Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 7:42:41
In reply to tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on August 18, 2003, at 19:39:12
> Hi Larry,
> Being probably the newest addition to your fan club<g>...yep, I am amazed at your knowledge level too.Wow! I have a fan club. Coool!
> Wondering about acetylation..
> Does one get an acetylated form of (x) by mixing vinegar with (x)?Acetylation is the equivalent of adding an alcohol to a hydrocarbon (H- from the hydrocarbon, and HO- from the alcohol, forming water). When you react something with vinegar (acetic acid, or now called ethanoic acid), you end up with the acetate (or ethanoate). The latter would have oxygen atoms between the two alkyl groups. When you see the -yl suffix, there are no intervening oxygens. In real life, the acetyl group (CH3-CH2-) is probably added by a substitution reaction (H- slides off, CH3-CH2- slides on), regulated by an enzyme.
> I find your posts very interesting , especially now I have just added tyrosine into my mix of thyroid meds, vitamins and minerals.
>
> I have a long history..mostly chronic fatigue and really cold hands,feet.What's your body weight like? Over? Under?
>Also always craved meat. I could eat a steak 3 meals a day. Also high thirst (perhaps due to the high protein).
Thirst is an obvious sign of diabetes, too. You've been tested for that, I'm sure? Certain kinds of kidney problems increase thirst too.
> Tried hypoglycemic diets(after a GTT test, 1985, with normal fasting blood sugar, reactive hypoglycemia dropping to borderline absolute levels) no effect.
One consequence of reactive hypoglycemia is stimulation of the adrenal gland. That may complicate thyroid function, as adrenal secretions inhibit thyroid hormone release and conversion.
> Also tried 5 years of various SSRI's(1995-2000) no good effect, some scary side effects...like hand tremour, eye tics, altered perception of traffic speed...
I hated that last one very much. I have superb hand-eye coordination, and having my perception of speed altered was something I took very personally, like a fundamental rock-solid aspect of my being had been messed with (apart from the enhanced risk factor in traffic).
> I started on long history of thyroid meds Aug01 ...some improvements, some worsening of symptoms.
> I came across a "post"< http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=36074.1 >by someone who had added in phenteramine to their thyroid med mix hoping the dopamine would provide a missing bit of the picture. I thought of tyrosine..and that it too has a dopamine pathway..so I am trialling that.About phentermine....just because someone has identified an effect of this drug, wherein a dopaminergic process in one control centre of the brain is activated, does not mean that the drug is a dopamine enhancer, in general. It's just one of the things it does. I know of people who cook on their car engines (on long road trips), but that's not what the engine is "doing".
I'm not criticizing your idea....you're following up on the dopamine regulatory effect on TRH....I'm just saying there's more to phentermine than that.
> I am “starving” about 1/2 hour after I take say 7.5mcg of T3(slow release)..so I thought the dopamine in the tyrosine may block this “starvation” the T3 causes. Thyroid extract(contains T4 +T3 +) also causes an increase in hunger but not quite as pronounced..
I'm a little unclear on the dosage schedule for the T3. Do you take it more than once in a given day? Even an extended release formulation is going to be a poor substitute for the body's production of T3; pills give concentration peaks and valleys, compared to relatively constant (or demand appropriate) T3 production by the organs.
> I thought it looked like I was adding in only a bit of the picture and not the other bits..so I started adding in tyrosine to the mix to try to get some of the missing pathways..perhaps the dopamine to help with temperature and appetite suppression...and perhaps I needed to replace mor than the thyroid pathways if something was missing higher up in the chain.
There are a huge number of interactions between the various glands and organs. It's going to take you some time and some experimentation to determine how you can help your body regulate itself so that you're more comfortable. I'm sure you can do it, but it may not be obvious just how you are going to accomplish it.
Serotonin inhibits thyroid function. Norepinephrine stimulates it. Leptin (hunger modulation) also changes thyoid activity, as does insulin. CRH (indirect adrenal modulator) shuts down T3 production, and so does cortisol. Immune activation (by e.g. cytokines or leukotrienes) can block T3 conversion. I'm just tossing out some ideas about different aspects of physiology that may be the root of your personal thyroid trouble. Which one(s)? <shrug> It's a detective story, and you're the plot.
> The tyrosine appeared to help with the appetite and for the first 2 days just 500mg of tyrosine bought my body temp up about 1.2C to almost 37degrees..all day, although a sweat session around 4am in the morning managed to lower the temp again...both days.(stopped by adding in a tad of estradiol gel transdermally)
> This temp rise only lasted for the first 2 days..on the 3rd, 4th day, it no longer seems to be working..darnDid you try a dose increase? 500 mg is really not very much tyrosine, in the greater scheme of things. Moreover, tyrosine is a direct precursor of levothyroxine (T4).
> I will keep trying. I'm thinking I must have something wrong/missing I the way I break down protein or my body wouldn't have craved it so much all my life..
That's possible. I'm an obligate carnivore, too. It may be the mineral content. Meat is full of zinc, and selenium, and so on.
About the digestive aspect.... For meat digestion, try taking bromelain (which also has immune modulatory effects), TMG, and B-12.
> so I need to find out where..hopefully by working backwards and replace the missing bits...right.
The thyroid enzymes that are core to normal thyroid function require selenium (as selenocysteine). If you're not already taking it, get some selenium yeast. Most selenium supplements are from selenium yeast, but I have seen some that mention selenate or selenite. Avoid the latter.
Selenium is also a neuroprotective antioxidant. Your body may be under massive oxidative stress from the chronic thyroid problems. It's possible your selenium is totally tied up elsewhere. Moreover, if you have amalgam fillings in your teeth, you may have high mercury exposure, which severely impacts selenium and all its enzymes.
The fact that you're needing to take T3 implicates selenium, at least indirectly (there are always other factors that may dominate), but the conversion of levothyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) via deiodinase (three types) requires selenium.
Another way to help protect your selenium (and to deal with oxidative stress in general), is to add in some alphalipoic acid. It's sometimes called the "universal antioxidant" because it is both lipid and water soluble, acts as both an antioxidant and antireductant, and helps recycle both vitamins C and E, enhancing their activities, as well.
If you're under oxidative stress (I really think you are), then fish oil will help restore membranes and receptors to their normal functional condition.
It is also possible (you mention chronic fatigue early on), that you would benefit from Enada NADH. It has been a nearly miraculous addition to my own regimen. It directly enhances energy production at the mitochondrial level.
> That is why I would favour trying tyrosine over phenylanaine for starters, less enzymes, links etc to go thru.
Only one less. And you lose the benefits that only accrue via alternative pathways available to phenylalanine. Not a big difference, perhaps, but you may want to do that experiment later.
> If all the tyrsoine bits work, I guess then go back to the phenylanaine looking for more missing pieces..
Hey, you're thinking like me.... <wink>
> I do have antiTPO, anti TG antibodies, a small thyroidwith nodules on ultrasound..which shows it has been struggling to keep up in my books..
You would benefit from any interventions that reduce your immune system hyper-reactivity. That begins by getting oxidative stress under control. Then, later, you get into further interventions, if they're still required.
>and when I was born my Mum had to give me antihistamines so I could breathe while sucking (little blue pills..phernergan I think)..so I do have something up with histamine response I guess too
I doubt you've carried anything over into adulthood, unless you're reactive to allergens. Even totally normal people get airway opening from antihistamines. That's one of the reasons they're banned in competitive athletics.
> I'm really struggling with all of this altrhough I have spent the past 2 1/2 years trying to research the net, like you said..a lot of stuff is pretty geekish and although I have figured out that "ase" on the end means enzyme, that's about it!That is way important! You have to learn some geek-speak. I bet you know more than that, too. You learn more and more, every time you look at these ideas.
>I really need some courses, but I haven't found any so far to take me thru basic chemistry, biochem, physiol up to this level, lol.
You're doing pretty well right now. Seriously.
> Thaks for reading this,I know most detail has n been left out, ANY suggestions welcomed
> JanMy pleasure. More questions welcomed.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:246486
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030818/msgs/252082.html