has trained hundreds of physicians and health practitioners in his brain-based approach to health care. He is a diplomat of the American Board of Anti-Aging, with training at Harvard, Yale, and NYU medical schools. END QUOTEOr possibly SPECT/PET (single photon/positron emission computed tomography) scans? Anyone have any experience with that testing protocol? Just seems that determining what NTs are actually deficient makes more sense than just throwing serotonin enhancement at every mental problem....
Anyway, I personally would still think that 24-hour urine tests of neurotransmitters would be beneficial just from the viewpoint of knowing what overall body levels were even aside from what was coursing through the brain. Low levels of dopamine, NE and epinephrine along with low levels of cortisol and DHEA would probably be a pretty strong signal that one might be approaching adrenal fatigue, for example (which is NOT a good medical condition to be in).
BTW, I did talk my psych doc into starting me on a dose of 5mg Selegiline twice a day to hopefully start getting those levels up. I have apparently adapted at those low levels (and they've been ery low for a while) as our inclusion of DLPA and / or Tyrosine was immediately felt to be "too much" with an increase in agitation and increase in some of my phsycial symptoms that have been ongoing. In fact, had to start out at 2.5mg once a day (half tablet) and then work up to 5mg once a day and then gradually up to 5mg twice a day and then maybe look at adding in Tyrosine or DLPA....
Just to track the overall body's NT levels have recently asked by endo to include 24-hr urine test (General Assessment Neurotransmitter Test Panel - tracks levels of Serotonin, Dopamine, Epinephrine, Norepinephrine, GABA, PEA, Histamine and Glutamate) along with my monthly 24-hr UFC for cortisol.
Elroy
P.S. Thanks for your info and insight!X
X
X
X> > Ran across this quote on a web site:
> >
> > QUOTE: The most effective way to correct a neurotransmitter deficiency is to perform a simple urine test to measure the neurotransmitter levels. END QUOTE
>
> This has recently been discussed at great length on the alternative board. Here's a post with a link to one of the labs that does the urine testing:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050414/msgs/484920.html
>
> A prominent warning on the lab site reads:
>
> "We have become aware of claims that neurotransmitter testing could be used to diagnose illness. There is no in clinic patient treatment data or work in the world to support claims such as this. Furthermore, the hyperexcretion of neurotransmitters means that the testing is meaningless for diagnostic purposes at this time....Neurotransmitter testing is of no value or benefit at this time when preformed prior to starting treatment of the patient."
>
> The truth of the matter is, they're absolutely correct. 90% of serotonin metabolism is outside the brain, but all the waste goes to urine. Just how are you going to fractionate undifferentiated waste, and imply anything about brain function? They can't even do that from a spinal tap of cerebrospinal fluid.
>
> > (Actually I would personally believe this to be not quite that accurate... Dopamine, Acetylcholine, GABA and Serotonin are probably the most important brain neurotransmitters with dopamine, being the "precursor" for norepinephrine and epinephrine - elroy)
>
> See, there are more reasons to be sceptical.
>
> > I asked my psych doc and she was like clueless. She "seemed" to indicate that she wasn't aware that there was such a test that could be run to determine NT levels (other than running an expensive BEAM scan)?
>
> If such a urine test was useful, it would be routinely used. It's that simple. No guesswork at the doctor's office. Pee in a cup, and get a drug recommendation.
>
> The fact of the matter is, these lab tests are hocus-pocus, used to sell you on the treatment.....which is, ta-da! nutrients. Now, would those nutrients fail to work in the absence of a urine test. No, of course they would work. Do the nutrients depend on a urine confirmatory test to work? Of course not. The urine test is part of the profit-making process for the clinic. Nothing more, and should be given no other credit of any kind.
>
> > It seems to make sense to me that one would check something like this. Why would a psych doc prescribe an SSRI for serotinin deficiency if the patient high normal or even high levels of serotonin but was deficient in dopamine or some other NT??? Is it because this particular SSRI or that particular SSNRI happens to be the flavor of the month?
>
> Based on symptoms. And, if you actually read in the in-depth process of assessment at these clinics that offer urinalysis, they do a physical consult and interview. Seems to me they're planning on treating your symptoms, after all, not your urine.
>
> > Anyone familiar with this test and what it is "technically" called? I believe that it is a 24-hour urine test like that run for cortisol to show your daily total.
>
> Snake oil.
>
> > I'd like to have one run and ascertain my levels. I have anxiety problems almost exclusively (along with a number of other cortisol and possibly candida related {HYSICAL problems) and have been fighting off taking a SSRI or SSNRI....
>
> The salivary cortisol is actually a useful test, and I believe the salivary DHEA is coming up as valid. The only other "fringe" nutrient test I know of that seems to have some science behind is one for zinc, copper, and the metallothionien carrier proteins. That's about it, off the top of my head.
>
> Urine testing for neurotranmsitter waste has never been validated to any internal measure of psychiatric or biochemical function.
>
> > A recent blood test that I took (to check for a pheo tumor) showed that - at that moment - I had minor low dopamine levels, low normal epinephrine and below normal norepinephrine. Unfortunately that was all the NTs that particular test showed, and a blood test only reveals what's circulating at that given moment, so isn't as accurate as a 24-hr urine test for showing totals....
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> If you're low, then I'd be taking dopamine precursors, and B-vitamins. And I would be you dollars to donuts that if you had that fancy bloodtest, they'd start you on dopamine precursors and B-vitamins. Maybe some zinc.
>
> I would be thrilled to trumpet the utility of a test that would match patient to treatment by more than some black magic process, but I don't yet get to do that.
>
> Sorry. But do lest us know if you go ahead. Make sure you note the history and symptoms they ask about, and if the eventual treatment would have made sense without needing the urine-testing.
>
> Best,
> Lar
poster:Elroy
thread:493827
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050504/msgs/493998.html