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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by k on November 30, 2002, at 10:53:06
Hey all..
It seems that when people take Serotonin reuptake inhibitors, they actually begin to deplete the dopamine in their brains... some doctors say this is the reason people build up tolerances to SSRI's.This seems very serious to me. Dopamine is one of the most important chemicals in the brain. It has a role in Parkinson's disease.. as well as major roles in brain chemistry regulation.
The thing that gets to me is that the withdrawals, and some of the side effects, are heavy duty neural physical (shakes, zaps, etc.). When I went through my withdrawals, the thing that scared me the most was the idea that I may have done serious and long lasting damage to my brain. This connection between SSRIs and dopamine is something I have just discoverd.
Does anyone know more about this? This is damn serious.....
Posted by Joel Maxuel on November 30, 2002, at 12:20:14
In reply to SSRI's and dopamine depletion, posted by k on November 30, 2002, at 10:53:06
This may mean I was right when I said that paxil caused my psychosis, that is, if I never had it all my life anyways. Cause a depletion of dopamine would mean psychosis, would it not? Or is psychosis an overproduction of dopamine?
--
Joel Maxuel
ShamelessPlug(http://www.maxuel.ca);
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2002, at 12:45:54
In reply to Re: SSRI's and dopamine depletion, posted by Joel Maxuel on November 30, 2002, at 12:20:14
Psychosis is generally caused by too much
dopamine acting a the D2 dopamine receptors.
SSRI's in general do not perpetuate psychosis.
They are even prescribed to schitophrics at times
to help improve their symptoms.What we have to understand here is it is not
Dopamine depletion in the sence. It is called
dopamine down regulation and it is not necessary to freak out. People don't just slowly loose all of their dopamine with SSRI's, their brain just starts producing a lesser (but consistant)amount, the brain changes it's receptor densities to adjust.This is not a direct effect of SSRI's, as they have little/no affinty for dopamine receptors, but this is the brain's responce to more serotonin.
You see Serotonin is an inhibitory neurotransmitter, and dopamine is an excitory neurotransmitter. In general as you raise serotonin you lower dopamine and vice versa.
You must understand that this is part of the reason that SSRI's work. Dopamine overproduction and serotonin underproduction leads to bad moods. It leads to irritablity, and the inablity to let things go. Something else to note is that the antidepressant response fits in nicely with the timeframe of the downregulation of dopamine.
These drugs have been used in millions of people and are very safe. If you find yourself overly concerned about what they're doing to your brain is probably because they're not working properly.
As far as brain dammage goes. That's probably the no 1 fear people have about taking these drugs. It has been shown that depressed brains that respond well to an AD drug have a significant increase in their hippocamus volume.
Concern yourself with getting better.Linkadge
Posted by k on November 30, 2002, at 13:08:42
In reply to READ, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2002, at 12:45:54
Concern myself with getting better ????? That is why I am asking these questions. Can you honestly state that you understand the impact SSRI's etc.. on the brain and subsequently the emotions ? If you can say this, then you are Nobel prize material. I have been dealing with PTSD and its attendant problems of depression for 35 years. I am still here.. not to mention a productive and contributing member of society, and actively involved in growth, change, learning and improving my life and that of others. I find your response condesending and insulting. The expert on what is going on in my mind and body is me, and although I have learned through hard experience to ignore discounting and ignorant responses, I find I must voice an objection. Consider it voiced....
Sincerely
k
Posted by k on November 30, 2002, at 13:13:32
In reply to READ, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2002, at 12:45:54
PS.. thalidomide was used by millions.. the history of some of the SSRI's is very short... followup studies are not even close to being complete or conclusive.. I am not saying that all SSRI's are bad.. I firmly believe they are overprescribed and not monitored closely enough.. SSRI's are powerful, and the blanket statement that they are "safe" is disingenous and ignorant of the growing body of evidence. The most infuriating aspect of my use of SSRI's is the dismisal of my concerns and experiences, which mirror those of hundreds of thousands of others.
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2002, at 16:29:41
In reply to Re: READ, posted by k on November 30, 2002, at 13:13:32
For starters, you need to let us know what
your specific symptoms are and what meds you
are on so we can help. If I sounded condescending I am sorry, I am not attempting to understand what you are going through.When I made that statement, I was trying to
say that many people won't take these drugs
because they are afraid of them. I've seen
some that will live in perpetual depression
for fear that these drugs will ruin their brain.What I do know is that prozac and similar drugs
are some of the most studied medications available. Their growing perscription rates
are conscerning, but it is also true that they
are improving the lives of many who were suffering.You must understand that there are benefits
and possible risks with any drug treatment, but in terms of the safety we understand, they are
safe drugs. They are safer than the TCA's the MAO's and Electro Convulsive therapy, all of which were up to recently the only treatments for depression.If you lived 500 years ago with a crippling mental illness, you would probably be addicted to opiates or stimulants or a combination of drugs that would have to be continually increased to be effective.
From all our research, SSRI's in conventional doses, to not appear to dammage the brain.
Ecstacy, cocaine, ampetamine, PCP, LSD, and
other illegal drugs do dammage the brain and
have measurable neurotoxisity. SSRI's appear even safer than Alchohol. It's true that they induce changes in biochemistry, but this is not brain dammage, this is what helps relieve the depression.There are many who believe that the dammage induced by untreated depression - in particular - unrestraied stress hormone cortisol - has a measureable damaging effect on the brain.
It is true that these drugs do cause problems for some people. They certainly don't have a clean record. But if you want to be concerned,
asprin has killed more people than prozac.I am no trying to deminish the cases of people who have had adverse effects. Even the people who have developed TD, recover almost completely after they are discontinued.
You are incharge of your own brain, and nobody is forcing you to take these. All I am saying is that they have helped so many more than they have harmed.
Yes they are powerful drugs, but depression is
a powerful illness.Linkadge
Posted by Joel Maxuel on November 30, 2002, at 19:03:39
In reply to Re: READ, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2002, at 16:29:41
> From all our research, SSRI's in conventional doses, to not appear to dammage the brain.
> Ecstacy, cocaine, ampetamine, PCP, LSD, and
> other illegal drugs do dammage the brain and
> have measurable neurotoxisity.What about mescalin, or the purer peyote?
--
Joel Maxuel
ShamelessPlug(http://www.maxuel.ca);
Posted by bluedog on November 30, 2002, at 21:39:28
In reply to Re: READ, posted by k on November 30, 2002, at 13:08:42
> I find your response condesending and insulting. The expert on what is going on in my mind and body is me, and although I have learned through hard experience to ignore discounting and ignorant responses, I find I must voice an objection. Consider it voiced....
k. You have misunderstood linkages intentions. linkadge was genuinely trying to help you and was giving you an alternative perspective to the worries that all of us have about the ssri's. I have never found any of linkadges posts to be either condescending or insulting. Maybe the post was confronting but that is merely a consequence that arises when there are different views on a particular topic and this can only lead to a good debate with a healthy exchange of ideas!!!!I agree with what linkadge has said, but that is not to discount the very real concerns that you have about the ssri's.
This topic has been discussed before. For example I would recommend you read this thread - see http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021108/msgs/127552.html.
Also you need to weigh up the unknown risks of the ssri's against the very real damage that untreated anxiety or depression can cause in your brain (and in your entire system for that matter). I would also highly recommend that you read the threads above called
1. Is depression damaging my brain? see http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021122/msgs/129341.html and
2. Anxiety causes brain damage???? see http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021122/msgs/129225.html
I hope this helps you to some degree and maybe even can help to alleviate some of your concerns. I personally had EXACTLY the same concerns that you are currently expressing but the more time I have spent learning about the issues involved (and there really are LOTS of VERY complex issues here including medical, scientific, political and emotional issues!!) the more I have been able to put my ssri treatment into perspective. I'm not sure if you are new to psychobabble or not but if you are I would encourage you to "hang around" and slowly but surely your knowledge on the issues will improve.best wishes
bluedog
Posted by linkadge on December 1, 2002, at 10:59:05
In reply to What about mecsalin? » linkadge, posted by Joel Maxuel on November 30, 2002, at 19:03:39
I'm not sure about the specifics of mescalin,
if consumed in whole form from the peyote cactus,
it is probably much safer than the chemical derivitive. I do know it is supposed to be safer than LSD (ie fewer cases of persistant psychosis). It is also less stimulating than LSD, - it has less effects on norepinephrine.In general, if a drug is taken in its original form it tends to be much safer than its synthesized counterpart. Chewing the leaves of the coca plant are much safer than free-basing crack.
Linkadge
Posted by Tabitha on December 1, 2002, at 16:26:12
In reply to Re: READ, posted by k on November 30, 2002, at 13:08:42
> ...I find your response condesending and insulting.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put-down. Here's a link to the civility guidelines for the site
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilTabitha (filling in for Dr Bob)
P.S. Responses to this message should be directed to Psycho-Babble Administration
Posted by Tabitha on December 1, 2002, at 16:27:31
In reply to Re: READ, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2002, at 16:29:41
Posted by DavidSmith on December 2, 2002, at 0:27:39
In reply to Re: READ, posted by k on November 30, 2002, at 13:08:42
I know just what you are talking about K.
Thanks for your honesty.
Posted by k on December 2, 2002, at 21:08:35
In reply to SSRI brain damage vs Depression brain damage » k, posted by bluedog on November 30, 2002, at 21:39:28
Bluedog says "I'm not sure if you are new to psychobabble or not but if you are I would encourage you to "hang around" and slowly but surely your knowledge on the issues will improve."
My response: No offense, and in the interest of "civility", if I wanted the orthodox party line on this stuff, I would go to Pfizer's or SmithKline's sites: at least those guys know how to spell.
I won't be back.
Sincerely
K
Posted by bluedog on December 2, 2002, at 22:27:37
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage vs Depression brain damage, posted by k on December 2, 2002, at 21:08:35
> Bluedog says "I'm not sure if you are new to psychobabble or not but if you are I would encourage you to "hang around" and slowly but surely your knowledge on the issues will improve."
>
> My response: No offense, and in the interest of "civility", if I wanted the orthodox party line on this stuff, I would go to Pfizer's or SmithKline's sites: at least those guys know how to spell.
> I won't be back.
> Sincerely
> K
If you stay around this community long enough you will find that there are many different views and opinions expressed on a wide variety of topics. You will find that on the whole the views that are expressed here are anything but along "the orthodox party lines", though that is not to say that such views are not expressed from time to time :).I still believe that you should stay around for while before discounting or dimissing this site. I know that if you are new to the site and then you almost immediately get a post from the site administrator asking you to be "civil" that it can seem like a "kick in the teeth". This can seem very dismissive of your views and concerns and has probably annoyed you or even upset you when you least need it (especially if you are already suffering from something like depression).
All I can say is that there are many people on this site that have had similar warnings from the site administrator and that these people remain as valuable contributors to this site. Nobody is going to hold it against you. I personally find it very valuable to this site and actually welcome contributors with opposing or confronting views on a topic as this provides a very necessary balancing factor to the site.
However I can also understand that you may have already decided that this site is not for you and if you decide to leave I can only wish you well and hope that you can find the answers you are looking for elsewhere, though I am completely convinced that you will go a long way to finding some answers if you stay :).
best wishes
bluedog
By the way your spelling comment has made me a bit paranoid and I have checked this post several time to make sure that there are no spelling errors. I don't think I've made any but you never know :)
Posted by BekkaH on December 2, 2002, at 22:34:11
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage vs Depression brain damage, posted by k on December 2, 2002, at 21:08:35
Hi K,
Rather than pharmaceutical company web sites, I suggest you try sites like Internet Mental Health, www.biopsychiatry.com and Medline searches. The pharmaceutical companies are interested in advertising their products and selling their products. They are not interested in objectivity, honesty or your health.
Bekka
Posted by bluedog on December 2, 2002, at 23:42:27
In reply to Response to poster named k, posted by BekkaH on December 2, 2002, at 22:34:11
Bekka
Other than Medline I had not seen the other sites before. They are great. I particularly like the very first statement in the Internet Mental Health site which states "Knowledge must be shared".
This is exactly the opposite philosophy to the drug companies that believe "knowledge must be hoarded and patented and then sold bit by bit for enormous profit". This corporate philosophy contributes to a very unhealthy society.
Thanks again
bluedog
Posted by Tabitha on December 3, 2002, at 0:13:52
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage vs Depression brain damage, posted by k on December 2, 2002, at 21:08:35
> Bluedog says "I'm not sure if you are new to psychobabble or not but if you are I would encourage you to "hang around" and slowly but surely your knowledge on the issues will improve."
>
> My response: No offense, and in the interest of "civility", if I wanted the orthodox party line on this stuff, I would go to Pfizer's or SmithKline's sites: at least those guys know how to spell.Sorry k, but I warned you before, so now I'm going to have to block you from posting for a week.
Tabitha (filling in for Dr Bob)
P.S. Please send replies to this message to Psych-Babble Administration.
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