Posted by MB on July 28, 2001, at 12:45:03
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » MB, posted by Elizabeth on July 27, 2001, at 20:24:08
> > > "nodding?"
> >
> > Yeah, the images are the same, but the circumstances are a little bit different than what I would call "nodding" (and here I risk making a semantic digression). I always considered it nodding when I was in the middle of doing something and I'd wake up from some weird dream five minutes later with drool on my chin.
>
> < g > That sounds about right. In what sense do you think that the Ultram-induced sedation is different (besides the behavioural sign of intentionally going to bed)?
I always felt Ultram sedation had a tinge of "serotonergic" stimulation to it...very mild though...kinda like the bodily sensations of a very low, sub-hallucinogenic dose of LSD. Or the initial sensation of a tiny SSRI dose...almost a "taste" in the mouth, or a feeling in the head I can't describe. The sedation didn't seem to hit until I took large doses (5-6 pills), and the onset was delayed quite a bit...maybe 90 minutes or so. I thought Ultram was a weird drug. I took it once in an attempt to feed a small Vicodin habit (couldn't get vicodin) and it felt like it precipitated a withdrawal (although it might have just *been* withdrawal that the Ultram was too weak to block...I don't know). But when taken at "baseline," the sedation itself seemed a little less peaceful and not as intense as the more straight forward mu agonists.
> > > All opioids do that to me. I have no idea why.
> >
> > Well, is there a positive side to it...I mean, do they help give you energy during the day?
>
> Yes.
>
> > That would be cool.
>
> It sure is. (although I wish the stuff at least came in a pill)
Do you know why it's not active orally? Would taking it with a betacarboline render it orally active (by inhibiting MAO)?
> > > People who take buprenorphine for opioid addiction often need to take it only once a day.
> >
> > Wow! Now *that* totally (there's the valley talk again) surprises me.
>
> Yeah, I don't know why it works either.
>
> > Let me rephrase that: Like, wow dude, that's like totally no way, man. How was that? ;-)
>
> Very nicely put.
>
> > Why do you think the dosing schedule for pain and/or depression is different than the dosing schedule for addiction?
>
> I have absolutely no idea.
>
> > I guess different underlying disorders require individualized treatment. The pharmacology behind it piques my curiosity. It might give some insight into the disorders being treated...
>
> Yes, it might. I wouldn't even know where to look to try to figure it out, though. It might be due, at least in part, to the fact that addicts often are required to go to a special clinic every day (at least, when they first start out on maintenance). Going to the clinic four times daily would be pretty inconvenient, and taking the full daily dose all in the morning seems to work okay.
>
> > I wonder if the same people endorsing a once-a-day dosing schedule for addicts on buprenorphine are the same ones who say you can go 48 hrs without a methadone dose and not get sick (sarcasm here not directed at you, by the way).
>
> I've actually encountered people who've used it for addiction who said it gets them through a full day without cravings.
Maybe blocking craving is different than alleviating the physical symptoms of withdrawal? Maybe therein lies the descrepency between my isolated experience and the report of others: I was medicating physical withdrawal, and they were medicating post-acute withdrawal cravings??? Or maybe It's just because I'm a freak < g >?
> > OK, so I think the term "melencholia" would be the opposite of what I feel withdrawing (if there are opposites to emotions < g >).
>
> In what sense do you mean?
Well, from the way you described melencholia, as being marked by anhedonia, it seemed contrary to my experience of withdrawal which is marked by an almost satisfying sadness...one of those odd sadnesses where it almost feels "good" to revel in the heartache...like where you can't stop crying because you're in love, or something crazy like that. It's that quality that seems "opposite" (in terms of types of depression) from an anhedonic melencholia (where there would be no pleasure, not even twisted delight in the sweetness of sadness). Of course, there's nothing satifying (even remotely) about the physical sensation that your flesh has been peeled off by red hot razors and your body has been placed in a bath of ice under a ceiling fan).
> > > It's just one of those odd feelings that people can have. Even a generally skeptical atheist can have a "mystical experience" under the right conditions.
> >
> > Yeah, I saw a show where I guy tried to explain near death experiences as physiological anomolies by reproducing something similar in a healthy mind by placing powerful magnets near certain parts of the brain. Now *that* was quite a run-on sentence. Anyway, the person felt a "presence" in the room...some felt there were supernatural overtones.
>
> I'd buy that. I wonder whether some superstitions and myths could have arisen from this sort of experience.Probably. I think ascetic practices (and the abberations in brain chemistry they induce) are probably another source of ancient stories of mystical experience. Then there is the possibility that hallucinogenic plants were involved. The greatest concentrations of witch burnings in medieval Europe seem to coincide with the regions in which ergot fungus flourished. This would explain not only bizzare behavior on the part of those accused of being witches, but reports (hallucinations?) of certain people being "seen with the Devil."
poster:MB
thread:70206
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010725/msgs/72238.html