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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DINGBAT on January 10, 2002, at 4:26:07
Has anyone out in cyberspace tried SAMe or TMG (a SAMe precursor that is much more stable and far less expensive)for depression?
Posted by CalvaryHill on January 10, 2002, at 4:34:34
In reply to Anyone tried SAMe or TMG (with success)?, posted by DINGBAT on January 10, 2002, at 4:26:07
I found that its definitely too expensive for long-term use unless you're rich or something. But it definitely has enough studies to back its use, dating back to the 1950s. Saint John's Wort is a better deal, IMHO. What's TMG?
> Has anyone out in cyberspace tried SAMe or TMG (a SAMe precursor that is much more stable and far less expensive)for depression?
Posted by Bill L on January 10, 2002, at 7:06:50
In reply to Anyone tried SAMe or TMG (with success)?, posted by DINGBAT on January 10, 2002, at 4:26:07
I tried it and it worked but not enough for me to use it by itself. I took up to 800 mg. For major depression, people need 1200 to 1600 mg. That dose costs about $4.50 per day when you buy it at a wholesale club like BJ's or Costsco. It cost a lot more than that at many drug stores. Instead of upping the dose, I added Celexa and eventually cut out the SAM-e. I am doing better on Celexa than I did on 800 mg SAM-e. But I may have done better on SAM-e if I had increased to 1600 mg. I never tried TMG.
> Has anyone out in cyberspace tried SAMe or TMG (a SAMe precursor that is much more stable and far less expensive)for depression?
Posted by mr.scott on January 10, 2002, at 12:56:38
In reply to Anyone tried SAMe or TMG (with success)?, posted by DINGBAT on January 10, 2002, at 4:26:07
Yes for a week or two (short)... My appetite was insatiable, but otherwise I noticed nothing. I took 6-800mg daily.
Scott
Posted by JGalt on January 10, 2002, at 17:25:00
In reply to Re: Anyone tried SAMe or TMG (with success)? » DINGBAT, posted by mr.scott on January 10, 2002, at 12:56:38
I took up to 3g's a day (TMG), did 1 gram a day for quite a while...noticed little if anything. This one seemed to be a complete dud for me. On the other hand, St. John's Wort was also a 100% dud for me, and many other ppl use it successfully so obviously your mileage may vary.
JGalt
Posted by DINGBAT on January 11, 2002, at 3:42:04
In reply to Re: Anyone tried SAMe or TMG (with success)?, posted by JGalt on January 10, 2002, at 17:25:00
Has anyone had SIGNIFICANT results with any of the "alternative" supplements/herbs that are recommended for depression? Examples include: St John's Wort (aka SJW, Hypericum), Kava, 5HTP, Tryptophan, DLPA, Sceletium, SAMe, TMG, Vit B6, et al. I've personally had poor results with most of these although I do find supplementation with B Complex vitamins, Vit C and minerals generally helpful. What say you ....
Posted by mr.scott on January 11, 2002, at 10:20:49
In reply to Do ANY of the alternative supplements/herbs work, posted by DINGBAT on January 11, 2002, at 3:42:04
I'm trying fish oil (EPA) now.. I'd like to try 5htp next.. I'll be sure to let everyone know if I have any success.
scott
Posted by BarbaraCat on January 12, 2002, at 18:44:09
In reply to Re: Do ANY of the alternative supplements/herbs work » DINGBAT, posted by mr.scott on January 11, 2002, at 10:20:49
I've been on a big nutritional support regimen and I think it's a big part of getting and staying well. One thing that I think makes a big differece is myo-inositol. There are numerous studies that attest to it's antidepressant activity, but you have to take alot, around 12 grams a day. It works on the secondary messenger system, or downline from the synaptic region. There are a few different inositols for different health matters, but the myo form is for depression. A good one is put out by by Jarrow Formulations and it's a powder and can be found at some web sites for around $12 a bottle.
Another important thing is to get the digestive system healthy, else vitamins and other nutrients don't get assimilated. I really recommend finding a good naturopath and working with him/her as an adjunct to our chmemical pdocs.
> I'm trying fish oil (EPA) now.. I'd like to try 5htp next.. I'll be sure to let everyone know if I have any success.
>
> scott
Posted by petey on January 13, 2002, at 6:41:00
In reply to Re: Do ANY of the alternative supplements/herbs work » DINGBAT, posted by mr.scott on January 11, 2002, at 10:20:49
> I'm trying fish oil (EPA) now.. I'd like to try 5htp next.. I'll be sure to let everyone know if I have any success.
>
> scottScott,
I just wanted to let you know I've been taking 5htp for about 6 weeks now and I am doing very well. Let us know how the fish oil does! Thanks! Good luck!
Petey
Posted by DINGBAT on January 13, 2002, at 9:00:13
In reply to Re: Do ANY of the alternative supplements/herbs work, posted by petey on January 13, 2002, at 6:41:00
> > I'm trying fish oil (EPA) now.. I'd like to try 5htp next.. I'll be sure to let everyone know if I have any success.
> >
> > scott
>
>
>
> Scott,
> I just wanted to let you know I've been taking 5htp for about 6 weeks now and I am doing very well. Let us know how the fish oil does! Thanks! Good luck!
> PeteyPlease can you give more details about "fish oil" and 5HTP doses and when you started noticing a difference in your symptoms? What had you tried before? Thanks!
Dingbat
Posted by petey on January 13, 2002, at 10:37:39
In reply to Re: Do ANY of the alternative supplements/herbs work, posted by DINGBAT on January 13, 2002, at 9:00:13
> > > I'm trying fish oil (EPA) now.. I'd like to try 5htp next.. I'll be sure to let everyone know if I have any success.
> > >
> > > scott
> >
> >
> >
> > Scott,
> > I just wanted to let you know I've been taking 5htp for about 6 weeks now and I am doing very well. Let us know how the fish oil does! Thanks! Good luck!
> > Petey
>
> Please can you give more details about "fish oil" and 5HTP doses and when you started noticing a difference in your symptoms? What had you tried before? Thanks!
> DingbatHi Dingbat,
Sure, I take 50mgs. of 5htp in the morning and 100mgs. before I go to bed. It took about 3 weeks for it to really kick in. I now sleep 7-8 hours,where as before I started taking it, I was only sleeping between 3-4 hours. I only wake up maybe once now, where as before I would wake 6-7 times in that 3-4 hours! My anxiety has dropped tremendously since taking it. The depression seems to be lifting, but I'm thinking of upping my dose to see if I could get better results with the depression. For awhile, I was taking Sam-e with the 5htp and got better results, but I just cannot afford it. It is SO terribly expensive. I have noticed on the days I make myself eat a good breakfast, that I feel better and less moody! Oh, if you decide to try 5htp, make sure you take a good b-complex supplement. My doctor said it works better! Let me know if you have any other questions! Take care and God bless!
Petey
Posted by Lorraine on January 13, 2002, at 12:06:52
In reply to Anyone tried SAMe or TMG (with success)?, posted by DINGBAT on January 10, 2002, at 4:26:07
Tried SamE for about 6 months--it did not help, kept increasing the dose, still did not help. Also tried 5HTP, made me more depressed. Tried neurotransmitter precursor loading, made me more depressed. My amino acids levels for all of the important neurotransmitters test low despite the fact that I eat a fair amount of protein. And when I take them I feel more depressed. It is a puzzle that I have not solved. Also now trying St Johns Wort together with ritalin xr and klonopin. Good luck with your search. Keep us posted.Lorraine
> Has anyone out in cyberspace tried SAMe or TMG (a SAMe precursor that is much more stable and far less expensive)for depression?
Posted by Cassidy on February 28, 2002, at 18:22:03
In reply to Re: Do ANY of the alternative supplements/herbs work, posted by petey on January 13, 2002, at 10:37:39
I can report on SAM-e's effects in my situation. I had been on various SSRIs and a tri-cyclic over a number of years; going off resulted in serious symptoms, but each either pooped out or had problem side effects.
I started SAM-e 2 1/2 years ago and have generally used 1200-1400mg to control depression (yes, it's a lot of money, but gave me my life back). It has worked as well or better than any of the other ADs I used, and it has essentially no side effects for me (it does affect bowel habits). Still, the depression was not entirely gone (low energy, rather dysthymic, etc.).
The biggest change since starting SAMe was adding an estradiol patch about 10 months ago (body's form of estrogen). (Blood work through the years had not shown a need for estrogen replacement until last year, but based on the following experience, I no longer trust the blood level as a reliable indicator.) As soon as the estradiol kicked in, I found that I could reduce the amount of SAMe, and I started feeling better. By the time estradiol was gradually increased to .1mg (still MUCH less than standard Premarin dose) I found that I felt better than at any time in the last decade (!) and on only 300mg of SAM-e.
I have been feeling NORMAL again with this combination (.1mg estradiol, 300mg SAMe) for about 3 months now,and am SO grateful. I wanted to share this experience with other women who might benefit from it.
Posted by BarbaraCat on February 28, 2002, at 20:09:03
In reply to Re: Do ANY of the alternative supplements/herbs wo, posted by Cassidy on February 28, 2002, at 18:22:03
I too started on the Estraderm (estradiol) patch and was amazed at how much better I've been steadily feeling. I had stopped taking estrogen and progesterone because my insurance ran out and within 5 months I was like a raving banshee. I'm post menopausal, but stopping like I did kicked in full blown menopausal crazies like I'd never had before (having been on replacement for 3 years). I hope you're also taking progesterone. I'm on prometrium which is a natural form and like it alot. I also have to caution women going the premarin/provera route. These are **not** natural to a women's body and are known to exacerbate depression. BTW, I'm taking 400 mg of SAM-e and have also found it helpful. - Barbara
> I can report on SAM-e's effects in my situation. I had been on various SSRIs and a tri-cyclic over a number of years; going off resulted in serious symptoms, but each either pooped out or had problem side effects.
>
> I started SAM-e 2 1/2 years ago and have generally used 1200-1400mg to control depression (yes, it's a lot of money, but gave me my life back). It has worked as well or better than any of the other ADs I used, and it has essentially no side effects for me (it does affect bowel habits). Still, the depression was not entirely gone (low energy, rather dysthymic, etc.).
>
> The biggest change since starting SAMe was adding an estradiol patch about 10 months ago (body's form of estrogen). (Blood work through the years had not shown a need for estrogen replacement until last year, but based on the following experience, I no longer trust the blood level as a reliable indicator.) As soon as the estradiol kicked in, I found that I could reduce the amount of SAMe, and I started feeling better. By the time estradiol was gradually increased to .1mg (still MUCH less than standard Premarin dose) I found that I felt better than at any time in the last decade (!) and on only 300mg of SAM-e.
>
> I have been feeling NORMAL again with this combination (.1mg estradiol, 300mg SAMe) for about 3 months now,and am SO grateful. I wanted to share this experience with other women who might benefit from it.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 2, 2002, at 7:58:29
In reply to Re: Do ANY of the alternative supplements/herbs wo, posted by Cassidy on February 28, 2002, at 18:22:03
Cassidy,
I'm happy to hear of your success. Are you are taking plenty of B-6, B-12, and folate with the SAM-e to prevent the build up of homocysteine? Also bear in mind that most humans do not absorb B-12 efficiently when taken orally. Therefore, it is very important to take a sublingual (under tounge) tablet (or get B-12 injections). Further, buy the bioactive form of B-12 (Methylcobalamin). Here is an article that says it better than I can:
Supercharged SAM-e: B Vitamins, Folate Increase the Supplement’s Effectiveness
by ImmuneSupport.com Staff12-01-1999 - Homocysteine is a sulfur-containing amino acid involved in several important methyl and sulfur transfer reactions, and is actually beneficial in small amounts. When homocysteine levels begin to rise in the body, excessive accumulation of homocysteine in the body fluid compartments is normally prevented by degradation through two enzymatic reactions called transsulfuration and remethylation. These two processes have to be functioning for homocysteine to be kept in control and for SAM-e to function in the body. Importantly, these same enzyme reactions cannot occur without proper levels of folate, vitamin B 6 (pyridoxal 5- phosphate), and vitamin B12 (cobalamin). If you take SAM-e to promote better health (lighter mood, comfortable joints and a detoxed liver), you also need adequate levels of B vitamins and folic acid to help the SAM-e do its job.
When the body has proper levels of folic acid, Vitamins B6 and B12, the enzymatic break-down of homocysteine occurs either through remethylation, which converts it into methionine, the SAM-e building block; or through transsulfuration, which turns it into glutathione, a powerful antioxidant.
But when those processes become sluggish, the homocysteine levels in the body begin to rise. Large homocysteine levels left unchecked in the body, become an invitation to disease, including heart attack, stroke, cancer, birth defects, depression and perhaps CFS and FM.
A published Swedish study showed results of which demonstrate consistently high homocysteine levels and low concentrations of vitamin B12 in the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) of patients meeting established clinical criteria for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia.
Those taking SAM-e should be aware that the healthy benefits they experience are not due to SAM-e alone. SAM-e may be the “team leader” however, folic acid, vitamin B6 and vitamin B12 are crucial members of the team that contribute to its success. It is only by incorporating the entire team that one can achieve the victory of better health and well-being.
Source:
Evarts, Jeremy Lucius. “New Study Links Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome to Low Vitamin B12 and High Homocysteine in Cerebrospinal Fluid.” Healthwatch, August 1998.
Cowley, Geoffrey and Underwood, Anne. "What is SAMe?" Newsweek, July 5, 1999.
Brown, Richard, M.D., Bottigileri, Teodoro, Ph.D., Colman, Carol. Stop Depression Now. New York, 1999.
http://www.arthritissupport.com/track/goto/rtgoto30l.cfm
-- Ron
----------------------------------------------> I can report on SAM-e's effects in my situation. I had been on various SSRIs and a tri-cyclic over a number of years; going off resulted in serious symptoms, but each either pooped out or had problem side effects.
>
> I started SAM-e 2 1/2 years ago and have generally used 1200-1400mg to control depression (yes, it's a lot of money, but gave me my life back). It has worked as well or better than any of the other ADs I used, and it has essentially no side effects for me (it does affect bowel habits). Still, the depression was not entirely gone (low energy, rather dysthymic, etc.).
>
> The biggest change since starting SAMe was adding an estradiol patch about 10 months ago (body's form of estrogen). (Blood work through the years had not shown a need for estrogen replacement until last year, but based on the following experience, I no longer trust the blood level as a reliable indicator.) As soon as the estradiol kicked in, I found that I could reduce the amount of SAMe, and I started feeling better. By the time estradiol was gradually increased to .1mg (still MUCH less than standard Premarin dose) I found that I felt better than at any time in the last decade (!) and on only 300mg of SAM-e.
>
> I have been feeling NORMAL again with this combination (.1mg estradiol, 300mg SAMe) for about 3 months now,and am SO grateful. I wanted to share this experience with other women who might benefit from it.
Posted by Cassidy on March 2, 2002, at 12:15:30
In reply to Take Sufficient B-6, B-12, Folic Acid with SAM-e » Cassidy, posted by Ron Hill on March 2, 2002, at 7:58:29
Thanks for the info. I do take the supplements and have my second annual homocystiene blood test planned for next month. Was unaware of B12 absorbtion issues but will consider sublingual if blood work shows a problem.
Posted by BarbaraCat on March 2, 2002, at 13:27:57
In reply to Take Sufficient B-6, B-12, Folic Acid with SAM-e » Cassidy, posted by Ron Hill on March 2, 2002, at 7:58:29
Ron,
I take many B complex vitamins (50 mg twice a day) as well as daily shots of B12 (cyanocobalamin). I've heard that the Methylcobalamin form is better, but haven't yet found it in injectable form and my pharmacist hasn't heard of such. Know anything about it? - Barbara
Posted by Ron Hill on March 3, 2002, at 11:04:02
In reply to Re: Take Sufficient B-6, B-12, Folic Acid with SAM-e » Ron Hill, posted by BarbaraCat on March 2, 2002, at 13:27:57
Barbara,
I know nothing about the injectable form. Sorry to be of no help on this one.
-- Ron
--------------------------> Ron,
> I take many B complex vitamins (50 mg twice a day) as well as daily shots of B12 (cyanocobalamin). I've heard that the Methylcobalamin form is better, but haven't yet found it in injectable form and my pharmacist hasn't heard of such. Know anything about it? - Barbara
This is the end of the thread.
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