Posted by SLS on April 23, 2001, at 11:31:08
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA)...so what's the verdi, posted by mikes on April 22, 2001, at 21:03:01
Hi Mike.
I'm sure you expected this, so here we go... :-)
> As for everyone else who may read this post- I went to a rave last night. The way these parties are demonized is absolutely ridiculous. It's just a bunch of kids having fun. As for the ecstasy use, can anyone show me any evidence that links ecstasy use to depression? Not theoretical bullshit. Actual studies, or large bodies of anecdotal evidence, that correlate use with depression.
Again with the "bullshit"? I find that using such an expletitive is a bit counterproductive when trying to establish a credible opinion in a forum like this. I am probably guilty of doing the same thing myself from time to time.
> I think it's important that negative effects of drugs should be looked at outside of the scientific and medical contexts. We need to ask questions like, "Are ecstasy users less happy in general than people who have never touched the drug?" I don't know for sure, but I would guess that their quality of life is similar.
Perhaps you should set out to answer your questions methodologically instead of offering a "guess". I don't think a guess is appropriate given the magnitude of the consequences should it be wrong. In addition, just because someone judges that a substance that makes them feel good is good for them doesn't mean that it is. My "guess" is that most people could create a list of substances that fit into this category.
I am not sure that within the body of medical and neuroscience literature you will find evidence sufficient for you to give credence to the contention that there are adverse effects, both temporary and permanent, associated with MDMA use. However, for me, in light of the following citations, I find it difficult to ignore this possibility. It would seem difficult to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that such adverse effects do not occur, and that we can all take MDMA without hurting ourselves. I don't know. Perhaps you can demonstrate that we can.
Although I see that someone else has already taken the time to put together a list of citations, my emotional self won't justify my not posting this as I have already invested the time in putting it together.
This was real simple to do...
It is a Medline search using the format: "depression" AND (MDMA OR methylenedioxymethamphetamine)
Please note that the result of this search does not address neurotoxicity and brain damage. The results of such a search produce seven times as many citations, for what it's worth.
For anyone who is not familiar with retrieving the full abstract display on Medline, I posted it at:
http://home.att.net/~sl.schofield/special/miscellaneous/mdma.html
You will find that some abstracts make it clear that, despite their results being consistent with MDMA adverse effects, an absolute conclusion of causation could not be determined through their study design. That's pretty good science. You might be able to find a few studies that refute entirely the findings of the many others. There is no selectivity for which studies are displayed as a result of the search. Many of these studies introduce statements characterizing the MDMA adverse properties as being putative, reflecting the findings of previous investigations. The full text would produce in their bibliography those citations upon which their statements are based. You will find that some of the studies found in the Medline results are actually dedicated to a review of the science literature and previous reports. These types of investigations often serve well to describe and summarize the history, volume, and depth of study of a particular question or issue, and display a trend or consensus to be found in their results.
The point of my posting is that I believe that any comprehensive presentation of MDMA should include a focused review of the scientific literature, no matter how bogus it may be. Anything short of that is, in my estimation, irresponsible.
I hope this helps to promote an informed dialogue. I am not very interested to get involved any further than I have here. I do not have a vested interested in the answers to these questions.
- Scott
poster:SLS
thread:52203
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010417/msgs/60853.html