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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Mr.Scott on October 29, 2001, at 15:01:26
In your opinions is it likely that this diagnosis is accurate even if no real sleep problems exist or have ever existed?
Scott
Posted by susan C on October 29, 2001, at 16:38:16
In reply to Question for Bipolar 2's, posted by Mr.Scott on October 29, 2001, at 15:01:26
Welllllllllllll, Let's see...I think my problems with sleep started with the birth of my first child...I think I have had the symptoms that led to 'chronic clinical depression' dx then 'bipolar two' dx long before i was dx'd. Things 'got worse with age' So, I would say, that my answer to your question is: yes.
It is also my understanding the dx of bipolar two, depression, etc, is 'here are ten major symptoms, if you hit more than six you probably, might be, could be, are (insert confusing sounding medical term) ta ta... > if you have some of the symptoms on this list AND this or that, then you are dx'd as THIS...
Now, I am curious, why are you asking this question?
a mouse on controlled substance for sleep
susan C>
> In your opinions is it likely that this diagnosis is accurate even if no real sleep problems exist or have ever existed?
>
> Scott
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 29, 2001, at 17:28:09
In reply to Question for Bipolar 2's, posted by Mr.Scott on October 29, 2001, at 15:01:26
Mr. Scott:
It drives me crazy everytime my pdoc asks me how my sleep is. I have had what are called hypomanic and manic episodes for at least a dozen years and, no, I don't always stay up for five days in a row.
"How's your sleep?" As if that is the final determination? How about, "Are your thoughts going so fast all you can do is watch them go by?" Or, "Been talking with that spirit who shows up only during these 'episodes' lately?"
I've had trouble sleeping when depressed. I've stayed up all night, staring at the T.V., no idea what's on.
There is a certain energy that comes with mania, but the time constraints are ludricrous, (what the heck are they based on?), and sleep is only one factor.
I do think Bipolars in general are more sensitive to sleep, but that's a different issue.
Ah, thanks for letting me get that off my chest! I, too, would like to know why you ask.
- Ms. KK
Posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 17:49:28
In reply to Re: Question for Bipolar 2's » Mr.Scott, posted by Krazy Kat on October 29, 2001, at 17:28:09
i was recently dx'd BPII...
going to bed really frightens me, i'm afraid that i'll lie there with insomnia (as i did when i first became actively suicidal 5 years ago or so)...so for the past few years i've gone to sleep sober very few times. in the past, it was pills, pot, and opium. now it's alcohol. for some reason i am terrified to crawl into bed sober.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 29, 2001, at 18:00:40
In reply to Re: Question for Bipolar 2's, posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 17:49:28
Hi, Sar.
I have this problem. Actually, I have a love/hate relationship with the night in general. As a teenager, I snuck out constantly and just roamed the streets at night. It's so beautiful in Colorado right after it snows at night - it's almost as bright as daylight, but there's an heavenly reddish-gold glow to the sky.
If I hadn't been married so young, 21, I imagine I would have continued that.
So, I still get restless at night, as certainly seems to be the case with those of us with this BP II diagnosis, or whatever the hell is wrong with us. And I, too, use and have used alcohol to get to sleep. Sleeping pills only work one night in a row for me.
I don't know the answer. Seems like we should be happy to be up at night, writing poetry or something. Instead it becomes suffocating, and the threat of death really does set in.
- K.
Posted by Greg on October 29, 2001, at 18:02:28
In reply to Question for Bipolar 2's, posted by Mr.Scott on October 29, 2001, at 15:01:26
>
>
> In your opinions is it likely that this diagnosis is accurate even if no real sleep problems exist or have ever existed?
>
> ScottI developed insomnia two years before being dx'd BP II, but have a few friends who are dx'd with it who have no significant sleep probs. I guess my answer is I don't know...riding the fence as usual.
Greg
Posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 19:41:33
In reply to Re: Question for Bipolar 2's » sar, posted by Krazy Kat on October 29, 2001, at 18:00:40
> Hi, Sar.
>
> I have this problem. Actually, I have a love/hate relationship with the night in general. As a teenager, I snuck out constantly and just roamed the streets at night.me too. it's an important part of my past...and i stil walk at night sometimes, it just doesn't carry they allure of "sneaking out"... :)
> If I hadn't been married so young, 21, I imagine I would have continued that.
the last time i "snuck out," so to speak, about 2 weeks ago, i swigged vodka way into the A.M. and came home banging on the door. when my mother opened it, she found me standing there hair askew carrying a large hammer and a small crowbar. i have *no idea* how i obtained those items.i would imagine that marriage is somewhat stabilising! :)
> So, I still get restless at night, as certainly seems to be the case with those of us with this BP II diagnosis, or whatever the hell is wrong with us. And I, too, use and have used alcohol to get to sleep. Sleeping pills only work one night in a row for me.
well, i once read that introverts get their energy at night and extroverts, during the day. i'm definitely introverted and from grade 9 or so haven't been able to make myself start homework 'til 'round midnight on average.> I don't know the answer. Seems like we should be happy to be up at night, writing poetry or something. Instead it becomes suffocating, and the threat of death really does set in.
it does for me because it is dark and quiet...in addition, i lost all of my favorite books and cd's in a housefire, and i've got no TV in my room. i did used to go to bed sober, but all i could do was lay there thinking i wanted to die. during the day that's bad enough...but in the dark, completely alone? it's just too frightening.
Posted by wendy b. on October 30, 2001, at 8:45:32
In reply to Question for Bipolar 2's, posted by Mr.Scott on October 29, 2001, at 15:01:26
>
>
> In your opinions is it likely that this diagnosis is accurate even if no real sleep problems exist or have ever existed?
>
> Scott
Hi Scott,I would say, clinically, that you don't necessarily *have* to have problems sleeping in order to have the BPII dx. Like Susan says, if you have a load of the other symptoms of BPII, you could still be diagnosed as BPII. However, it fits the profile of more BPII people to have the kinds of sleep problems Krazy Kat and Sar are describing.
I also love to wander at night, but right, Kelly, getting married and being a mom changed all that. It also occurs to me from time to time, whenever I CAN go out a-nightwandering, that it's dangerous. I was personally concerned this past summer about little skunkies appearing in the road I was walking on, since they like to come out at night when it's warm. I think I expressed to Willow, who also seems to walk at night, that I would like to have a puppy like hers to take with me. Skunks and racoons can be rabid, and are very prevalent around here. Sar & Kelly, other worries are, like, getting mugged and other bad stuff. Especially if you're, umm, drinking (?)
Scott, what are your sleep patterns like? Sometimes we're having a 'problem' with sleep in the clinical sense (as in: what your doctor would consider a problem), when, to us, it's no concern at all. Like - we stay up til 2 or 3 am, but then sleep til 10 am. We depressives think this pattern is fine, but it's considered somewhat abnormal, according to most doctors. Fear of being alone at night is something else.
I'd say insomnia (inability to fall or remain asleep) or hypersomnia (sleeping a lot during the day and/or night or some combination) are actual "problems," if you know what I mean, where you're not getting enough REM sleep, or your circadian (sp??) rhythms are off.
Does this make any sense? In other words, what the doc would call a "problem with sleep" might not appear to us to be a, quote, "problem." So let us know what's up with you, we're all curious...
best,
Wendy
ps: the dx of BPII is hard to take, I know. If you want to talk about it on PSB, that would be cool.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 10:30:49
In reply to Re: Question for Bipolar 2's » Mr.Scott, posted by wendy b. on October 30, 2001, at 8:45:32
It's O.K., Mom, I don't wander anymore. Hubby would have a fit. ;)
Seriously, don't know how I managed to stay safe all those years. Last wandering episode was from midtown Manhattan to downtown Manhattan early morning hours. It was fantastic.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 14:17:31
In reply to Re: Question for Bipolar 2's » Krazy Kat , posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 19:41:33
Posted by susan C on October 30, 2001, at 14:55:36
In reply to Re: Question for Bipolar 2's » wendy b., posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 10:30:49
> It's O.K., Mom, I don't wander anymore. Hubby would have a fit. ;)
>
> Seriously, don't know how I managed to stay safe all those years. Last wandering episode was from midtown Manhattan to downtown Manhattan early morning hours. It was fantastic.now, if you had been a guy and it was around the 1600's, you would have been an native american or an explorer for europe...or, today, a sanitary engineer...
I am very curious to know, after Mila brought it up, how different meds affect effect (whatever) sleeep rythmns and what the perceived differences are between REM sleep and on REM...are REM vivid realistic dreams, are the remembered differently in different people? Is it clinically significant if your dreaming changes?
Is this the same topic?
For example (I may be getting myself confused here)
I have been dx bipolar two, I had trouble getting to sleep and staying asleep. I take Ambien. There is a period of 5 hours or so, where i am OUT. the last 3 hours are often tossing a turning. I feel I remember most of my dreams from that time and just before I wake up 11 hours after I take Ambien.
a mouse rubbing sleep from her eyes
susan C
Posted by sar on October 30, 2001, at 15:10:07
In reply to Re: Question for Bipolar 2's » Krazy Kat , posted by susan C on October 30, 2001, at 14:55:36
Susan,
i noticed that when i started neurontin, and especially when i doubled it, i started dreaming very deeply and vividly, tapping into emotions like pure joy that i don't normally feel during waking hours...dreams of blue bursting feelings of love on a computer screen, of being given a diamond ring from someone as a symbol of true love and friendship...a lot of happy laughter...
months ago, before i was on any meds, my dreams were *extremely* depressing--drowning, being lost, being trapped in my car, being abandoned, attacked--and the colors were generally drab. i would wake up feeling exhausted.
Posted by Mr.Scott on October 30, 2001, at 17:10:08
In reply to Re: Question for Bipolar 2's » Mr.Scott, posted by susan C on October 29, 2001, at 16:38:16
I'm nowbeing told I'm bp 2... But I've never had any clear mania or sleep problems described in the literature...
Maybe acted stupid or emotional or irrational a couple of times, but never felt like I was anything special...
Scott
Posted by Mr.Scott on October 30, 2001, at 17:14:19
In reply to Re: Question for Bipolar 2's » Mr.Scott, posted by wendy b. on October 30, 2001, at 8:45:32
Hi,
My sleeping pattern tends to be too much! Always wake up tired, feel cloudy during the day.. But when I see a bed I have no problem getting in and crashing.. It's the waking up part I don't do so well..
Scott
Posted by Mr.Scott on October 30, 2001, at 17:30:03
In reply to Question for Bipolar 2's, posted by Mr.Scott on October 29, 2001, at 15:01:26
I'm depressed most always, but can always crack a smile, even when I'm thinking about offing myself. Always anxious unless I take a benzo. Sensitive to critiscism, dislike/disrespect most authority. Can't tolerate SSRI's or other new AD's (All kinds of problems here). Don't want to take Depakote because of the side effects I hear it causes. Tend to get angry easily (eg. Arguing over politics or something with a friend), but only when I feel threatened. Can enjoy life, but only with a push. Past history of profound substance abuse, acting out as child, hated school except the social value of it which I loved...Now I am almost antisocial! "Precocious" behavior in childhood. Unfulfilled dreams... Recent breakup of 5 year relationship.
Have tried ALL AD's on market, always some kind of side effect. Stayed on Prozac, Zoloft and Sinequan longest, but don't want the side effects and minimal efficacy anymore.
Drink a lot of coffee, sleep like a baby, Wake up like a bear.Anyways I got Dx'd as BP2 recently instead of the long standing Dx of Depression and anxiety. But Depakote is a hard pill to swallow..literally.. And I don't know that I'm a full blown BP.
I think I have "Dyslimbia" or something!!
Sorry for the broken sentences.. I'm at work.Scott
Posted by susan C on October 30, 2001, at 18:53:55
In reply to Me, posted by Mr.Scott on October 30, 2001, at 17:30:03
> I'm depressed most always, but can always crack a smile, even when I'm thinking about offing myself. Always anxious unless I take a benzo. Sensitive to critiscism, dislike/disrespect most authority. Can't tolerate SSRI's or other new AD's (All kinds of problems here). Don't want to take Depakote because of the side effects I hear it causes. Tend to get angry easily (eg. Arguing over politics or something with a friend), but only when I feel threatened. Can enjoy life, but only with a push. Past history of profound substance abuse, acting out as child, hated school except the social value of it which I loved...Now I am almost antisocial! "Precocious" behavior in childhood. Unfulfilled dreams... Recent breakup of 5 year relationship.
> Have tried ALL AD's on market, always some kind of side effect. Stayed on Prozac, Zoloft and Sinequan longest, but don't want the side effects and minimal efficacy anymore.
> Drink a lot of coffee, sleep like a baby, Wake up like a bear.
>
> Anyways I got Dx'd as BP2 recently instead of the long standing Dx of Depression and anxiety. But Depakote is a hard pill to swallow..literally.. And I don't know that I'm a full blown BP.
>
> I think I have "Dyslimbia" or something!!
> Sorry for the broken sentences.. I'm at work.
>
> ScottHi, You, limbo, limbo, remember that dance with the stick...
as usual, everybody is different. Just imagine if you were a pdoc and your practice consisted of all of us here!?! oh oh, that thought just hit me, i am still staggering.
I take Depakote. side effects sound worse than i thought they sounded like. the benefit has been better than the side effects and for once, something worked. For a long time I was not dx as bipolar, it was only after not responding to a whole series of meds, or classes of meds, that this dx was made. My thought was, after I read your post, was, gosh, maybe, like my first pdoc, his has gotten stumped and depakote is the next class of med (Anti Convulsant) to try. (it is said to be the 'gold standard'. Another choice is ECT...but I don't want to go there...and then there was a third one for me, oh, right, try estrogen...ha ha ha...may be YOU should try estrogen, or testosterone, or thyroid, or or or.
mouse dialing for dollars
susan C
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 21:00:06
In reply to Re: Question for Bipolar 2's » Krazy Kat , posted by susan C on October 30, 2001, at 14:55:36
Susan:
Don't want to know about the sanitary engineer thing...
I have had horrific nightmares all of my life until I took Topamax. That knocked me out cold every night, but unfortunately was also sedating during the day.
Prozac "brought back" (?) the nightmares two fold. Only if I take two doses of Exedrin P.M.-type sleep enhancer, which I believe is the same ingredient as Benedryl, can I sleep w/o horrible dreams now.
The nightmares haunt me during the day. They are truly awful. When I told my pdoc, he sort of shrugged them off. If I had told them what they were...
I sleep fitfully early at night, and heavily in early morning hours, thus, probably my trouble waking up.
- K.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 21:17:30
In reply to Me, posted by Mr.Scott on October 30, 2001, at 17:30:03
Mr. Scott:
This diagnosis does seem to be popular. But, if you can, I wouldn't worry about it so much. Be glad you have a diagnosis, and thus some where to start from. (or someplace from where to start ;).)
The diagnoses are going to change. The DSM is going to change. But having something solid to present to people if necessary is not a bad thing.
BP II - to me it's what pdoc's use to place folks who fall 'in between' depression and manic depression. Frankly, I don't agree with my diagnosis, because I can't explain my hallucinations and 'connections' with other beings during manic episodes. O.K. So maybe that's BP I.
But, the things you mention, the anxiousness, the preciousness, (perhaps also sometimes called impulsivitey), the intolerance of SSRI's - could fit the current category.
Whatever - it doesn't really matter. What matters is what med, if any, can help you. I was told that early on on this board and wouldn't listen.
I take Depakote now, after trying Topamax and Neurontin and Lamictal. The side effects For Me have been far less than Topamax and Lamictal, and the benefit far more than Neurontin. If you are Bipolar, you should not be on an AD without a stabilizer. I take Prozac as well, but neither my pdoc or I are sure if it's really helping. Just too scared to go off.
Manic Depression affects the way I think - I ruminate, everything races and gets muddled. An otherwise coherent and intelligent woman becomes a hyper child, driven by base instincts. Then it all crashes down. And it's been cycling more rapidly as I get older.
If you think you could be Bipolar, consider treatment now, b/c the longer you wait, the more likely you are to develop stronger and more frequent symptoms from what I have read.
- Ms. KK, exhausted from that long reply
Posted by Mr. Scott on October 30, 2001, at 23:36:15
In reply to Re: Me » Mr.Scott, posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 21:17:30
KK-
That was a great response to my rather disorganized ramblings. Thank You very much for taking the time to put your thoughts into words. I agree it's the med that works, not the diagnosis that is important.
Scott
Posted by JohnX2 on October 31, 2001, at 4:37:05
In reply to Me, posted by Mr.Scott on October 30, 2001, at 17:30:03
Scott,You have a lot of the same symptoms that I have.
I didn't like Depakote, Its a big pink pill from
what I remember. Although it did have a pleasant
odor attached to it. ;) Curiously of all the anti-convulsants
it was the only one that had absolutely no effect
on me. Placebo. Only thing was that it turned my
stools green. I've always wondered about my
intestinal tract. The depakote I took was sustained
release and those meds are supposed to sit in
your intestines and slowly absorb over timed.Anyways, have you given Lamictal a shot?
Lots of benifits:
-easy to swallow pill with once a day dosing (at therepeutic dose)
-benin side effects if you can get past the initial
stage where there is a chance of a rash.
-helps a lot of people where all else failed.
(like me).
-can treat unipolar as well as bipolar depressionTrileptal is pretty easy to swallow and works
fast. So does Neurontin, as far as other choices.I didn't read the your other posts so I may be
redundant here, but I wish you the best of luck,
and I'd like to stay on top of your story.-john
> I'm depressed most always, but can always crack a smile, even when I'm thinking about offing myself. Always anxious unless I take a benzo. Sensitive to critiscism, dislike/disrespect most authority. Can't tolerate SSRI's or other new AD's (All kinds of problems here). Don't want to take Depakote because of the side effects I hear it causes. Tend to get angry easily (eg. Arguing over politics or something with a friend), but only when I feel threatened. Can enjoy life, but only with a push. Past history of profound substance abuse, acting out as child, hated school except the social value of it which I loved...Now I am almost antisocial! "Precocious" behavior in childhood. Unfulfilled dreams... Recent breakup of 5 year relationship.
> Have tried ALL AD's on market, always some kind of side effect. Stayed on Prozac, Zoloft and Sinequan longest, but don't want the side effects and minimal efficacy anymore.
> Drink a lot of coffee, sleep like a baby, Wake up like a bear.
>
> Anyways I got Dx'd as BP2 recently instead of the long standing Dx of Depression and anxiety. But Depakote is a hard pill to swallow..literally.. And I don't know that I'm a full blown BP.
>
> I think I have "Dyslimbia" or something!!
> Sorry for the broken sentences.. I'm at work.
>
> Scott
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 31, 2001, at 8:37:19
In reply to Re: Me » Krazy Kat , posted by Mr. Scott on October 30, 2001, at 23:36:15
It helps to write things out. Did you notice I wrote "the preciousness" instead of "precociousness"? Freudian slip of sorts? :)
- K.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 31, 2001, at 8:39:59
In reply to Re: Me » Mr.Scott, posted by JohnX2 on October 31, 2001, at 4:37:05
It's just so interesting how differently we all react! Can't get over it.
And, yes, Depakote has a "sweet" smell to it. It's the coating. Hmmm, yum! ;)
Posted by susan C on October 31, 2001, at 10:04:34
In reply to Re: Meds » JohnX2, posted by Krazy Kat on October 31, 2001, at 8:39:59
> It's just so interesting how differently we all react! Can't get over it.
>
> And, yes, Depakote has a "sweet" smell to it. It's the coating. Hmmm, yum! ;)WHy, WHY do they put that in?
another safety caution alert: lock up those meds away from children and pets and other small creatures...
MM
susan C
Posted by susan C on October 31, 2001, at 10:28:15
In reply to Re: Me » Mr.Scott, posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 21:17:30
Posted by Mr.Scott on October 31, 2001, at 17:07:39
In reply to Question for Bipolar 2's, posted by Mr.Scott on October 29, 2001, at 15:01:26
Well then.. Since Depakote is so aromatically appealing (read previous posts) perhaps I can pass the stuff off as candy tonight for Halloween. I'll be sure to warn those cute youngsters about hair loss and weight gain first. Maybe they won't come back and TP my house like I probably did at that age either if they are stabilized.
Obviously I'm kidding here! :)
Scott
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