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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on December 6, 2004, at 7:48:28
I try to do something over which I have lots of control. I play computer games (geometric puzzle games). I color geometric designs. I play with geometric lego-like toys. Gee, I think I like geometric things. They make me feel like there is order in the world.
Maybe being able to structure this little part of my world makes me feel less out of control (that's what the anxiety is about for me - being out of control). Like now.
I'm thinking I should take my dogs for a walk and do my Yoga tape, but I'm almost afraid to stand up because I feel like I'll be out of control - not able to decide where to move to and what to do. At least when I'm sitting here I am *grounded* in some way. There is only so much flailing one can do sitting down with one's legs on a stool straight out in front, and one's arms stretched out on the table reaching for the keyboard. Gee, I think I'm a little tense today.
I think I'll take the dogs for a walk and do my yoga. But I have to get dressed first, and go to the bathroom and brush my hair and find socks (I think I do not have a clean pair - I have lots of clean single socks), or maybe I'll wear my shoes without socks because otherwise I'll spend 2 hours looking for socks and I won't get the walk and I won't do the yoga and I'll be late for therapy.
Sorry to make this all about me... I think I'll put this in a new thread.......
Posted by cubic_me on December 6, 2004, at 9:15:26
In reply to All about Falls' anxiety, posted by fallsfall on December 6, 2004, at 7:48:28
Falls, I think it'd be ok for you to wear an odd pair of socks (just wear long pants!), or go without - the dogs won't care what you look like and it'll give you something to talk about with your T.
I know it's not easy but....relax!
Posted by daisym on December 6, 2004, at 12:53:56
In reply to All about Falls' anxiety, posted by fallsfall on December 6, 2004, at 7:48:28
Maybe if we convince ourselves that socks don't have to match we can relieve some of the anxiety. I think working with geometric shapes is a great idea. Problem is, I get frustrated because I can't don't know how it all fits together and I need a set of directions to follow.
I guess that is the root cause of anxiety -- not knowing what to do next, or where this path is leading. I hope your session helped you to feel less anxious.
Someone wise once said: When all else fails, eat ice cream. (you give good advice!)
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 6, 2004, at 14:14:38
In reply to All about Falls' anxiety, posted by fallsfall on December 6, 2004, at 7:48:28
It sounds to me like we are a lot alike in how we feel but different to our approach..I feel often out of control but I tend to have taken control by having a lot of order to have that control if this makes sense..Like with the socks..I do wash every day ,,,I have a drawer of socks all rolled up with its mate..much of my clothes and cds are in order and so on..I would be lost if I did not have the things I need where I need them for example if I do not exercise everyday it bugs me ...so I make sure the night before things are set up to do so...I need the exercise for my stress and well am a fitness freak...Maybe if you want you can go woth dirty socks on and just a hat on leave your hair dirty... the dogs will love the walk...then get home and do the yoga..then wash what you wore and dry it and keep it in a bag in the bathroom for tomorrow and so on? Just an idea...for me on exercise I use to hate it now I do not even think on it or my shall we say sypplies its a habit not like signing on aol....it can be like that for you maybe once you get more into the exercise ...It takes a lot control to exercise your body..I have nice muscle mass now too :)
> I try to do something over which I have lots of control. I play computer games (geometric puzzle games). I color geometric designs. I play with geometric lego-like toys. Gee, I think I like geometric things. They make me feel like there is order in the world.
>
> Maybe being able to structure this little part of my world makes me feel less out of control (that's what the anxiety is about for me - being out of control). Like now.
>
> I'm thinking I should take my dogs for a walk and do my Yoga tape, but I'm almost afraid to stand up because I feel like I'll be out of control - not able to decide where to move to and what to do. At least when I'm sitting here I am *grounded* in some way. There is only so much flailing one can do sitting down with one's legs on a stool straight out in front, and one's arms stretched out on the table reaching for the keyboard. Gee, I think I'm a little tense today.
>
> I think I'll take the dogs for a walk and do my yoga. But I have to get dressed first, and go to the bathroom and brush my hair and find socks (I think I do not have a clean pair - I have lots of clean single socks), or maybe I'll wear my shoes without socks because otherwise I'll spend 2 hours looking for socks and I won't get the walk and I won't do the yoga and I'll be late for therapy.
>
> Sorry to make this all about me... I think I'll put this in a new thread.......
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2004, at 19:18:22
In reply to All about Falls' anxiety, posted by fallsfall on December 6, 2004, at 7:48:28
That's one way my husband manages his anxiety too. Puzzles, logical things. I like to lose myself in the internet. Click, click, click, click. Very soothing until it gives me a headache.
How was the walk?
Posted by ghost on December 6, 2004, at 19:50:43
In reply to All about Falls' anxiety, posted by fallsfall on December 6, 2004, at 7:48:28
falls,
if it helps to think about it, there's order in chaos. fractals (those beautiful geometric patterns) are actually ordered chaotic mathematical expressions.
it's okay to be anxious. but if it helps, there's even order in chaos. :)
thinking of you lately,
ghost
Posted by yoshimi on December 7, 2004, at 0:41:47
In reply to Re: All about Falls' anxiety » fallsfall, posted by ghost on December 6, 2004, at 19:50:43
Oh, do you like math fallsfall? I mean besides
geometry too? I used to go to the used bookstores
and get tutor guides for the SAT and LSAT,
and do all the math problems. Geometry is
very relaxing. Do you know about Fibonacci
Sequence and the Golden Mean?
Math and art and music are all really related.Fallsfall, i think its fine to wear as many
socks in whatever colors matching or not
as you want especially for therapy. Im sorry
you have anxiety, i have had crippling anxiety
last week too. It is finally easing a little
bit. I hope yours eases up too.peace,
yoshimi
Posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:07:29
In reply to Re: All about Falls' anxiety » fallsfall, posted by cubic_me on December 6, 2004, at 9:15:26
The problem with the mismatched socks is that they don't *feel* the same. Some are longer, some are shorter, some have a pattern woven in that you can feel, some are thick, some are thin.
It isn't so much that other people will notice - but it makes me feel unbalanced.
I ended up wearing no socks.
Relaxing would be good...
Posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:10:05
In reply to Re: All about Falls' anxiety, posted by daisym on December 6, 2004, at 12:53:56
That's why I like my coloring books. They have already made the shapes fit - I just have to make them pretty and organized.
Ice cream is good.
My session did reduce part of the anxiety. He was pretty adamant that I need to stop dancing around my issue and just face it. But now I have to face it...
Posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:17:56
In reply to Re: All about Falls' anxiety, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 6, 2004, at 14:14:38
I'm definately into control! But at the same time, I'm fighting being competent (like not doing my laundry). So one part of me is making the other part unhappy.
I am trying to learn to go with the flow more, and plan less - to be OK if things aren't arranged just so. Spontaneity is so hard for me!
Exercise is supposed to make us feel better - and when I walk the dogs and do my yoga, it does help. Maybe when doing that every day gets easy, I can add something else in, too.
Posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:20:13
In reply to Re: All about Falls' anxiety » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2004, at 19:18:22
I play geometric games on the computer, so I get the logic and the clicking at the same time!
The walk was cold, and I was antsy. I ended up jogging (I *NEVER* jog - I barely walk). I even was jogging up a hill - what's with that? The dogs liked it...
Posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:23:48
In reply to Re: All about Falls' anxiety » fallsfall, posted by ghost on December 6, 2004, at 19:50:43
Yes. Knowing that the order exists does help. Sometimes it is hard to find. Sometimes you have to look really hard to see it. But it is there.
Why is a lack of order - a lack of control - so terrifying? That question could keep me busy in therapy for months, I think.
Posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:25:50
In reply to Math, posted by yoshimi on December 7, 2004, at 0:41:47
Yes, I have a MA in math. I'm a software engineer (when I'm able to work). I was a music major my freshman year in college. I like Bach the best - his music is very precise, yet complicated.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 7, 2004, at 12:45:33
In reply to Re: All about Falls' anxiety » Fallen4MyT, posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:17:56
Hey Falls I understand...I have read that when we don't do..it is also a control issue too that we control things by NOT doing too...so maybe it is not being competent maybe youre very good at control...I don't know?...BUT :) I do know that yes with time exercise gets to be like turning on the T.V just a part of every day without a lot of thought but..in the meantime maybe setting your stuff out ahead to do yoga and walk the dog would help..I didn't mean to mislead you I am not one who cannot miss a day of wash or if a CD is out of place I do not get upset..I just find I move towards order
> I'm definately into control! But at the same time, I'm fighting being competent (like not doing my laundry). So one part of me is making the other part unhappy.
>
> I am trying to learn to go with the flow more, and plan less - to be OK if things aren't arranged just so. Spontaneity is so hard for me!
>
> Exercise is supposed to make us feel better - and when I walk the dogs and do my yoga, it does help. Maybe when doing that every day gets easy, I can add something else in, too.
Posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:50:48
In reply to All about Falls' anxiety, posted by fallsfall on December 6, 2004, at 7:48:28
I saw my therapist.
I told him about two friends, who I had no patience for this weekend. They each have a problem that they really don't want to face. I usually try to be patient and gentle with them - just trying to put the idea out (again) that they need to face their issues, and I try to understand that they just aren't ready to do that yet, and I try to understand their pain with the ongoing issue. This weekend, I was painfully blunt with both of them. And I said to my therapist "So what is it that *I'm* not willing to face?"
I told him about a dream. I was at summer camp and I needed to pack up to leave. I had so much stuff to pack. Why had I brought boxes and boxes of books to summer camp? I hadn't read them at all. I was so annoyed that I had to pack up all this stuff that I shouldn't have brought with me in the first place. I brought the books "just in case I needed to have something to read" - in case I had to escape from the "summer camp" things and go back to something more comfortable for me.
And I told him about a metaphor for my depression. It is like a sprained ankle. A sprained ankle is not the end of the world, but it is a good idea to have it looked at. And if you keep spraining it, it gets weaker, and easier to re-sprain. And eventually, if you keep spraining it, you will have a permanent limp, or maybe even not be able to walk. And therapy is like the ace bandage - that gives support and gives the ankle a chance to heal. Or is therapy like the pain relievers (that can also mask the pain so you don't take care of the ankle when you should)?
He told me he liked my metaphor, that it was a good one. But that he wanted to set the metaphor aside and talk more concretely. That he wanted me to tell him what I was struggling with. That he wanted me to talk about my depression without using metaphors.
I sat for a minute, silently, and then I looked at him and asked "Would you rather ask a different question?". For the rest of the session (10 minutes? 15 minutes?) I couldn't talk. I couldn't tell him concretely what was worrying me. I couldn't even tell him why I couldn't tell him. The anxiety washed over every thought I had - the thoughts sank to the bottom and were completely covered by the anxiety.
When I think about the session, he did exactly the right thing. I was practically begging him to take a hard line with me - to *make* me face the issue. I had told him that I knew that I had to move through this issue - because it was too painful to stay where I am. Yet when he did call me on it. When he asked me to stop dancing around it - to face it straight on... I couldn't do it.
In a way, I want to be mad at him for not leading me into it more gradually. But I know that if I were mad at him, that it would just be a distraction away from the issue. It is time for me to face this. Why is this so hard to do?
Posted by antigua on December 7, 2004, at 14:21:43
In reply to More about Falls' anxiety, posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:50:48
The core things are supposed to be hard to face, but you already know that, and when you name them and give them substance they will (hopefully) lose their power over you, eventually maybe? I'm still working on it.
Maybe you're like me and just too smart for your own good--I have to have everything figured out before I can bring it up. That way, my conversations w/my T are very analytical. She can get me to see another point of view, but I'm always leading w/my brain. My emotions always play second fiddle. When they take over, I do not feel safe and something bad tends to happen.
Really, I mean that.
antigua
Posted by littleone on December 7, 2004, at 14:26:02
In reply to More about Falls' anxiety, posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:50:48
> He told me he liked my metaphor, that it was a good one. But that he wanted to set the metaphor aside and talk more concretely. That he wanted me to tell him what I was struggling with. That he wanted me to talk about my depression without using metaphors.
Sorry falls, I don't have an answer for you. But that paragraph you wrote scared the bejes*s out of me. It sounds like you thought you handled it badly from then on, but I think you are incredibly brave to actually sit down and think it out. Kudos to you. And your T for ditching the metaphors. Metaphors are my life.
Posted by daisym on December 7, 2004, at 20:16:49
In reply to More about Falls' anxiety, posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:50:48
<<< told him about two friends, who I had no patience for this weekend. They each have a problem that they really don't want to face. I usually try to be patient and gentle with them - just trying to put the idea out (again) that they need to face their issues, and I try to understand that they just aren't ready to do that yet, and I try to understand their pain with the ongoing issue. This weekend, I was painfully blunt with both of them. And I said to my therapist "So what is it that *I'm* not willing to face?"
>>>No one has unlimited patience for other people and their issues. Like most things, we can see solutions for others, we can see the path they should walk and we might even see the potential pitfalls along the way and want to warn them. What we can't see are the ghosts that walk the path with that person; we don't know what is being whispered in their ear and we can't feel the irrational fear that keeps them frozen and unable to make changes. Don't be too hard on yourself. Sometimes blunt is a necessary evil.
I like your metaphor too. And I think describing feelings and fears without metaphors is really, really hard. For me, I have very little practice expressing my own needs and fears so I NEED something to help me. Besides, rarely are metaphors wrong. I worry that when I say something straight out that I'm going to wrong. And I hate to be wrong. Worse, sometimes saying things out loud makes them real. REALLY real. And naming stuff means dealing with it, perhaps changing and change is often painful and hard.I'm glad you feel like he pushed you the right amount. But I'm sorry you are struggling so much. At least this was on Monday and you have a couple of more tries to talk things out before the weekend. I'm sure he recognizes how hard this is and will guide you so that the anxiety doesn't overwhelm you.
This is old advice, but valuable - try letting yourself just write free flow. Or if writing isn't working, turn on a tape recorder and just talk out loud. It is amazing what can come out. Even if you just write down all the questions that keep popping up. Because the questions are the path...
(((Fallsfall)))
Posted by fallsfall on December 8, 2004, at 8:40:03
In reply to Re: All about Falls' anxiety » fallsfall, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 7, 2004, at 12:45:33
Yes, being not competent is my way of being in control. And that is what we are trying to change.
Thanks.
Posted by fallsfall on December 8, 2004, at 8:41:46
In reply to Re: More about Falls' anxiety, posted by antigua on December 7, 2004, at 14:21:43
Exactly. I am trying very hard not to have everything all figured out before I talk about it. And he does help me think stuff through - he asks questions that I wouldn't think of, he asks questions that I would avoid. I know that it is valuable to just *be* more and plan less. But it is incredibly hard.
Posted by fallsfall on December 8, 2004, at 8:46:50
In reply to Re: More about Falls' anxiety » fallsfall, posted by littleone on December 7, 2004, at 14:26:02
Yes, it "scared the bejes*s out of me", too. I see him again tomorrow. I am trying, trying, trying to get to a point where I'll be able to talk with out the metaphors by then.
We've actually talked concretely about this before. I'm not quite sure why I have to hide so much right now. I'm trying to remember that therapy is this way - up and down, open and hiding, - and trying to have myself push in the direction I want to go, but remember that I have to "ride" the waves. Sort of like driving in snow - you can try to aim the car, but if you try too hard you get out of control, the best strategy is to let the car do what it has to do, and nudge it in the right direction.
Love those metaphors.
Posted by fallsfall on December 8, 2004, at 8:58:36
In reply to Re: More about Falls' anxiety, posted by daisym on December 7, 2004, at 20:16:49
> <<< told him about two friends, who I had no patience for this weekend. They each have a problem that they really don't want to face. I usually try to be patient and gentle with them - just trying to put the idea out (again) that they need to face their issues, and I try to understand that they just aren't ready to do that yet, and I try to understand their pain with the ongoing issue. This weekend, I was painfully blunt with both of them. And I said to my therapist "So what is it that *I'm* not willing to face?"
>
> >>>No one has unlimited patience for other people and their issues. Like most things, we can see solutions for others, we can see the path they should walk and we might even see the potential pitfalls along the way and want to warn them. What we can't see are the ghosts that walk the path with that person; we don't know what is being whispered in their ear and we can't feel the irrational fear that keeps them frozen and unable to make changes. Don't be too hard on yourself. Sometimes blunt is a necessary evil.
>
*** It wasn't so much that I thought being blunt was wrong. What was "interesting" was that I felt so impatient with them. I had NO tolerance for their inability to "see" what needed to be done. It was so clear to me (and to my therapist) that the reaction I was having towards them was the reaction I was having towards myself. That I had not tolerance for my *own* hiding, my own talking around things, my own avoidance. I was treating them in the way that I felt *I* needed to be treated: stop being nice and sympathetic, get down to the work, face what needs to be faced. And my therapist (obligingly) performed the role that I needed.
>
> I like your metaphor too. And I think describing feelings and fears without metaphors is really, really hard. For me, I have very little practice expressing my own needs and fears so I NEED something to help me. Besides, rarely are metaphors wrong. I worry that when I say something straight out that I'm going to wrong.*** This is why I love you so much, Daisy. This is exactly the problem. If I say it straight out I'm going to be wrong. I'll finally get the courage up to say what I think and I'll be wrong. If I say that I'll never be able to support myself, he'll say that I can if I want to - and then I'll be an idiot (note, I didn't say "feel like an idiot" - I said "BE an idiot") because I'm trying to get off easy, not do the hard work, give up. If I say that I'll do what I need to do to get to a place where I *can* support myself, then he'll say things like "What will happen if you start working again, but crash again?" or "Can you imagine a future where you *don't* work fulltime?" and I'll think that he sees that I don't have the capability to support myself and feel so stupid because I can't see this myself.
There. That is the concrete.
And I hate to be wrong. Worse, sometimes saying things out loud makes them real. REALLY real. And naming stuff means dealing with it, perhaps changing and change is often painful and hard.
>
> I'm glad you feel like he pushed you the right amount. But I'm sorry you are struggling so much. At least this was on Monday and you have a couple of more tries to talk things out before the weekend. I'm sure he recognizes how hard this is and will guide you so that the anxiety doesn't overwhelm you.
>
> This is old advice, but valuable - try letting yourself just write free flow. Or if writing isn't working, turn on a tape recorder and just talk out loud. It is amazing what can come out. Even if you just write down all the questions that keep popping up. Because the questions are the path...
>
> (((Fallsfall)))
>
>Thanks for the hugs, Daisy.
>
Posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2004, at 23:19:54
In reply to Re: More about Falls' anxiety » antigua, posted by fallsfall on December 8, 2004, at 8:41:46
> Exactly. I am trying very hard not to have everything all figured out before I talk about it. And he does help me think stuff through - he asks questions that I wouldn't think of, he asks questions that I would avoid. I know that it is valuable to just *be* more and plan less. But it is incredibly hard.
You betcha. I'm struggling with the same thing. And I also danced around an issue for several sessions before I was ready to talk about it. I even danced around with myself for months about whether I ever would even consider bringing it up. It was a relief once I did, but boy did it take a lot of prep sessions first.
You'll do it when you are ready. And I'm so happy about how you are taking care of yourself with yoga and such. That's another sign that you are strong enough to deal with whatever comes down the pike.
(((((falls))))
gg
Posted by Fractal on December 9, 2004, at 17:26:52
In reply to Re: Math » yoshimi, posted by fallsfall on December 7, 2004, at 12:25:50
I'm not quite sure where this would go, but do you see everything related to math one way or another, because I'm starting to, but I don't know anyone else who does. I try to talk to my fiancee about it, but he hates math. It make things really lonely.
Posted by fallsfall on December 11, 2004, at 12:45:47
In reply to Re: Math, posted by Fractal on December 9, 2004, at 17:26:52
I see math as a way to represent the ordering of the universe. This is why when my kids say "But I'll never use that in real life" I reply that by learning math, they learn how to think.
Find a geeky friend - it can be a lot of fun.
This is the end of the thread.
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