![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by CindyLou on July 14, 2004, at 14:31:45
Hello,
This is an issue that has been plaguing me, and I wasn't sure where to turn. I used to be a frequent poster here, and I thought of you here at PsychoBabble. I hope someone can shed some light on this ...A short background: I have struggled with chronic depression and anxiety for about 20 years now. I have been on several different medications, and combos of meds, over the years. Things really changed for me about 4 years ago after having my daughter -- my whole hormonal/chemical makeup really went crazy. I surely had postpartum depression, and, in looking back, probably some postpartum psychosis as well. Since then, I have been extremely sensitive to meds. Since then also, I have been diagnosed with BPII.
All this to say, the ONLY "med" that really gives me true relief is ALCOHOL. I used to be a big partier, and I stopped drinking for about 10 years. Recently, I started having a glass of wine here and there, and it is amazing how much better it makes me feel. With a glass of wine, or a beer, I all of a sudden can make dinner with no problem, change a poopy diaper with no problem, clean with no problem, be patient with my kids with no problem. My anxiety and irritability all but disappear. It is like a miracle drug for me.
But then there is the stigma. And the chance of addiction. And the embarrassment when a neighbor comes over and I have beer on my breath. I am able to keep things to two drinks at the most per day right now. However, I know in my heart this is probably not smart.
SO my big question is ... what is the alternative? Is there any med out there that mirrors alcohol? Valium, maybe? (That's one I've never tried, since one of the symptoms of meds for me is fatigue. My pdocs say that Valium would knock me out.) I do take Klonapin for anxiety, but can only handle it at night because at the dose it is effective, it makes me need to sleep. (even 1/2 tablet -- 0.25 mg. -- knocks me out). Same issue with Xanax.
My current "cocktail" --
- 450 mg. Lithobid,
- 5 mg. Prozac (just started this, but have taken it several times in the past and it always "poops out" on me after two months -- we are hoping that with the Lithobid it will last longer),
- 5 or 10 mg. Dexedrine for energy during the day,
- 0.25 or 0.5 mg. Klonapin at night for sleep.Needless to say, I have tried all the SSRIs out there. And the tricyclics. I just stopped Lexapro after a year due to "poop-out" (Lots of poop references in this post! We adopted a baby recently, so I guess I have poop on the brain!)
Looking forward to some insight on this sticky issue!
Thanks,
Cindy
Posted by captain on July 14, 2004, at 16:03:04
In reply to Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by CindyLou on July 14, 2004, at 14:31:45
Hi Cindy,
I am no doctor by any means but one of my friends is a counselor/social worker and deals with a lot of these types of issues. She has told me before when i was suffering from anxiety attacks that if i were to have one in a restaurant and couldn't breathe my way out of it, that I should slam a beer! Basically alcohol and things like xanax are both depressents to your system and both give the body a sense of calm to the nerves.
I have been quite a partier as well (28 year old female) and alcoholism run in my family so i have to keep it in check, and I can tell you that if you have that feeling that it is going to get out of hand - then you need to make a change. I know you probably don't want to - but it is best for your family.
I know you said Xanax makes you tired. I cut in half my .5 mg xanax and they used to make me tired, but eventually your body can build a tolerance to the sleepy part and you just feel the calm part. Maybe you need .25's and cut them in half. I think that is a safer route for you to go in my honest opinion.(for what it is worth!)
I hope this helped somewhat! Best of luck!
captain
Posted by Fred23 on July 14, 2004, at 21:29:10
In reply to Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by CindyLou on July 14, 2004, at 14:31:45
> All this to say, the ONLY "med" that really gives me true relief is ALCOHOL.
> SO my big question is ... what is the alternative? Is there any med out there that mirrors alcohol
> Looking forward to some insight on this sticky issue!
This is a theme I have raised many times in my posts in the few months I have been here, which have since scrolled off into the archives.
In January, research was publised that established a genetic pattern that alcoholics have that results in faulty GABA processing. Therefore we need something to quiet our overactive brains.
While investigating that, I found this forum, with a comment by "Elizabeth" how alcohol is a poor and toxic substitute for benzos, esp. Xanax. I tried a friend's Xanax, and found that it worked better than alcohol, and finally got a prescription from my GP for Ativan, though not directly for that reason.
Is the Xanax you are taking name brand or generic? I found that the generic Ativan I took at first had more of a sedative effect than anxiolytic. On the first refill I opted for name brand, and found them far more effective.
Ativan is not like alcohol in the way that Xanax is, but seems to have a "purer" anxiolytic effect, which if hopefully will be "enough."
Some links about that research are:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-01/ace-rfa010704.php
http://www.nattc.org/asme/details.asp?ID=0402dMy idea is that they would practically support the idea of giving people with the alcoholic genetics Xanax to take instead of alcohol.
Posted by Caper on July 15, 2004, at 2:36:08
In reply to Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by CindyLou on July 14, 2004, at 14:31:45
Hi I'm Caper.
I'm going to give my opinion on your questions, for what it's worth. Hope it helps.
Okay, first of all, I'm an alcoholic. No question about it. Depression came years and years before, but now I've been an alcoholic for somewhere between a year and year and a half.
Again these are just my own opinions, but I've been in and out of detoxes many times since October, so maybe some of what I've learned is true.
First, I think just the fact that you are wondering if your alcohol intake and pattern of drinking are okay is a sign that they might not be. People without a problem or not on their way to a problem don't have these doubts/questions. They also don't usually worry about hiding the fact that they've been drinking or about what others may think about it.
Second, I think you may be like me when I started on my way to addiction: you're numbing your emotions, and then you have a break from thinking of whatever it is that makes you depressed in the first place.
Third, there's not much difference between Klonopin and Valium- both are long-acting benzodiazepines. So I'm doubtful Valium is your answer.
Fourth, I'm also diagnosed bipolar II, and have recently been informed by different doctors that about 60% of bipolars end up with a drug addiction/abuse problem. Self-medicating.
I'm not sober now (I mean truly sober...I'm not drunk right now, just not consistently sober) so maybe I have no business giving advice, but I'm going to anyway of course! *smile*
Please be careful! Alcoholism is hell on earth and eventually hurts everyone around you too. And it sneaks up in such a subtle way. I think of it almost as a person- it's my own personal devil. I used like you described at first, then a little more and a little more, etc. A little ended up becoming 6 bottles of wine a day or (when I switched to the hard stuff because wine made me gain too much weight) a litre to a litre and half of vodka a day. In less than a year I was drinking daily an amount of alcohol that would have killed a woman my size the year before. I've backed off considerably, but I'm still so incredibly messed up, and still so shocked that this happened to ME.
If I were you, I'd tell your doctors how you've been feeling. That was my first step. But if you cannot do that (I know it would be hard) start by doing some internet research, or even just checking out the substance use board here on babble.
I hope some of this might help or clarify things a little, and that I didn't sound too preachy. I just get so emotional when I hear of someone who may be about to fall into the alcoholism trap. I think "oh no, please no, don't let it get you!"
Best wishes to you (and the newest addition to your family- Congratulations on that!) Take care.
Caper
> Hello,
> This is an issue that has been plaguing me, and I wasn't sure where to turn. I used to be a frequent poster here, and I thought of you here at PsychoBabble. I hope someone can shed some light on this ...
>
> A short background: I have struggled with chronic depression and anxiety for about 20 years now. I have been on several different medications, and combos of meds, over the years. Things really changed for me about 4 years ago after having my daughter -- my whole hormonal/chemical makeup really went crazy. I surely had postpartum depression, and, in looking back, probably some postpartum psychosis as well. Since then, I have been extremely sensitive to meds. Since then also, I have been diagnosed with BPII.
>
> All this to say, the ONLY "med" that really gives me true relief is ALCOHOL. I used to be a big partier, and I stopped drinking for about 10 years. Recently, I started having a glass of wine here and there, and it is amazing how much better it makes me feel. With a glass of wine, or a beer, I all of a sudden can make dinner with no problem, change a poopy diaper with no problem, clean with no problem, be patient with my kids with no problem. My anxiety and irritability all but disappear. It is like a miracle drug for me.
>
> But then there is the stigma. And the chance of addiction. And the embarrassment when a neighbor comes over and I have beer on my breath. I am able to keep things to two drinks at the most per day right now. However, I know in my heart this is probably not smart.
>
> SO my big question is ... what is the alternative? Is there any med out there that mirrors alcohol? Valium, maybe? (That's one I've never tried, since one of the symptoms of meds for me is fatigue. My pdocs say that Valium would knock me out.) I do take Klonapin for anxiety, but can only handle it at night because at the dose it is effective, it makes me need to sleep. (even 1/2 tablet -- 0.25 mg. -- knocks me out). Same issue with Xanax.
>
> My current "cocktail" --
> - 450 mg. Lithobid,
> - 5 mg. Prozac (just started this, but have taken it several times in the past and it always "poops out" on me after two months -- we are hoping that with the Lithobid it will last longer),
> - 5 or 10 mg. Dexedrine for energy during the day,
> - 0.25 or 0.5 mg. Klonapin at night for sleep.
>
> Needless to say, I have tried all the SSRIs out there. And the tricyclics. I just stopped Lexapro after a year due to "poop-out" (Lots of poop references in this post! We adopted a baby recently, so I guess I have poop on the brain!)
>
> Looking forward to some insight on this sticky issue!
> Thanks,
> Cindy
>
>
Posted by CindyLou on July 15, 2004, at 9:06:43
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? » CindyLou, posted by Caper on July 15, 2004, at 2:36:08
Hi Caper.
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing your story with me. I am sorry to hear about what hell you have been through. How wonderful of you, though, to use your pain to help others.Everything you said rings so true. I was a big "binge" drinker when I was younger, and actually stopped drinking when I was 27 because a therapist told me I was an alcoholic. Even though I didn't drink every day, or hide the alcohol, or drink at work, and even though I could stop (usually), she said it was just a matter of time before I crossed the "invisible line" from emotional need to physical dependency. I stopped drinking for 10 years. It was only about a year ago or so when I had a glass of wine with dinner when we were out with friends. I felt so free and unencumbered. I thought, "this could really help with my PMS and anxiety, if I kept things to one or two glasses." And I was right. It was amazing and kind of scary how much it helps.
But I still remember that "invisible line" my therapist told me about all those years ago. And I know I must have alcoholic tendencies if it has such a profound effect on me. It's interesting -- my mother, who is 80 years old, has been drinking 2-3 Canadian Clubs and waters every night for as long as I can remember. My dad drank martinis. He was never a "stumbling" drunk or anything, but I know he numbed his emotions/anxiety/depression with alcohol, as I am doing now.
I did tell my pdoc about this love affair with alcohol. He wanted to try and increase my Lithobid to 600 mg., thinking that my BPII was to blame. I still can't get above 450 due to the fatigue. I have an appointment with him on Monday, and plan to go over this with him again. I know it is no light matter.
I will definitely check out the substance board here on PsychoBabble. That is a new addition since I used to be a "regular."
Thank you again so much for your openness and honesty.
Take care,
cindy> Hi I'm Caper.
>
> I'm going to give my opinion on your questions, for what it's worth. Hope it helps.
>
> Okay, first of all, I'm an alcoholic. No question about it. Depression came years and years before, but now I've been an alcoholic for somewhere between a year and year and a half.
>
> Again these are just my own opinions, but I've been in and out of detoxes many times since October, so maybe some of what I've learned is true.
>
> First, I think just the fact that you are wondering if your alcohol intake and pattern of drinking are okay is a sign that they might not be. People without a problem or not on their way to a problem don't have these doubts/questions. They also don't usually worry about hiding the fact that they've been drinking or about what others may think about it.
>
> Second, I think you may be like me when I started on my way to addiction: you're numbing your emotions, and then you have a break from thinking of whatever it is that makes you depressed in the first place.
>
> Third, there's not much difference between Klonopin and Valium- both are long-acting benzodiazepines. So I'm doubtful Valium is your answer.
>
> Fourth, I'm also diagnosed bipolar II, and have recently been informed by different doctors that about 60% of bipolars end up with a drug addiction/abuse problem. Self-medicating.
>
> I'm not sober now (I mean truly sober...I'm not drunk right now, just not consistently sober) so maybe I have no business giving advice, but I'm going to anyway of course! *smile*
>
> Please be careful! Alcoholism is hell on earth and eventually hurts everyone around you too. And it sneaks up in such a subtle way. I think of it almost as a person- it's my own personal devil. I used like you described at first, then a little more and a little more, etc. A little ended up becoming 6 bottles of wine a day or (when I switched to the hard stuff because wine made me gain too much weight) a litre to a litre and half of vodka a day. In less than a year I was drinking daily an amount of alcohol that would have killed a woman my size the year before. I've backed off considerably, but I'm still so incredibly messed up, and still so shocked that this happened to ME.
>
> If I were you, I'd tell your doctors how you've been feeling. That was my first step. But if you cannot do that (I know it would be hard) start by doing some internet research, or even just checking out the substance use board here on babble.
>
> I hope some of this might help or clarify things a little, and that I didn't sound too preachy. I just get so emotional when I hear of someone who may be about to fall into the alcoholism trap. I think "oh no, please no, don't let it get you!"
>
> Best wishes to you (and the newest addition to your family- Congratulations on that!) Take care.
>
> Caper
>
>
>
> > Hello,
> > This is an issue that has been plaguing me, and I wasn't sure where to turn. I used to be a frequent poster here, and I thought of you here at PsychoBabble. I hope someone can shed some light on this ...
> >
> > A short background: I have struggled with chronic depression and anxiety for about 20 years now. I have been on several different medications, and combos of meds, over the years. Things really changed for me about 4 years ago after having my daughter -- my whole hormonal/chemical makeup really went crazy. I surely had postpartum depression, and, in looking back, probably some postpartum psychosis as well. Since then, I have been extremely sensitive to meds. Since then also, I have been diagnosed with BPII.
> >
> > All this to say, the ONLY "med" that really gives me true relief is ALCOHOL. I used to be a big partier, and I stopped drinking for about 10 years. Recently, I started having a glass of wine here and there, and it is amazing how much better it makes me feel. With a glass of wine, or a beer, I all of a sudden can make dinner with no problem, change a poopy diaper with no problem, clean with no problem, be patient with my kids with no problem. My anxiety and irritability all but disappear. It is like a miracle drug for me.
> >
> > But then there is the stigma. And the chance of addiction. And the embarrassment when a neighbor comes over and I have beer on my breath. I am able to keep things to two drinks at the most per day right now. However, I know in my heart this is probably not smart.
> >
> > SO my big question is ... what is the alternative? Is there any med out there that mirrors alcohol? Valium, maybe? (That's one I've never tried, since one of the symptoms of meds for me is fatigue. My pdocs say that Valium would knock me out.) I do take Klonapin for anxiety, but can only handle it at night because at the dose it is effective, it makes me need to sleep. (even 1/2 tablet -- 0.25 mg. -- knocks me out). Same issue with Xanax.
> >
> > My current "cocktail" --
> > - 450 mg. Lithobid,
> > - 5 mg. Prozac (just started this, but have taken it several times in the past and it always "poops out" on me after two months -- we are hoping that with the Lithobid it will last longer),
> > - 5 or 10 mg. Dexedrine for energy during the day,
> > - 0.25 or 0.5 mg. Klonapin at night for sleep.
> >
> > Needless to say, I have tried all the SSRIs out there. And the tricyclics. I just stopped Lexapro after a year due to "poop-out" (Lots of poop references in this post! We adopted a baby recently, so I guess I have poop on the brain!)
> >
> > Looking forward to some insight on this sticky issue!
> > Thanks,
> > Cindy
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by CindyLou on July 15, 2004, at 9:14:30
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? » CindyLou, posted by Fred23 on July 14, 2004, at 21:29:10
Hi Captain and Fred,
Thank you for your responses to my post. My Xanax dose is .25 mg. I notice that if I take half, usually nothing happens. If I try another half, I either HAVE to go to sleep, or nothing happens. It seems that I have to keep upping the dose until I get relief, but that relief is accompanied by a profound fatigue where I cannot function.Do you know approximately how long it takes for the Xanax to start working after taking a dose? Maybe I am not waiting long enough. I usually give it about 30 minutes to an hour.
Perhaps if I just take half a tablet for awhile, even if it doesn't work, I can build up a tolerance for it.
I do have a generic form: Alprazolam. I'll talk to my pdoc about getting the brand name.
Thanks so much for your help. That is very interesting that Xanax could possibly be an alternative for me, if I could just tolerate the effective dose. I don't want to continue on with the alcohol because I doesn't seem right; I know I am using it to medicate myself and I could be playing with fire.
Take care,
cindy.
Posted by captain on July 15, 2004, at 9:37:55
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? captain, fred, posted by CindyLou on July 15, 2004, at 9:14:30
Hi Cindy,
It takes about 30 minutes for xanax to kick in, I have the generic too. After taking xanax more regularaly - about every other day - for a few weeks, the tiredness started to wear off but the calming effect was still there. Maybe you just need to get past that part of it - the initial side effects.
you sound good though - so i hope you are on the right track!
captain
Posted by Buckeye Fan on July 15, 2004, at 9:47:19
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? captain, fred, posted by captain on July 15, 2004, at 9:37:55
Hi Cindy,
I agree with Captain.
Xanax ( Alprazolem)is "quick acting" and is probabley the best quick relief for anxiety. It is also true that regular use by keeping a steadier amount in your bloodstream ( same dose at regular intervals) usually leads to the calming effect we seek...without the initial side effect of the fatigue you mention. In any case....
I would recommend almost ANYTHING other than alcohol...even in moderation. I know many will disagree with this, but the potential dangers, health complications, dependency, and long-term damage to our bodies....make alcohol an "empty way" as the late Mickey Mantle confessed toward the end of his life.Its just not worth it.
IMHO
Buckeye Fan
Posted by CindyLou on July 15, 2004, at 9:51:58
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? captain, fred, posted by Buckeye Fan on July 15, 2004, at 9:47:19
Thank you! So, is it best to take the Xanax at regular intervals throughout the day, rather than just "as needed" (when the anxiety hits hard?) If so, how often should I take it? (I will run this all by my pdoc, but for now I really appreciate everyone's advice!)
Thanks again,
cindy> Hi Cindy,
> I agree with Captain.
> Xanax ( Alprazolem)is "quick acting" and is probabley the best quick relief for anxiety. It is also true that regular use by keeping a steadier amount in your bloodstream ( same dose at regular intervals) usually leads to the calming effect we seek...without the initial side effect of the fatigue you mention. In any case....
> I would recommend almost ANYTHING other than alcohol...even in moderation. I know many will disagree with this, but the potential dangers, health complications, dependency, and long-term damage to our bodies....make alcohol an "empty way" as the late Mickey Mantle confessed toward the end of his life.
>
> Its just not worth it.
>
> IMHO
>
> Buckeye Fan
Posted by TenMan on July 15, 2004, at 10:41:46
In reply to Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by CindyLou on July 14, 2004, at 14:31:45
There is a member here named Rick. He takes a combo of klonopin and provigil for his social phobia. He says that the klonopin kills the anxiety he gets and he uses the provigil to counteract the sedation from the klonopin. Perhaps you should look into this combination as dexedrine is known to exsacerbate anxiety in some individuals.
Good Luck.
Posted by Sebastian on July 15, 2004, at 12:47:49
In reply to Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by CindyLou on July 14, 2004, at 14:31:45
I was almost an alcoholic up untill 3 years ago. I use to drink 3-4 large drinks after work to relax and draw conclusions about the day and prepare for the next one. It was great. Then I noticed that my moods were a little out of control, where I would say something rude, and regret it. Also the tiredness in the morning and my poor liver probably wouldn't have liked it forever. So I stoped and got depressed, went on celexa which made me feel happy, when I would think about taking it. I went up and up till the the med was too much and started to decrease. Now I take 60 mg which seems to be the dose, but was growing unhappy with it a month ago, I tried to switch to another one which was worse, now I'm back to the celexa and hoping it will work, so far so good. I'm hoping if I think happy thoughts like I had befor that it will work again. Or maybe I will take a hit of the remeron once in a while for change. Sorry now I'm getting depressed. But I still won't drink like I use to, not that much. So I guess just trying other meds is the solution.
Posted by CindyLou on July 15, 2004, at 13:13:10
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by TenMan on July 15, 2004, at 10:41:46
Thank you, TenMan. I was wondering about the Dexedrine, and the role that might be playing in my anxiety/irritability. I didn't take it today, and, although I am tired, I am not half as ancy and agitated as usual. I have tried Provigil, however, and I get a bad "crash" effect from it, as well as all of the other stimulants I have tried. For some reason, Dex is the easiest on my system as far as crashing goes -- when it wears off, I don't feel sick and exhausted. I only take a very low dose -- 5 mg (sometimes 10 mg) -- but still get jittery on it.
I was wondering if anyone would mention the Dex as a problem. Thanks again,
cindy> There is a member here named Rick. He takes a combo of klonopin and provigil for his social phobia. He says that the klonopin kills the anxiety he gets and he uses the provigil to counteract the sedation from the klonopin. Perhaps you should look into this combination as dexedrine is known to exsacerbate anxiety in some individuals.
>
> Good Luck.
Posted by Buckeye Fan on July 15, 2004, at 16:47:22
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? » Buckeye Fan, posted by CindyLou on July 15, 2004, at 9:51:58
[i]"Thank you! So, is it best to take the Xanax at regular intervals throughout the day, rather than just "as needed" (when the anxiety hits hard?) If so, how often should I take it? (I will run this all by my pdoc, but for now I really appreciate everyone's advice!)"[/i]
Thanks again
CindyLou
************************************************
Dear Cindy,Since xanax is fast acting and has a short half-life...which means it will begin to lose its effect after about 4-6 hours ( everyone's system is a little different)
So some go with .25 three times a day ( morning..afternoon...and evening)for instance.That way there is a pretty constant amount, in your body over a 24 hour period.
I have not had any experience with the new Xanax XR ( extended relief) so I cannot advise on that
choice
Hope this helpsBuckeye Fan
Posted by Sad Panda on July 15, 2004, at 19:47:40
In reply to Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by CindyLou on July 14, 2004, at 14:31:45
> My current "cocktail" --
> - 450 mg. Lithobid,
> - 5 mg. Prozac (just started this, but have taken it several times in the past and it always "poops out" on me after two months -- we are hoping that with the Lithobid it will last longer),
> - 5 or 10 mg. Dexedrine for energy during the day,
> - 0.25 or 0.5 mg. Klonapin at night for sleep.
>
>Hi Cindy,
Does two drinks a day mean you don't need this list of tablets? If that was the case & you could stick to just two drinks a day then it would be the best answer.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by CindyLou on July 15, 2004, at 20:42:40
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? » CindyLou, posted by Sad Panda on July 15, 2004, at 19:47:40
Hi Panda,
No, unfortunately, the drinks are in addition to the tablets.>
> Does two drinks a day mean you don't need this list of tablets? If that was the case & you could stick to just two drinks a day then it would be the best answer.
>
> Cheers,
> Panda.
>
Posted by Sad Panda on July 16, 2004, at 0:40:55
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? » Sad Panda, posted by CindyLou on July 15, 2004, at 20:42:40
I would try Valium or Ativan before bed instead of Klonopin. It would only take a couple of weeks to build up tolerance to it's sedating effect, so I don't know why your doc would worry about it being sedating. Most people tend to prefer a certain benzo, Klonopin tend to be the least noticable while Valium can be like alcohol in a pill. I don't like Valium myself as I find it depresses me, but some say it's great. Xanax could possibly be good too, but I wouldn't try it unless you are resigned to taking benzos for the rest of your days.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by JenStar on July 16, 2004, at 2:18:04
In reply to Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by CindyLou on July 14, 2004, at 14:31:45
hi CindyLou,
congrats on adopting a baby! Awesome, cool, fun. I'd love to hear more about that, if you're up for sharing. If not, I understand. :)About alcohol...such a tricky subject! I'm sure you've heard/read about the research showing that red wine and even other R-OH's can be good for the heart (although there are other studies showing that alcohol can be a risk factor for breast cancer, liver damage, etc.)
I HAVE read that a small amount of alcohol mimics the effect of SSRI's: increases serotonin activity. Then, as you have MORE alcohol, this reverses and you actually feel worse. I don't know how scientifically this was studied or proven, and I can't remember the article or web site where I read it. You'd probably have to research it, or ask your doc to do so. But this might be the key for you -- trying a different SSRI to find one that works. Did you really try them all?
There was the mention of Xanax: I took Xanax for a while myself, and while I ended up liking the feeling of glassy calm that I got, and needed it short term, it also frightened me. I ended up quitting it after getting thru the worse of my anxiety. Xanax can be addicting, and I read testimonials on the web saying that people often had to keep increasing their dosage (for long-term use) to get the same effects. I think Xanax is best used short-term for anxiety, not for generic coping (doc might disagree...but it seems that SSRI's or MAOI's work for this.)
I just re-read my notes and it all seems completely unhelpful. Sorry about that! I guess I don't have any advice, other than this: Drinking alcohol daily for stress reduction is probably not a good idea. But you already knew that, which is why you posted in the first place. (duh...it's getting late...my brain is slowing down!)Could you afford a maid to help with cooking & cleaning sometimes? Maybe get a baby-sitter so you & the hubby can go out for a relaxing nite on the town? How about exercise? Are you able to do that? For me that's a good stress relief. Do you have a regular 'girls nite out' with friends?
Sorry I can't be more help. Good luck, and let us know what you decide.
JenStar
> Hello,
> This is an issue that has been plaguing me, and I wasn't sure where to turn. I used to be a frequent poster here, and I thought of you here at PsychoBabble. I hope someone can shed some light on this ...
>
> A short background: I have struggled with chronic depression and anxiety for about 20 years now. I have been on several different medications, and combos of meds, over the years. Things really changed for me about 4 years ago after having my daughter -- my whole hormonal/chemical makeup really went crazy. I surely had postpartum depression, and, in looking back, probably some postpartum psychosis as well. Since then, I have been extremely sensitive to meds. Since then also, I have been diagnosed with BPII.
>
> All this to say, the ONLY "med" that really gives me true relief is ALCOHOL. I used to be a big partier, and I stopped drinking for about 10 years. Recently, I started having a glass of wine here and there, and it is amazing how much better it makes me feel. With a glass of wine, or a beer, I all of a sudden can make dinner with no problem, change a poopy diaper with no problem, clean with no problem, be patient with my kids with no problem. My anxiety and irritability all but disappear. It is like a miracle drug for me.
>
> But then there is the stigma. And the chance of addiction. And the embarrassment when a neighbor comes over and I have beer on my breath. I am able to keep things to two drinks at the most per day right now. However, I know in my heart this is probably not smart.
>
> SO my big question is ... what is the alternative? Is there any med out there that mirrors alcohol? Valium, maybe? (That's one I've never tried, since one of the symptoms of meds for me is fatigue. My pdocs say that Valium would knock me out.) I do take Klonapin for anxiety, but can only handle it at night because at the dose it is effective, it makes me need to sleep. (even 1/2 tablet -- 0.25 mg. -- knocks me out). Same issue with Xanax.
>
> My current "cocktail" --
> - 450 mg. Lithobid,
> - 5 mg. Prozac (just started this, but have taken it several times in the past and it always "poops out" on me after two months -- we are hoping that with the Lithobid it will last longer),
> - 5 or 10 mg. Dexedrine for energy during the day,
> - 0.25 or 0.5 mg. Klonapin at night for sleep.
>
> Needless to say, I have tried all the SSRIs out there. And the tricyclics. I just stopped Lexapro after a year due to "poop-out" (Lots of poop references in this post! We adopted a baby recently, so I guess I have poop on the brain!)
>
> Looking forward to some insight on this sticky issue!
> Thanks,
> Cindy
>
>
Posted by Michael Bell on July 16, 2004, at 12:45:38
In reply to Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by CindyLou on July 14, 2004, at 14:31:45
Alcohol has effects on many transmitter and hormonal systems. Primarily, it potentiates GABA while at the same time stimulating the mu-opioid receptors and releasing dopamine. This seemingly contradictory action is probably what makes two or three drinks stimulating yet calming at the same time (as far as anxiety is concerned).
Combining a benzo + mu-opioid agonist + stimulant will probably mimic some of the positive effects of alcohol, but alcohol affects so many systems that, even today, there is no drug out there that perfectly replicates it.
Posted by CindyLou on July 16, 2004, at 19:18:01
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by JenStar on July 16, 2004, at 2:18:04
Hi JenStar,
Thank you for your post. It WAS very helpful, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I can see how alcohol mimics the effects of SSRIs... and then backfire when it wears off. When I have my little buzz everything is so much easier and "normal." But when it wears off I feel tired and cranky, and even the next day I feel more irritable.I think I've tried most SSRIs out there, although I haven't kept up-to-date on the newest ones. So far I've tried:
- Prozac (this one works the best, but poops out after two months. I am now trying it for the 5th time, hoping that with Lithobid it may not poop out on me.
- Zoloft (intense brain fog and fatigue)
- Paxil (")
- Celexa (")
- Lexapro (this one worked the best next to Prozac. It helped me out of a tough spot, and acted kind of like a safety net. It stopped working after about a year).
My pdocs didn't want me to try Remeron because they figured it would make me fatigued as well.I've also tried the others ... Effexor, Wellbutrin, Zyprexa, Lamictal, etc. etc.!
Now for the fun part -- adoption! Thank you for your congratulations! I always like talking about it. We adopted a baby girl from Korea. She came home in April at 7 months old. Today is her 10-month birthday. We chose to adopt mainly because of my mood disorder -- I didn't want to get off medication to get pregnant, but didn't want to stay on it while pregnant either (I had a miscarriage while on Zoloft+Wellbutrin). I had two pdocs advise me against getting pregnat again because of the severe postpartum depression and my inability to tolerate most meds. And, I didn't want to risk passing on this gene to another child. I just pray that my 4-year-old doesn't inherit my "thorn."
So, when I really think about it, something good HAS come out of my illness -- my new baby Anna. She is precious and a blessing to our family!
Thanks again Jenstar,
cindy> hi CindyLou,
> congrats on adopting a baby! Awesome, cool, fun. I'd love to hear more about that, if you're up for sharing. If not, I understand. :)
>
> About alcohol...such a tricky subject! I'm sure you've heard/read about the research showing that red wine and even other R-OH's can be good for the heart (although there are other studies showing that alcohol can be a risk factor for breast cancer, liver damage, etc.)
>
> I HAVE read that a small amount of alcohol mimics the effect of SSRI's: increases serotonin activity. Then, as you have MORE alcohol, this reverses and you actually feel worse. I don't know how scientifically this was studied or proven, and I can't remember the article or web site where I read it. You'd probably have to research it, or ask your doc to do so. But this might be the key for you -- trying a different SSRI to find one that works. Did you really try them all?
>
> There was the mention of Xanax: I took Xanax for a while myself, and while I ended up liking the feeling of glassy calm that I got, and needed it short term, it also frightened me. I ended up quitting it after getting thru the worse of my anxiety. Xanax can be addicting, and I read testimonials on the web saying that people often had to keep increasing their dosage (for long-term use) to get the same effects. I think Xanax is best used short-term for anxiety, not for generic coping (doc might disagree...but it seems that SSRI's or MAOI's work for this.)
>
>
> I just re-read my notes and it all seems completely unhelpful. Sorry about that! I guess I don't have any advice, other than this: Drinking alcohol daily for stress reduction is probably not a good idea. But you already knew that, which is why you posted in the first place. (duh...it's getting late...my brain is slowing down!)
>
> Could you afford a maid to help with cooking & cleaning sometimes? Maybe get a baby-sitter so you & the hubby can go out for a relaxing nite on the town? How about exercise? Are you able to do that? For me that's a good stress relief. Do you have a regular 'girls nite out' with friends?
>
> Sorry I can't be more help. Good luck, and let us know what you decide.
>
> JenStar
>
>
>
> > Hello,
> > This is an issue that has been plaguing me, and I wasn't sure where to turn. I used to be a frequent poster here, and I thought of you here at PsychoBabble. I hope someone can shed some light on this ...
> >
> > A short background: I have struggled with chronic depression and anxiety for about 20 years now. I have been on several different medications, and combos of meds, over the years. Things really changed for me about 4 years ago after having my daughter -- my whole hormonal/chemical makeup really went crazy. I surely had postpartum depression, and, in looking back, probably some postpartum psychosis as well. Since then, I have been extremely sensitive to meds. Since then also, I have been diagnosed with BPII.
> >
> > All this to say, the ONLY "med" that really gives me true relief is ALCOHOL. I used to be a big partier, and I stopped drinking for about 10 years. Recently, I started having a glass of wine here and there, and it is amazing how much better it makes me feel. With a glass of wine, or a beer, I all of a sudden can make dinner with no problem, change a poopy diaper with no problem, clean with no problem, be patient with my kids with no problem. My anxiety and irritability all but disappear. It is like a miracle drug for me.
> >
> > But then there is the stigma. And the chance of addiction. And the embarrassment when a neighbor comes over and I have beer on my breath. I am able to keep things to two drinks at the most per day right now. However, I know in my heart this is probably not smart.
> >
> > SO my big question is ... what is the alternative? Is there any med out there that mirrors alcohol? Valium, maybe? (That's one I've never tried, since one of the symptoms of meds for me is fatigue. My pdocs say that Valium would knock me out.) I do take Klonapin for anxiety, but can only handle it at night because at the dose it is effective, it makes me need to sleep. (even 1/2 tablet -- 0.25 mg. -- knocks me out). Same issue with Xanax.
> >
> > My current "cocktail" --
> > - 450 mg. Lithobid,
> > - 5 mg. Prozac (just started this, but have taken it several times in the past and it always "poops out" on me after two months -- we are hoping that with the Lithobid it will last longer),
> > - 5 or 10 mg. Dexedrine for energy during the day,
> > - 0.25 or 0.5 mg. Klonapin at night for sleep.
> >
> > Needless to say, I have tried all the SSRIs out there. And the tricyclics. I just stopped Lexapro after a year due to "poop-out" (Lots of poop references in this post! We adopted a baby recently, so I guess I have poop on the brain!)
> >
> > Looking forward to some insight on this sticky issue!
> > Thanks,
> > Cindy
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by JenStar on July 16, 2004, at 20:45:44
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? » JenStar, posted by CindyLou on July 16, 2004, at 19:18:01
Anna sounds wonderful. Hopefully having her will give you some of the 'good mood' highs that only a cute little baby can bring.
I want to have a baby, but I have some of the same worried that you went through. I'm on Lexapro (so far it's helping!). I've actually started tapering off b/c I want to get pregnant and dont' want to be on meds while doing it. But I have deep worries about my ability to manage stress, anxiety, etc. while pregnant. If I can even get pregnant, that is! I've had a few people tell me that they went off SSRI's during pregnancy and did OK, which is good to hear. But I'm such a hypochondriac...I worry that I'll worry too much!
I've often thought about adoption, esp. a baby from China or Korea. I think it's amazing & cool that you did it! If it turns out I can't have kids of my own, that's what I'd like to do too. It's nice to hear a success story.
Well, take care. I wish I could help with the drug stuff, but all I know is the Lexapro. I wish there was something out there that would work for you! Keep us updated on any changes or developments. Good luck.
JenStar
Posted by Pluto on July 17, 2004, at 5:08:22
In reply to Alcohol - an equivalent?, posted by CindyLou on July 14, 2004, at 14:31:45
Hi,
If you need alcohol in a pill, neither valium nor xanax is the answer as far as I am concerned. Take 25 mg of Stablon (Tianeptine) and feel the way alcohol makes you feel. It is a French antidepressant, but is widely being misused for it's euphoriant effects. 12.5mg will not make that much difference, but if you double the dose, soon you will reach into an intoxicated state. Stablon is safe, it has mood elevating properties, and unlike benzodiazepines, no dependence is reported so far. It will not ruin your health or your family, but may improve your life.
PLS
Posted by CindyLou on July 17, 2004, at 13:39:56
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? » CindyLou, posted by Pluto on July 17, 2004, at 5:08:22
Wow. This is very interesting. Is this Stablon available in the U.S.? If I told my pdoc about it, would he know what I'm talking about? And can you take it with other meds (Prozac, Lithobid?)
Thanks,
cindy> Hi,
>
> If you need alcohol in a pill, neither valium nor xanax is the answer as far as I am concerned. Take 25 mg of Stablon (Tianeptine) and feel the way alcohol makes you feel. It is a French antidepressant, but is widely being misused for it's euphoriant effects. 12.5mg will not make that much difference, but if you double the dose, soon you will reach into an intoxicated state. Stablon is safe, it has mood elevating properties, and unlike benzodiazepines, no dependence is reported so far. It will not ruin your health or your family, but may improve your life.
> PLS
Posted by btnd on July 18, 2004, at 16:30:27
In reply to Re: Alcohol - an equivalent? » CindyLou, posted by Pluto on July 17, 2004, at 5:08:22
> Take 25 mg of Stablon (Tianeptine) and feel the way alcohol makes you feel. It is a French antidepressant, but is widely being misused for it's euphoriant effects. 12.5mg will not make that much difference, but if you double the dose, soon you will reach into an intoxicated state. Stablon is safe, it has mood elevating properties
Tianeptine euphoric? Never heard about Tianeptine being euphoric nor being abused as "mood lifting". Maybe you've mistaken it with another french drug Amineptine.Back to the original question: in my case the med/substance that closely works like alcohol, but is not toxic, is ghb (xyrem).
Posted by CindyLou on July 18, 2004, at 18:52:23
In reply to Re: Alcohol. Tianeptine? GHB » Pluto, posted by btnd on July 18, 2004, at 16:30:27
I hadn't heard of GHB before (I'm old and out of the loop.) I just looked it up on the web -- sounds scary. Would you say it's "safer" than alcohol?
> Back to the original question: in my case the med/substance that closely works like alcohol, but is not toxic, is ghb (xyrem).
>
>
Posted by pablo1 on July 19, 2004, at 0:52:07
In reply to Re: Alcohol. Tianeptine? GHB » btnd, posted by CindyLou on July 18, 2004, at 18:52:23
From what I read ghb is baby-safe in therapeutic doses and miserably useless at addict levels. The thing is you can't get it anywhere.
> I hadn't heard of GHB before (I'm old and out of the loop.) I just looked it up on the web -- sounds scary. Would you say it's "safer" than alcohol?
>
>
> > Back to the original question: in my case the med/substance that closely works like alcohol, but is not toxic, is ghb (xyrem).
> >
> >
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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