Posted by pelorojo on November 7, 2002, at 18:39:17
In reply to Re: PTSD/Social Anxiety-Herbals, posted by Larry Hoover on November 7, 2002, at 9:05:07
I'm happy to meet someone so knowledgeable! Thanks for your reply. Some comments/questions below:
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> Yes, but the beginning of the healing journey may begin with medication which facilitates e.g. cognitive-behavioural therapy. If your thinking is distorted by chronic or recurrent dysthymia or depression, you have to address the symptoms in order to permit useful insight.
>Of course. I've stabilized and the pharmaceuticals I've used so far have leveraged me about as far as I think they can. So I'm looking for next step on this front.
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> There is some evidence that adaptogens may have much lesser effect the longer the chronic stress has continued. The HPA can become 'locked in' to a vicious cycle caused by what some call burn-out.Interesting, I had never read that. I thought the adaptogens were especially useful for chronic stress - it didn't occur to me that long-term stress would reduce their effectiveness.
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> That said, gingko or Siberian ginseng have quite different modes of action when compared to e.g. rhodiola or witheria or licorice root. For example, licorice root blocks liver enzymes affecting interconversion of some of the steroids. I don't like the 'lumping together' of herbs like this.
>Oh yeah - 'adaptogen' encompasses a large number of herbs with different modes of action and presumed benefits. I listed some of those I had identified as potentially useful. It's a tremendous amount of information to swallow at once so I'm hoping to gain some insight about the options on this board.
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> I've never even heard of these drugs before (but I'll certainly look into it). You need to do a 24-hour cortisol/DHEA/DHEA-S to determine your circadian secretion level/pattern. Before you muck around with your hormones, you need both baselines and justification.
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Are there other tests that would be especially useful? Is the test reliable? (I've read some conflicting views on how effective hormone testing is -- especially cortisol -- since being tested itself can alter your cortisol). I've read that many supplements/drugs/herbs affect cortisol, either directly or indirectly. Gosh even caffeine. The substances you take in your body - probably even some foods - are going to alter your cortisol levels. On some level mucking with your hormones is unavoidable. I agree that being reckless or taking other hormones into your body is not to be taken lightly. On the other hand, given the wide range of things that can affect hormones like cortisol, a little experimentation and non-chronic, informed use of herbs like this could be useful.
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> I think norepinephrine (noradrenaline) is actually the key player. It's secreted by the adrenals, and in some respects, dysregulates all the others.Ahh--do you have any recommended reading? I had picked up the serotonin/gaba/DA concept from this website: http://www.socialfear.com/
But it sounds like you're saying NE is at the core of the problem by dysregulating the others. Do you have any favorite references on the topic you could point me to?
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> Whatever. Theories aren't going to make you well. What I'm getting at is that you need to do a series of trials with n=1. You have to try interventions, assess the outcome, go off the intervention, re-assess, and go on it again. That's the only way to know what works for you. I tried rhodiola after someone I knew had astounding results, including sleep normalization. It exacerbated *my* insomnia, and made *me* more anxious. No thought experiment will tell you anything with any certainty.
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Oh I agree -- trying is the only way to know. I want to use the theory though to help me choose what to try in what order -- in the hopes it will be quicker or more cost-effective. Is there another, more rational approach?
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> I'd stay away from 5-HTP. You bypass the rate-limiting step, which your body uses to limit the amount of serotonin in general circulation. You don't want serotonin in your blood, but 5-HTP will do that, because the aromatic-decarboxylase enzyme is found in every organ compartment.
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> You can buy tryptophan for veterinary purposes. It is of equal quality to pharma grade.
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What is inherently bad about serotonin in the blood? Also, isn't it possibly good that 5-HTP skips the rate-limiting step (and that's why it works)? I mean if you are stuck at a suboptimal homeostasis in re: serotonin levels, wouldn't you want to "nudge" that homeostasis to a different level? Could you use the 5-HTP in a pulse fashion (instead of chronically) to help that along? Any favorite resources on this topic?
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> I forget what theanine does, but DLPA gives two bangs for the buck. It's a precursor to the feel-good PEA, as well as being converted into tyrosine.
>Could DLPA conceivably increase cortisol if it raises tyrosine & DA (i.e., DLPA-tyrosine-DA-NE-adrenalin/epinephrine-cortisol)? It seems like anything that raises dopamine or norepinephrine secretion would raise cortisol, wouldn't it? I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, just trying to get a handle on it.
You seem very knowledgeable about SJW! I've been trying to find extract WS 5570 (the one standardized to 4% hyperforin) but I don't think it's available in the U.S. Would you know where to locate it ?
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> I think you may need a slight adjustment in attitude. Rhetorically, why do you think it is that Olympic teams are largely composed of athletes in their late teens and early twenties? There are changes which come with age, and PTSD might well 'age' some parts of us a little faster than we'd like. Comparisons of your 'now' self to your past self may be maladaptive.
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Oh I need a huge adjustment in attitude! But I'm not getting your point here.
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> Just so long as you're not thinking 'cure'.I rely on my tenacious desire to get better. I don't expect a cure but I don't expect no cure, either.
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thanks so much for your thoughts! I'm impressed by your knowledge and look forward to learning more from you.regards
Ken
poster:pelorojo
thread:126446
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021101/msgs/126881.html