![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Cindylou on August 19, 2001, at 14:37:28
Hello,
Can anyone help me solve this riddle?A week ago, I added 5 mg. of Adderall to my Wellbutrin + Prozac mix (with the intention of dropping the Wellbutrin.) I decreased the Wellbutrin dosage by half, so I was taking half of a 75 mg. tablet twice a day along with 2.5 mg. of Adderall (I am quite med sensitive, so I take low doses). I take 10 mg. of Prozac in the evening because it tends to make me tired.
Well, last week I felt great! I had energy, I was motivated, I was clear-headed -- and all this during PMS! I thought I had found my "dream cocktail."
But this weekend, I went downhill and today I am so tired I can barely function. I can't sleep because my heart is racing and my ears are ringing. I'm Still on the same dosages.
What could be causing this? Could I have developed a tolerance to the Adderall already, and need more? Or, could this be some kind of delayed "rebound effect" that stimulants can have, leading to more depression? I truly doubt I had the placebo effect last week, because I usually react negatively to meds, so I wasn't expecting to feel better at all -- it was a surprise, actually.
Another question to add to this -- I have been considering trying Adrafinil in place of the Wellbutrin/Adderall. Any idea if I could take it along with the Adderall while I wait for it to kick in? Or should I just quit the Adderall and Wellbutrin altogether and start with the Adrafinil? (John L, if you're reading this, do you have any suggestions?)
Thank you all for your help! I am having such trouble these days. I know most of you can relate to this struggle. I'm glad to have your support, and hope to give some back to you :)
-cindy
Posted by Cindylou on August 19, 2001, at 15:55:47
In reply to Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted??, posted by Cindylou on August 19, 2001, at 14:37:28
Need to clarify something -- I CAN sleep at night, usually a good 8 hours. I will take 2.5 mg. of Klonapin if necessary. It's during the day, when I'm so tired and try to nap, that I can't sleep.
that's it ...
thanks.
> Hello,
> Can anyone help me solve this riddle?
>
> A week ago, I added 5 mg. of Adderall to my Wellbutrin + Prozac mix (with the intention of dropping the Wellbutrin.) I decreased the Wellbutrin dosage by half, so I was taking half of a 75 mg. tablet twice a day along with 2.5 mg. of Adderall (I am quite med sensitive, so I take low doses). I take 10 mg. of Prozac in the evening because it tends to make me tired.
>
> Well, last week I felt great! I had energy, I was motivated, I was clear-headed -- and all this during PMS! I thought I had found my "dream cocktail."
>
> But this weekend, I went downhill and today I am so tired I can barely function. I can't sleep because my heart is racing and my ears are ringing. I'm Still on the same dosages.
>
> What could be causing this? Could I have developed a tolerance to the Adderall already, and need more? Or, could this be some kind of delayed "rebound effect" that stimulants can have, leading to more depression? I truly doubt I had the placebo effect last week, because I usually react negatively to meds, so I wasn't expecting to feel better at all -- it was a surprise, actually.
>
> Another question to add to this -- I have been considering trying Adrafinil in place of the Wellbutrin/Adderall. Any idea if I could take it along with the Adderall while I wait for it to kick in? Or should I just quit the Adderall and Wellbutrin altogether and start with the Adrafinil? (John L, if you're reading this, do you have any suggestions?)
>
> Thank you all for your help! I am having such trouble these days. I know most of you can relate to this struggle. I'm glad to have your support, and hope to give some back to you :)
>
> -cindy
Posted by anita on August 19, 2001, at 16:37:35
In reply to Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted??, posted by Cindylou on August 19, 2001, at 14:37:28
Hi,
Stimulants can make some people paradoxically tired. With me, when I took them (Ritalin, Adderall, Parnate) I would be alert and slightly hyper for a few hours, then crash terribly, and after a week or so I wouldn't get the exitatory feeling at all, just feel strung out all the time. I know other people have felt this way too. This is why I've given up on stimulants.
But also part of the tiredness could be from lowering Wellbutrin. It's hard to tell what's causing what when you're fooling with more than one med at a time (as I do frequently!). Personally, I wouldn't take Adrafinil with Adderall, cause it may make your heart race even faster and may make you unpleasantly hyper. But I have heard from some that Adrafinil doesn't cause the same crashes as other stimulants, so it may be worth a try.
Good luck,
anita
> Hello,
> Can anyone help me solve this riddle?
>
> A week ago, I added 5 mg. of Adderall to my Wellbutrin + Prozac mix (with the intention of dropping the Wellbutrin.) I decreased the Wellbutrin dosage by half, so I was taking half of a 75 mg. tablet twice a day along with 2.5 mg. of Adderall (I am quite med sensitive, so I take low doses). I take 10 mg. of Prozac in the evening because it tends to make me tired.
>
> Well, last week I felt great! I had energy, I was motivated, I was clear-headed -- and all this during PMS! I thought I had found my "dream cocktail."
>
> But this weekend, I went downhill and today I am so tired I can barely function. I can't sleep because my heart is racing and my ears are ringing. I'm Still on the same dosages.
>
> What could be causing this? Could I have developed a tolerance to the Adderall already, and need more? Or, could this be some kind of delayed "rebound effect" that stimulants can have, leading to more depression? I truly doubt I had the placebo effect last week, because I usually react negatively to meds, so I wasn't expecting to feel better at all -- it was a surprise, actually.
>
> Another question to add to this -- I have been considering trying Adrafinil in place of the Wellbutrin/Adderall. Any idea if I could take it along with the Adderall while I wait for it to kick in? Or should I just quit the Adderall and Wellbutrin altogether and start with the Adrafinil? (John L, if you're reading this, do you have any suggestions?)
>
> Thank you all for your help! I am having such trouble these days. I know most of you can relate to this struggle. I'm glad to have your support, and hope to give some back to you :)
>
> -cindy
Posted by JohnL on August 19, 2001, at 17:51:55
In reply to Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted??, posted by Cindylou on August 19, 2001, at 14:37:28
Hi Cindy,
Well, on one hand I am troubled because things are getting weird for you. But on the other hand, I am enthusiastic because what is happening with you is exactly what happened with me when I tried stimulants (Ritalin, Ritalin SR, and Adderall), and I can tell you where the road went to and save you a lot of trouble. You described it very well. Modafinil also did the same thing with me. I don't know if it is poopout or tolerance or whether the stimulant screws up some other chemistry or what. But the bright side is that you are exhibiting all the clues that Adrafinil would work good for you. The clues and the hints are all there. So as you mentioned, I think Adrafinil is a top contender at this point.Until you can get some though, it will probably be a bit rough trying to figure out what to do in the meantime. I would also be a little bit suspecting of Wellbutrin. If any med is to be dropped, personally I would drop that one. Best to talk with your doc about it. It sounds like you are giving it some good thought, and I'm sure you'll do what's best for you.
John> Hello,
> Can anyone help me solve this riddle?
>
> A week ago, I added 5 mg. of Adderall to my Wellbutrin + Prozac mix (with the intention of dropping the Wellbutrin.) I decreased the Wellbutrin dosage by half, so I was taking half of a 75 mg. tablet twice a day along with 2.5 mg. of Adderall (I am quite med sensitive, so I take low doses). I take 10 mg. of Prozac in the evening because it tends to make me tired.
>
> Well, last week I felt great! I had energy, I was motivated, I was clear-headed -- and all this during PMS! I thought I had found my "dream cocktail."
>
> But this weekend, I went downhill and today I am so tired I can barely function. I can't sleep because my heart is racing and my ears are ringing. I'm Still on the same dosages.
>
> What could be causing this? Could I have developed a tolerance to the Adderall already, and need more? Or, could this be some kind of delayed "rebound effect" that stimulants can have, leading to more depression? I truly doubt I had the placebo effect last week, because I usually react negatively to meds, so I wasn't expecting to feel better at all -- it was a surprise, actually.
>
> Another question to add to this -- I have been considering trying Adrafinil in place of the Wellbutrin/Adderall. Any idea if I could take it along with the Adderall while I wait for it to kick in? Or should I just quit the Adderall and Wellbutrin altogether and start with the Adrafinil? (John L, if you're reading this, do you have any suggestions?)
>
> Thank you all for your help! I am having such trouble these days. I know most of you can relate to this struggle. I'm glad to have your support, and hope to give some back to you :)
>
> -cindy
Posted by Cindylou on August 19, 2001, at 18:44:00
In reply to Re: Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted??, posted by JohnL on August 19, 2001, at 17:51:55
Hi John,
Thank you! It's good to have hope :) I mentioned in another post to you (in your Prozac + Zyprexa + Adrafinil thread) that I DO have Adrafinil on hand -- I have been intrigued by it from your posts and actually ordered some a few weeks ago, just in case. So, I plan on starting out slowly -- maybe half a pill in the a.m. and another half in the afternoon?Thanks again. I'm hoping it will work for me. And I am truly happy you have found what works for you! You are great to share your experiences with everyone here.
-cindy
> Hi Cindy,
> Well, on one hand I am troubled because things are getting weird for you. But on the other hand, I am enthusiastic because what is happening with you is exactly what happened with me when I tried stimulants (Ritalin, Ritalin SR, and Adderall), and I can tell you where the road went to and save you a lot of trouble. You described it very well. Modafinil also did the same thing with me. I don't know if it is poopout or tolerance or whether the stimulant screws up some other chemistry or what. But the bright side is that you are exhibiting all the clues that Adrafinil would work good for you. The clues and the hints are all there. So as you mentioned, I think Adrafinil is a top contender at this point.
>
> Until you can get some though, it will probably be a bit rough trying to figure out what to do in the meantime. I would also be a little bit suspecting of Wellbutrin. If any med is to be dropped, personally I would drop that one. Best to talk with your doc about it. It sounds like you are giving it some good thought, and I'm sure you'll do what's best for you.
> John
>
> > Hello,
> > Can anyone help me solve this riddle?
> >
> > A week ago, I added 5 mg. of Adderall to my Wellbutrin + Prozac mix (with the intention of dropping the Wellbutrin.) I decreased the Wellbutrin dosage by half, so I was taking half of a 75 mg. tablet twice a day along with 2.5 mg. of Adderall (I am quite med sensitive, so I take low doses). I take 10 mg. of Prozac in the evening because it tends to make me tired.
> >
> > Well, last week I felt great! I had energy, I was motivated, I was clear-headed -- and all this during PMS! I thought I had found my "dream cocktail."
> >
> > But this weekend, I went downhill and today I am so tired I can barely function. I can't sleep because my heart is racing and my ears are ringing. I'm Still on the same dosages.
> >
> > What could be causing this? Could I have developed a tolerance to the Adderall already, and need more? Or, could this be some kind of delayed "rebound effect" that stimulants can have, leading to more depression? I truly doubt I had the placebo effect last week, because I usually react negatively to meds, so I wasn't expecting to feel better at all -- it was a surprise, actually.
> >
> > Another question to add to this -- I have been considering trying Adrafinil in place of the Wellbutrin/Adderall. Any idea if I could take it along with the Adderall while I wait for it to kick in? Or should I just quit the Adderall and Wellbutrin altogether and start with the Adrafinil? (John L, if you're reading this, do you have any suggestions?)
> >
> > Thank you all for your help! I am having such trouble these days. I know most of you can relate to this struggle. I'm glad to have your support, and hope to give some back to you :)
> >
> > -cindy
Posted by Cindylou on August 19, 2001, at 20:11:39
In reply to Re: Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted??, posted by anita on August 19, 2001, at 16:37:35
Thank you for your response, Anita -- it is helpful to know that I'm not the only one who reacts this way!
-cindy> Hi,
>
> Stimulants can make some people paradoxically tired. With me, when I took them (Ritalin, Adderall, Parnate) I would be alert and slightly hyper for a few hours, then crash terribly, and after a week or so I wouldn't get the exitatory feeling at all, just feel strung out all the time. I know other people have felt this way too. This is why I've given up on stimulants.
>
> But also part of the tiredness could be from lowering Wellbutrin. It's hard to tell what's causing what when you're fooling with more than one med at a time (as I do frequently!). Personally, I wouldn't take Adrafinil with Adderall, cause it may make your heart race even faster and may make you unpleasantly hyper. But I have heard from some that Adrafinil doesn't cause the same crashes as other stimulants, so it may be worth a try.
>
> Good luck,
> anita
>
>
> > Hello,
> > Can anyone help me solve this riddle?
> >
> > A week ago, I added 5 mg. of Adderall to my Wellbutrin + Prozac mix (with the intention of dropping the Wellbutrin.) I decreased the Wellbutrin dosage by half, so I was taking half of a 75 mg. tablet twice a day along with 2.5 mg. of Adderall (I am quite med sensitive, so I take low doses). I take 10 mg. of Prozac in the evening because it tends to make me tired.
> >
> > Well, last week I felt great! I had energy, I was motivated, I was clear-headed -- and all this during PMS! I thought I had found my "dream cocktail."
> >
> > But this weekend, I went downhill and today I am so tired I can barely function. I can't sleep because my heart is racing and my ears are ringing. I'm Still on the same dosages.
> >
> > What could be causing this? Could I have developed a tolerance to the Adderall already, and need more? Or, could this be some kind of delayed "rebound effect" that stimulants can have, leading to more depression? I truly doubt I had the placebo effect last week, because I usually react negatively to meds, so I wasn't expecting to feel better at all -- it was a surprise, actually.
> >
> > Another question to add to this -- I have been considering trying Adrafinil in place of the Wellbutrin/Adderall. Any idea if I could take it along with the Adderall while I wait for it to kick in? Or should I just quit the Adderall and Wellbutrin altogether and start with the Adrafinil? (John L, if you're reading this, do you have any suggestions?)
> >
> > Thank you all for your help! I am having such trouble these days. I know most of you can relate to this struggle. I'm glad to have your support, and hope to give some back to you :)
> >
> > -cindy
Posted by JohnL on August 20, 2001, at 3:52:12
In reply to Re: Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted?? » JohnL, posted by Cindylou on August 19, 2001, at 18:44:00
Hi Cindy,
Just a couple tips on Adrafinil. Cutting the pill in half is fine. That's what I did when I started. I worked up to a whole pill in about a week.You may notice something the first day or so, or you may not. I felt a hint of goodness the first day, which then faded over the next few days, but then returned slowly and steadily for days and weeks afterward. Adrafinil is much kinder and gentler than other stimulants. In fact I think calling it a stimulant isn't very accurate. It is in a class all its own, a class called 'good arousal' drugs. In France it is viewed as an antidepressant more than a stimulant. Unlike other stimulants, it does not seem to work right away. It usually starts working in about a week, but takes several weeks to really kick in. Things to look for that will clue you in that it is starting to work....1)You become more talkative, 2)More comfortable and confident around people, 3)More interested and motivated in activities and hobbies, 4)More creative and outgoing. With me I noticed a hint of improvement in the first week, but it really took about 2 months I think for the full effect.
The normal dose is 2 to 4 pills a day. But I'm doing fine on just 1 pill a day. That's probably because I also take Prozac and Zyprexa, and they are all working in concert. I have tried higher doses, but it just makes me kind of edgy, restless, exhausted and uncomfortable. You will have to experiment to find which dose is best for you.
One cool thing about Adrafinil is that it even works for normal people. Some people take it not for depression, but instead for memory enhancement. College students have been said to take it for better study and memorization.
Anyway, I send you my best wishes. I really hope it goes well for you.
John> Hi John,
> Thank you! It's good to have hope :) I mentioned in another post to you (in your Prozac + Zyprexa + Adrafinil thread) that I DO have Adrafinil on hand -- I have been intrigued by it from your posts and actually ordered some a few weeks ago, just in case. So, I plan on starting out slowly -- maybe half a pill in the a.m. and another half in the afternoon?
>
> Thanks again. I'm hoping it will work for me. And I am truly happy you have found what works for you! You are great to share your experiences with everyone here.
>
> -cindy
>
>
Posted by Cindylou on August 21, 2001, at 8:59:43
In reply to Re: Taking stimulants - Cindy, posted by JohnL on August 20, 2001, at 3:52:12
Hi John,
I started the Adrafinil yesterday; tried it alone, without the Wellbutrin and Adderall. Any chance that it could make me a bit tired and "out of it" at first? I react VERY differently to meds than most people ... I'm wondering if I need to start with just a half pill a day.Then again, I may have felt that way since I didn't take the Adderall or Wellbutrin. Today I'm trying Adrafinil plus Adderall to see if I feel any better. Then hopefully in the future I can drop the Adderall.
One more question -- why do you think Adderall is a better choice than Wellbutrin? I do seem to feel better with the Adderall (when it's working) than I do with the Wellbutrin, but I'm not sure why ...
Thanks John!
-cindy> Hi Cindy,
> Just a couple tips on Adrafinil. Cutting the pill in half is fine. That's what I did when I started. I worked up to a whole pill in about a week.
>
> You may notice something the first day or so, or you may not. I felt a hint of goodness the first day, which then faded over the next few days, but then returned slowly and steadily for days and weeks afterward. Adrafinil is much kinder and gentler than other stimulants. In fact I think calling it a stimulant isn't very accurate. It is in a class all its own, a class called 'good arousal' drugs. In France it is viewed as an antidepressant more than a stimulant. Unlike other stimulants, it does not seem to work right away. It usually starts working in about a week, but takes several weeks to really kick in. Things to look for that will clue you in that it is starting to work....1)You become more talkative, 2)More comfortable and confident around people, 3)More interested and motivated in activities and hobbies, 4)More creative and outgoing. With me I noticed a hint of improvement in the first week, but it really took about 2 months I think for the full effect.
>
> The normal dose is 2 to 4 pills a day. But I'm doing fine on just 1 pill a day. That's probably because I also take Prozac and Zyprexa, and they are all working in concert. I have tried higher doses, but it just makes me kind of edgy, restless, exhausted and uncomfortable. You will have to experiment to find which dose is best for you.
>
> One cool thing about Adrafinil is that it even works for normal people. Some people take it not for depression, but instead for memory enhancement. College students have been said to take it for better study and memorization.
>
> Anyway, I send you my best wishes. I really hope it goes well for you.
> John
>
> > Hi John,
> > Thank you! It's good to have hope :) I mentioned in another post to you (in your Prozac + Zyprexa + Adrafinil thread) that I DO have Adrafinil on hand -- I have been intrigued by it from your posts and actually ordered some a few weeks ago, just in case. So, I plan on starting out slowly -- maybe half a pill in the a.m. and another half in the afternoon?
> >
> > Thanks again. I'm hoping it will work for me. And I am truly happy you have found what works for you! You are great to share your experiences with everyone here.
> >
> > -cindy
> >
> >
Posted by Zo on August 21, 2001, at 21:51:21
In reply to Re: Taking stimulants - Cindy » JohnL, posted by Cindylou on August 21, 2001, at 8:59:43
> One more question -- why do you think Adderall is a better choice than Wellbutrin? I do seem to feel better with the Adderall (when it's working) than I do with the Wellbutrin, but I'm not sure why ...
"Cause Adderall is pure amphetamine salts! Pure pirpeline of dopamine, yum yum.
Meant to post earlier: I have CFS, and Dex and/or Adderall doesn't automatically cure fatigue. . .But they sure as hell (woops, heck) make a solid difference?
Zo
Posted by AndrewB on August 22, 2001, at 3:27:36
In reply to Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted??, posted by Cindylou on August 19, 2001, at 14:37:28
Cindy,
Cindy,
What you are experiencing is amphetamine poop-out. It is sooooo common. For me, adderall poops out in 3 or 4 days. At first I have great mood, energy, motivation, and sociability. But soon, too soon, I am left more tired than ever, irritable......down in the dumps.
What to do? Adrafinil is definitely a good option for arousal and has helped many people. Provigil, adrafinil’s cousin can help some also. Some people find that lose dose selegiline (i.e. 5mgs/day) gives good arousal. Other take drug holidays from amphetamines, say weekends off, and find this renews the effectiveness of the amphetamine. But the downside is that the days off will have you feeling sluggish, or worse yet, like a slug.
But let me explain specifically what is happening to you. The adderall has caused the NMDA receptor (a sub-type glutaminergic receptor) to become overactive. This will not only cause the poop out but also induces a more generalized neurotoxic effect on the brain and glutaminergic projections. One such projection is to the inner ear. Excess activity at the NMDA receptor in the ear causes ringing in the ears, tinnitus. The racing heart, I’m not sure of the mechanisms here, but amphetamines also cause stimulation of the peripheral norepinephrine system. This stimulation will often result in an increased heart rate. It is an effect of amphetamines that doesn’t tend poop out as quickly. It is quite possible the poop out of amphetamine for you includes poop out of actions that moderate this heart rate effect of amphetamines.
By the way, if adrafinil or other arousal agents don’t work for you, you can return to adderall and enjoy its initial good effects by combining the adderall with the non-competitive NMDA receptor antagonist Memantine. This should allow you, as it has allowed me, to, experience the positive mood, social confidence, motivation and energy effects of adderall on an ongoing basis. It also smoothes out and lengthens the effects of adderall. Memantine has another benefit, it keeps glutaminergic activity within safe physiological norms, thus protecting you from a variety of neurotoxic damage.
Memantine can be ordered with a prescription from www.daair.org, a non profit buyers cub in New York.
Remember for all those who take amphetamines that it prudent to take low dose selegiline (1mg. every day or every other day) and N-acetyl Cysteine (dosage: 1000mg. morning and evening, preferably b-4 meals). These will effectively counteract the harmful production of free radicals by amphetamines. One should consider taking these two med/supplements regardless of whether they take amphetamines or not. They act as antioxidants that are able to penetrate inside individual cell (very few antioxidants do), generally promoting greater health of the brain and body over the long-term. There is good evidence that such supplementation can invest one with greater health in old age, preventing the development of a myriad of diseases (i.e. Alzheimer’s) and, possibly, even increase one’s lifespan.
Best wishes,
AndrewB
Posted by Cindylou on August 22, 2001, at 13:10:01
In reply to Re: Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted??, posted by AndrewB on August 22, 2001, at 3:27:36
Hi Andrew,
Thank you SO MUCH for the excellent information. I will definitely look into all of the meds you mentioned here, particularly the Memantine. It was very helpful to understand what caused my ringing ears, racing heart, and tiredness all at the same time!A question for you ... have you known anyone to react negatively to Adrafinil? I tried taking it for only two days, and I only took 300 mg (half a pill twice a day) but felt sluggish and quite "out of it." I wasn't able to come up with words I was looking for, couldn't seem to retain anything in my brain -- that kind of thing. I didn't take it today and feel much better. I am very sensitive to meds, so I don't know if I should try just taking 1/2 tablet a day, or just write it off as a med that doesn't sit well with me.
Also, can Memantine or Selegiline have any adverse effects?
Thank you again for your thoughtful and informative response,
-cindy
> Cindy,
>
> What you are experiencing is amphetamine poop-out. It is sooooo common. For me, adderall poops out in 3 or 4 days. At first I have great mood, energy, motivation, and sociability. But soon, too soon, I am left more tired than ever, irritable......down in the dumps.
>
> What to do? Adrafinil is definitely a good option for arousal and has helped many people. Provigil, adrafinil’s cousin can help some also. Some people find that lose dose selegiline (i.e. 5mgs/day) gives good arousal. Other take drug holidays from amphetamines, say weekends off, and find this renews the effectiveness of the amphetamine. But the downside is that the days off will have you feeling sluggish, or worse yet, like a slug.
>
> But let me explain specifically what is happening to you. The adderall has caused the NMDA receptor (a sub-type glutaminergic receptor) to become overactive. This will not only cause the poop out but also induces a more generalized neurotoxic effect on the brain and glutaminergic projections. One such projection is to the inner ear. Excess activity at the NMDA receptor in the ear causes ringing in the ears, tinnitus. The racing heart, I’m not sure of the mechanisms here, but amphetamines also cause stimulation of the peripheral norepinephrine system. This stimulation will often result in an increased heart rate. It is an effect of amphetamines that doesn’t tend poop out as quickly. It is quite possible the poop out of amphetamine for you includes poop out of actions that moderate this heart rate effect of amphetamines.
>
> By the way, if adrafinil or other arousal agents don’t work for you, you can return to adderall and enjoy its initial good effects by combining the adderall with the non-competitive NMDA receptor antagonist Memantine. This should allow you, as it has allowed me, to, experience the positive mood, social confidence, motivation and energy effects of adderall on an ongoing basis. It also smoothes out and lengthens the effects of adderall. Memantine has another benefit, it keeps glutaminergic activity within safe physiological norms, thus protecting you from a variety of neurotoxic damage.
>
> Memantine can be ordered with a prescription from www.daair.org, a non profit buyers cub in New York.
>
> Remember for all those who take amphetamines that it prudent to take low dose selegiline (1mg. every day or every other day) and N-acetyl Cysteine (dosage: 1000mg. morning and evening, preferably b-4 meals). These will effectively counteract the harmful production of free radicals by amphetamines. One should consider taking these two med/supplements regardless of whether they take amphetamines or not. They act as antioxidants that are able to penetrate inside individual cell (very few antioxidants do), generally promoting greater health of the brain and body over the long-term. There is good evidence that such supplementation can invest one with greater health in old age, preventing the development of a myriad of diseases (i.e. Alzheimer’s) and, possibly, even increase one’s lifespan.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> AndrewB
Posted by SalArmy4me on August 23, 2001, at 7:43:10
In reply to Re: Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted?? » AndrewB, posted by Cindylou on August 22, 2001, at 13:10:01
Posted by Cindylou on August 23, 2001, at 13:08:24
In reply to Re: Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted?? » AndrewB, posted by Cindylou on August 22, 2001, at 13:10:01
Hello,
Andrew B. discussed the possibility of adding Memantine to Adderall to help keep Adderall from "pooping out" --Has anyone out there taken Memantine before? Is it FDA approved yet? I did a small bit of research on the web, and it seems to still be in clinical trials. Also, does anyone know if it is safe to take with Prozac??
Another question -- is Selegiline safe to take with Prozac? Has anyone out there taken this combo? I read conflicting reports in the archives on this issue -- wondering if there are any new experiences, opinions, etc.
Thank you!
-cindy> Hi Andrew,
> Thank you SO MUCH for the excellent information. I will definitely look into all of the meds you mentioned here, particularly the Memantine. It was very helpful to understand what caused my ringing ears, racing heart, and tiredness all at the same time!
>
> A question for you ... have you known anyone to react negatively to Adrafinil? I tried taking it for only two days, and I only took 300 mg (half a pill twice a day) but felt sluggish and quite "out of it." I wasn't able to come up with words I was looking for, couldn't seem to retain anything in my brain -- that kind of thing. I didn't take it today and feel much better. I am very sensitive to meds, so I don't know if I should try just taking 1/2 tablet a day, or just write it off as a med that doesn't sit well with me.
>
> Also, can Memantine or Selegiline have any adverse effects?
>
> Thank you again for your thoughtful and informative response,
> -cindy
>
>
> > Cindy,
> >
> > What you are experiencing is amphetamine poop-out. It is sooooo common. For me, adderall poops out in 3 or 4 days. At first I have great mood, energy, motivation, and sociability. But soon, too soon, I am left more tired than ever, irritable......down in the dumps.
> >
> > What to do? Adrafinil is definitely a good option for arousal and has helped many people. Provigil, adrafinil’s cousin can help some also. Some people find that lose dose selegiline (i.e. 5mgs/day) gives good arousal. Other take drug holidays from amphetamines, say weekends off, and find this renews the effectiveness of the amphetamine. But the downside is that the days off will have you feeling sluggish, or worse yet, like a slug.
> >
> > But let me explain specifically what is happening to you. The adderall has caused the NMDA receptor (a sub-type glutaminergic receptor) to become overactive. This will not only cause the poop out but also induces a more generalized neurotoxic effect on the brain and glutaminergic projections. One such projection is to the inner ear. Excess activity at the NMDA receptor in the ear causes ringing in the ears, tinnitus. The racing heart, I’m not sure of the mechanisms here, but amphetamines also cause stimulation of the peripheral norepinephrine system. This stimulation will often result in an increased heart rate. It is an effect of amphetamines that doesn’t tend poop out as quickly. It is quite possible the poop out of amphetamine for you includes poop out of actions that moderate this heart rate effect of amphetamines.
> >
> > By the way, if adrafinil or other arousal agents don’t work for you, you can return to adderall and enjoy its initial good effects by combining the adderall with the non-competitive NMDA receptor antagonist Memantine. This should allow you, as it has allowed me, to, experience the positive mood, social confidence, motivation and energy effects of adderall on an ongoing basis. It also smoothes out and lengthens the effects of adderall. Memantine has another benefit, it keeps glutaminergic activity within safe physiological norms, thus protecting you from a variety of neurotoxic damage.
> >
> > Memantine can be ordered with a prescription from www.daair.org, a non profit buyers cub in New York.
> >
> > Remember for all those who take amphetamines that it prudent to take low dose selegiline (1mg. every day or every other day) and N-acetyl Cysteine (dosage: 1000mg. morning and evening, preferably b-4 meals). These will effectively counteract the harmful production of free radicals by amphetamines. One should consider taking these two med/supplements regardless of whether they take amphetamines or not. They act as antioxidants that are able to penetrate inside individual cell (very few antioxidants do), generally promoting greater health of the brain and body over the long-term. There is good evidence that such supplementation can invest one with greater health in old age, preventing the development of a myriad of diseases (i.e. Alzheimer’s) and, possibly, even increase one’s lifespan.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > AndrewB
Posted by SLS on August 23, 2001, at 19:36:51
In reply to Re: Taking stimulants - Memantine, Selegiline?, posted by Cindylou on August 23, 2001, at 13:08:24
> Hello,
> Andrew B. discussed the possibility of adding Memantine to Adderall to help keep Adderall from "pooping out" --Yes. His discovery is very exciting. He's a real smart guy.
I am becoming interested in using memantine to augment antidepressants rather than stimulants. I am hoping that my partial response to Lamictal (lamotrigine) is a prognosticator of efficacy.
> Has anyone out there taken Memantine before? Is it FDA approved yet? I did a small bit of research on the web, and it seems to still be in clinical trials.It is being studied as a treatment for Alzheimer's Dementia.
> Also, does anyone know if it is safe to take with Prozac??
I wouldn't think there would be a problem, but Andrew would be a better judge of that.
> Another question -- is Selegiline safe to take with Prozac? Has anyone out there taken this combo? I read conflicting reports in the archives on this issue -- wondering if there are any new experiences, opinions, etc.Generally, it is thought that low dosages of selegiline - 10mg or less - does not affect serotonin in such a way as to cause a problem with Prozac (serotonin syndrome). However, I see that there are some reported incidents on Medline. Personally, I would not be comfortable with trying this combination without receiving input from doctors and patients who have experience with such a combination.
Two conflicting opinions:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9109902&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9167831&dopt=Abstract
- Scott
Posted by EERRIICC on January 4, 2005, at 15:30:32
In reply to Re: Taking stimulants - so why am I exhausted??, posted by AndrewB on August 22, 2001, at 3:27:36
Andrew, I am very exited about and interested in the use or NMDA antagonists with stimulants. I would really like to ask you some questions, so if you get this message please reply. Thank you for posting the results of your research.
Eric
This is the end of the thread.
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