Posted by hiba on October 26, 2002, at 1:15:00
In reply to Re: RATIONAL USE OF BENZODIAZAPINES (5.) » Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on October 25, 2002, at 20:22:07
Oh Dear Squiggles,
You are going far and far.
"In unmonitored, erratic dosing of benzos,
symptoms of psychosis may be indistinguishable
from the real thing (i.e. endogenous or non-benzo
related)"This is a wonderful finding. Do you have any scientific evidence to back this ? Benzos, if used for a long time in very high doses and stopped abruptly can cause a syndrome that resembles to psychosis.(But unlike stimulant psychosis which is irreversible, this can be reveresed and treated successfully). Is this what
you mean ? Some benzos in fact used to treat psycosis. Chlordiazepoxide, lorazepam and clonazepam for instance.
And if you have an access to ABPI DATA COMPENDIUM, please see the data sheets of antidepressants (especially tricyclics). You can see the warning: Tricyclics may cause activation of psychosis. Can you show me any such warning in benzodiazepine data sheets ?You are determined to rate benzo withdrawal as heroin withdrawal. I have witnessed many heroin and benzo withdrawals. And in the light of my experience, I can only laugh at your attempt. You are obsessed with the anti-benzo group.
About side effects: If you have experienced more side effects on benzos, you have a right to claim. But generally benzos are much much safer than hard antidepressants and all other medications used in psychiatric practice.. Pharmaceutical manuals (which you always refer in
your messages) will definitely clarify this.ABOUT WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS: Since you are not a Doc or clinical professional, I think it is better to give the reference along with your statements. I am not a Doc or professional . So I don't speak on my own. Let me quote American Psychiatric Association's Task force report on benzos:
"All psychiatric drugs, if taken for more than a brief period, may produce discontinuance signs and symptoms when abruptly stopped, and these symptoms may be an intensified recurrence of the original signs and symptoms, or may be the mirror image (for example, the opposite of the normal therapeutic effect of the drug). Sudden discontinuance of antidepressant drugs, for example, may produce a severe depression, rebound cholinergic symptoms, or agitation, or it may precipitate a manic state. Withdrawal dyskinesia is commonly seen after neuroleptics are abruptly stopped, and a recrudescence of manic symptoms has been reported after abrupt lithium termination." (Page 15)Then why should you blame benzos solely for dependence???
"What is missing the "protracted withdrawal"
syndrome."Oh! what is this? protracted withdrawal syndrome? Any scientific evidence to clarify this PROTRACTED? Plese don't quote those benzophobics or Dr. Ashton. There are enough pharmaceutical manuals which you would like to refer. Any hint from them? I can name some, if you need.
1. MARTINDALE:THE COMPLETE DRUG REFERENCE.2. PHYSICIAN'S DESK REFERENCE.
3. PHARMACOLOGICAL BASIS OF THERAPEUTICS.
4. ABPI DATA COMPENDIUM.
".... my guess is that changes
take place in either the structure or the chemistry
of the brain, after the drug is used for a long time.
Stopping the drug, leaves the brain in a state that has
lost its initial equilibrium and either takes a very long
time (may GABBA receptors or dendrites have to regrow
or something) or equilibrium is never ever reached again."You have your right to guess. But please don't impose them on patients in this board. Besides "GUESS" shouldn't always necessarily be right. The term GABBA for instance. It is not GABBA but GABA.(GAMMA-AMINOBUTYRIC ACID)Please check in your message.
I have personal experience of using benzodiazepines. I have used klonopin upto two years and gradually tapered WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS AT ALL. Now I am afraid of those "PROTRACTED WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS"!!! I hope there will be a benzophobic to predict when I should begin to experience "PROTRACTED WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS".
If a benzo has made you sick, it is not fair to make all benzo users sick. There are millions who use benzos very effectively and benefit from them. Tell us your experience. It is welcome. But insisting on all patients should experience what you experienced is not fun at all.
About Ashton protocols: Her protocol is not working for everyone. The substitution of valium for xanax is not that effective. I have a friend who followed Ashton protocol to withdraw xanax and in his case it was an utter failure. Still I don't generalize this failure. But theoretically xanax is better substituted with klonopin. This is true in practice also.
Dr. Ashton is a single soul. I don't usually rely on such sole findings. Rather I will go for the combined work of scientists where there is only a very small possibility of error.. The references I named above are not the works a single scientist. They are compiled by some groups of reputed scientists.
Good luck Squiggles, Take care
HIBA
poster:hiba
thread:124171
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021025/msgs/125274.html