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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by myco on April 4, 2009, at 18:31:57
In reply to Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal?, posted by qbsbrown on April 4, 2009, at 12:04:46
I think this herb has some health issues youd wanna note. Was pulled from the market up here in Canada...liver issues. But remains for sale in the USA...dunno why - mabye didnt convince the FDA.
Are you giving up on the dopamine increase?
myco
-------> I saw one study where kava was used and helped greatly with benzo withdrawal anxiety symptoms. I've read other literature where it says not safe to combined the two.
>
> What is your opinion? Any experiences?
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 4, 2009, at 19:21:28
In reply to Re: Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 4, 2009, at 18:31:57
Yeah myco, with this horrible benzo withdrawal I'm going through, it seems that I am SO sensitive to anything, any changes, even skullcap and unisom made my withdrawal symptoms much worse today.
What about melatonin? I took it the other night, it didn't do anything, but it wasn't invasive.
Are there studies on melatonin and benzo withdrawal?
Regards,
Brian
Posted by myco on April 4, 2009, at 19:29:41
In reply to Re: Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal?, posted by qbsbrown on April 4, 2009, at 19:21:28
Can't you add back a wee tiny bit of that benzo...or are you on the way down still? Perhaps take the withdraw slower? I dont know if scullcap can be implicated there...how do you mean? it works on benzo receptors. unisom im not sure how that would help valium withdrawal.
Wait it I guess with any added stimulation. Sorry to hear your pain.
I can look up melatonin for benzo withdrawal but ive not heard of its use like that. It has a calming effect ya sure...will initiate sleep. Dont take more than about 1mg though (increased risk of headache etc)...i know the caps are like 3mg each but thats usually way to much for people. One study I read stated a range of 0.1mg to 1mg lol way less. Any more will add sides.
Keep me updated eh...hope you get well. we could all use a wellness in here
M
> Yeah myco, with this horrible benzo withdrawal I'm going through, it seems that I am SO sensitive to anything, any changes, even skullcap and unisom made my withdrawal symptoms much worse today.
>
> What about melatonin? I took it the other night, it didn't do anything, but it wasn't invasive.
>
> Are there studies on melatonin and benzo withdrawal?
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 4, 2009, at 19:44:23
In reply to Re: Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 4, 2009, at 19:29:41
Yeah, looks like everything that I'm finding is saying that melatonin is, or can be beneficial for benzo withdrawal.
Do you think the time released is any better, or is that just for sales, sounding good?
Brian
Posted by myco on April 4, 2009, at 20:31:58
In reply to Re: Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal?, posted by qbsbrown on April 4, 2009, at 19:44:23
I had no idea time release existed. check its bioavailability and ratings among people who buy it on amazon or other sites that are frequented by many.
The issue with regular melatonin is it will help you induce sleep (its your sleep cycle hormone - tells your body to shut down) but it only lasts couple hours in feel....so in theory the extended release should be better but you know that response to that kind of thing is individual. i.e. some people dislike effexor but love eff xr.
myco
------------> Yeah, looks like everything that I'm finding is saying that melatonin is, or can be beneficial for benzo withdrawal.
>
> Do you think the time released is any better, or is that just for sales, sounding good?
>
> Brian
Posted by verne on April 4, 2009, at 22:06:23
In reply to Re: Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 4, 2009, at 20:31:58
I've read that the Kava "root" isn't harmful to the liver and get mine from Kona Farms or iamshaman.com I never notice that much with Kava, good or bad, and rarely use it.
As for benzo withdrawal. I've had no success with melatonin, Gaba, Valerian, Passion Flower and Skullscap to name a few. Most of the typical sedating herbs just make me tired and agitated at the same time with the following exceptions: Graviola and Mulungu - also known as Mulacca.
Both are Amazon rainforest herbs with sedating and anti-depressant qualities without the invasivness or body load you mention. Both are very smooth and nothing like the usual western herbs like valerian - with the accompanying drugged feeling and sweatiness.
I've tried most of the enthno alternatives, some barely legal, the best that Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine have to offer, yet there's no comparison to the amazon herbs. I had a headache for 3 days after ingesting a moderate dose of Kratom from Vietnam. Of all the lotus plants, only the white lotus from a pond in Nepal seemed to have any real effect. You name it, I've probably tried it.
I've had better success buying graviola and mulungu in bulk and capping it myself. I don't know why but the pre-capped is less effective, not mention more expensive. I stay away from any rainforest mixture because they often throw in Passion Flower which is another late-night wallclimber for me.
I recently added one more rainforest herb to the mix which I also buy in bulk: Sarsaparilla. I used to buy it from Nature's Way for a skin condition and noticed that it had a slightly sedating, even analgesic feel to it. The literature bears that out.
The Rainforest Herbs site has extensive literature on all the amazon herbs. However, I usually buy graviola at iherb.com for about 25% less but both sites have been sold out for over two months.
I hope to be off benzos in the next year after a long taper. Recent binge drinking upset the tapering and I'm back where I started.
Verne
Posted by verne on April 4, 2009, at 22:12:54
In reply to Re: Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal?, posted by verne on April 4, 2009, at 22:06:23
I'm sorry: Mulungu and Mulacca are NOT the same thing! I noticed Mulacca in a recent order and assumed it was another spelling. Turns out I ordered it but now can't remember why.
Anyway: Mulungu is the one with the sedating and analgesic properties.
V.
Posted by nolvas on April 8, 2009, at 17:09:22
In reply to Correction, posted by verne on April 4, 2009, at 22:12:54
Here's some quick info that I found about the two plants Verne mentioned. Sounds like an interesting combination :)
http://www.amazon-botanicals.com/Anti_Anxiety_herbs_s/43.htm
Posted by myco on April 8, 2009, at 17:42:45
In reply to Correction, posted by verne on April 4, 2009, at 22:12:54
The Mulungu (Erythrina mulungu) looks interesting for it's effect on GAD.
The Graviola (Annona muricata. common names: Brazilian pawpaw, soursop, prickly custard apple, Soursapi), although appearing to be a good sup by working on DA and SE, makes me somewhat nervous as it's toxic to dopamine neurons and linked to atypical parkinsonism. I've yet to read those studies though...perhaps overreacting. If it's an issue of overuse, it wouldnt bother me.
myco
-------> I'm sorry: Mulungu and Mulacca are NOT the same thing! I noticed Mulacca in a recent order and assumed it was another spelling. Turns out I ordered it but now can't remember why.
>
> Anyway: Mulungu is the one with the sedating and analgesic properties.
>
> V.
Posted by qbsbrown on April 8, 2009, at 17:47:16
In reply to Re: Correction » verne, posted by myco on April 8, 2009, at 17:42:45
How you doin? I'm still working on my benzo withdrawal and trying to find supplements that help.
I took some L Glutamine, took a flight home, and for the first time in 5 years, didn't have anxiety and/or a panic attack on an airplane.
I also just read a study that mentioned niacinimide (b3) assisted in getting people off of valium.
Lastly, I hear great things about L Theanine. A GABA amino, good for calming and slowing/regulating brain waves.
What do you think about this as a list:
L Glutamine
L Theanine
Niacinimide
cal/magSound pretty good?
Regards,
Brian
Posted by verne on April 8, 2009, at 18:02:06
In reply to Re: Correction » verne, posted by myco on April 8, 2009, at 17:42:45
I think the parkinsons study involved natives who ate graviola fruit every day for 30 years. The powdered supplement is made from bark and leaves. I'm too tired to find the source.
VribblesWorth
Posted by verne on April 8, 2009, at 18:14:50
In reply to Hey Myco, posted by qbsbrown on April 8, 2009, at 17:47:16
I've had no success with any of the niacins. I've tried them all: time release, non-flush, and niacinamide. They all give me a raging stomach ache which is a rare complaint for me. 5-HTP and S-ame are sure-fired stomach aches too.
I've heard it suggested that time-release niacinamide may be toxic to the liver.
My favorite among your group is magnesium. I prefer magnesium citrate and malate. Theanine and Glutamine give me the heebie jeebies but I have a paradoxical reaction to many drugs, herbs, and supplements. Even a benzo sometimes makes me more agitated.
verne
Posted by qbsbrown on April 8, 2009, at 18:31:56
In reply to Niacinamide » qbsbrown, posted by verne on April 8, 2009, at 18:14:50
I completely agree with you. I have so many paradoxical reactions to so many herbs/vitamins/supps/meds, it's weird.
I haven't tried the theanine yet, so we'll see how that goes.
i seem to be doing fine on the glutamine.
And I think that the niacinimide has just made me a little tired today. It's actually made me a little depressed, which is oddly a good sign for me, it means that I am ready to lower my dose of valium.
When ever I feel this odd sensation of physical depression in my head, means I'm ready to go down.
So perhaps the niacinimide is doing it's job.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by myco on April 8, 2009, at 20:10:11
In reply to Hey Myco, posted by qbsbrown on April 8, 2009, at 17:47:16
Ya this is a good combo. Plan to use them together or in parts? Make sure you take a quick look for reactions also how to take them properly...ie many sups require proper cofacter administration with them (i.e. vit b6) plus others wont absorb well with certain food etc.
Niacinamide has always been one of my favs along with scullcap. Both have been used for valium withdrawal....dont expect rockin' results though...it will take the edge off not kill the withdrawal. you will still go through some pain but not nearly as much.
I'm ok....pneumonia is clearing thank god...blasted antibiotic resistant strain took the piss out of me. I contacted a pdoc that I had been on the waiting list for ... the wait list was a year but we had a lil chat and hes bumped me up to about 1 or 2 months wait. I'm kinda in the sh*ts over here with sleep meds, messed up immune system, meds that need augmenting badly etc...so i'm on my way finally. finally a maoi friendly dr who likes augmenting and isnt affraid of trying new things. *sighs* in relief....only took like 4 years to get this far lol
So ya im happy...bring the pain (cant remember his name...cop in wheelchair on family guy.....bring the pain! lol I can wait another month.
keep me updated man...nice to see youre also on your way.
myco
---------
> How you doin? I'm still working on my benzo withdrawal and trying to find supplements that help.
>
> I took some L Glutamine, took a flight home, and for the first time in 5 years, didn't have anxiety and/or a panic attack on an airplane.
>
> I also just read a study that mentioned niacinimide (b3) assisted in getting people off of valium.
>
> Lastly, I hear great things about L Theanine. A GABA amino, good for calming and slowing/regulating brain waves.
>
> What do you think about this as a list:
>
> L Glutamine
> L Theanine
> Niacinimide
> cal/mag
>
> Sound pretty good?
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
Posted by myco on April 8, 2009, at 20:14:47
In reply to Graviola and Parkinsons » myco, posted by verne on April 8, 2009, at 18:02:06
I found it today actually in an organic market...product is made my a company called "NOW" (excellent company by the way...high quality everything. american company that also distributes in Canada)....I do need to chill on my supplement use though...I keep buying more and more and more and dont evaluate properly anymore lol my next is L-Arginine then when ive played for a few weeks i'll go something else. This is all while I wait for augmentation though...once I get an augment for nardil my sups will be totally focuses on sedatives only.
myco
------
> I think the parkinsons study involved natives who ate graviola fruit every day for 30 years. The powdered supplement is made from bark and leaves. I'm too tired to find the source.
>
> VribblesWorth
>
>
>
>
Posted by qbsbrown on April 8, 2009, at 21:55:39
In reply to Re: Hey Myco » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 8, 2009, at 20:10:11
I might skip the niacinimide. My brain doesn't seem to like things competing with the gaba (or trying to act in the same manner). I did have less anxiety, i could take a nap, but i couldn't even get out of the bed or house today.
I think I do much better with the amino acids.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by Sigismund on April 9, 2009, at 17:17:41
In reply to Hey Myco, posted by qbsbrown on April 8, 2009, at 17:47:16
Some people say that glutamine can overstimulate.
Posted by qbsbrown on April 9, 2009, at 17:22:27
In reply to Re: Hey Myco » qbsbrown, posted by Sigismund on April 9, 2009, at 17:17:41
Yeah, I read that it could be excitatory for the GABA receptors. But oddly, during my benzo withdrawal hell recently, i took 5mgs. I got on a flight that i was dreading. Not only did I not have anxiety and/or a panic attack (i have one on every flight for the past 5 years), but i could read a magazine, and thoughts were slowed down.
Perhaps I'm having a paradoxical reaction. I dunno what it's doing to my GABA
Posted by myco on April 9, 2009, at 17:32:30
In reply to Re: Hey Myco » qbsbrown, posted by Sigismund on April 9, 2009, at 17:17:41
I've never noticed that. At low doses it's a very tolerable supplement. It's a precursor to GABA and plays a role in memory and learning.
Have you actually begun supplementation of some form Brian? In a way you are like me...perhaps overanalyzing to the extent that nothing gets done lol.
This kind of thing is different for everyone and it's gonna be trial and error. I mean someone can come on here and explain all the biochem to you and in the end it may mean nothing to you, personally, in terms of how you feel. It's best to just try. Trial and error...you will make mistakes along the way sure but just, like ive mentioned, keep starting doses low and get a feel for the supplement first.
I get bizarre reactions all the time with sups/herbs...more to do with being on a MAOI though, in my case. Some people sleep well on valerian other people find it stimulating or irritating.
Just try :o) try out a few things as you are continuing your ongoing studies of what sups are what. ya know?
Myco
---------
> Some people say that glutamine can overstimulate.
Posted by myco on April 9, 2009, at 17:34:49
In reply to Re: Hey Myco » Sigismund, posted by myco on April 9, 2009, at 17:32:30
Posted by qbsbrown on April 9, 2009, at 17:39:50
In reply to Re: Hey Myco » Sigismund, posted by myco on April 9, 2009, at 17:32:30
LOL, yeah, I'm puttin out feelers there for what works for me. For some stupid reason, when I just got back home from my vacation, I went back on my old regiment of about 15 vitamins/supps. Talk about throwing my benzo withdrawal for a loop! heart pounding, sweating, racing thoughts, depression. Probably all the b vitamins I took.
I'm gonna stick with the glutamine.
I think that I'm finding b complex to help.
I'm sticking with cal/mag (just ordered some mag that has glycine in it, supposed to be great)I have some theaine, taurine, and inistol on the way which I will try one by one.
Regards,
Brian
PS- I've always been an overanalyzer. Perhaps because my brain and body are so sensitive!
Posted by Lao Tzu on April 15, 2009, at 6:45:31
In reply to Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal?, posted by qbsbrown on April 4, 2009, at 12:04:46
I don't know for sure, but Kava may help. Niacinamide may help too. All I know for sure is that if you're taking a prescription antidepressant, it's probably not a good idea to take Kava. However, I don't know if there's any interaction if you're just on an anti-anxiety medication. Best to ask a doctor first or a pharmacist.
Posted by tonyz on May 28, 2009, at 14:40:24
In reply to Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal?, posted by qbsbrown on April 4, 2009, at 12:04:46
Didn't read through all the prior postings in this thread but there was an instance reported where a person taking benzos took kava kava and went into a coma. Don't know all the details - age, other drugs may have been taking, level of benzos, etc. I would urge extreme caution. Why not just withdraw from the benzos very slowly. I have had success with this in the past, i.e. withdrawing slowly not combining with kava kava
Posted by opiumden on June 21, 2009, at 20:24:13
In reply to Re: Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal?, posted by tonyz on May 28, 2009, at 14:40:24
benzos are really unlike anything in nature.. i have never taken an herb or supplement and been like wow this is a lot like valium. but kava may help some of the withdrawal effects.
Posted by morganpmiller on June 24, 2009, at 10:52:13
In reply to Re: Is it safe to use Kava during benzo withdrawal?, posted by opiumden on June 21, 2009, at 20:24:13
Picamilon, GABA, Ashwaghanda, Bacopa, all may help. Kava is pretty powerful, as long as you take it just for the time that you withdrawal, you shouldn't have any problems. I know that kava kava can cause liver damage. Just something to think about.
Maganesium/GABA/Ashwaghanda/Bacopa combo may be worth trying. Picamilon can be ordered on the net from a reliable company called Relentless Improvement. Picamilon is GABA bonded with Niacin. Evidently the niacin allows the GABA to cross the BBB. GABA alone is not supposed to be able to cross the BBB. It is still effective because there are GABA receptors throughout the body.
This is the end of the thread.
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