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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by ronaldo on December 11, 2006, at 1:04:26
Is this the right way to do it?
Anyone ever come off it successfully cold turkey?
I am a veteran of two attempts. First time I got down to 2.5 mg and the insomnia made me pack it in. My full dose on that occasion was only 5 mg.
Next time I successfully got down to zero Zyp for about 11 days but persistent insomnia plus anxiety plus restlessness forced me to go back on the Zyp. Lack of sleep was making me hypo-manic. Things were also complicated by the fact that I started a course of Seroquel just as I came off the Zyp. The Seroquel intended for sleep did not work for me. I also tried 7.5 mg and 15mg of Zopiclone. That didn't work either. Some of my suffering may have been caused by the Seroquel I don't know. I think I may have spoilt my chances with the Seroquel by taking too much. The closest I came to actually falling asleep was on just approx. 8 mg of Seroquel. I lay down on my bed and the room revolved a bit but no I did not fall asleep! I had been taking 25 mg and 50 mg and 100 mg.
As you can gather my main problem is insomnia. It seems to me that once your brain is thirsting for some Zyp it will not allow anything else, in my case Seroquel and Zopiclone, to work. It seems that you have to fight this devil on even terms without the help of anything else.
I have embarked on my third and hopefully my final attempt. I was on 10 mg then I brought it down to 7.5 mg and then I brought it down to 5 mg. That is where I am at present. I have been on 5 mg for 11 days. I plan to stick with the 5 mg for another week and then take it down to 3.75 mg - a 7.5 mg tab cut in two. I will stick with that for about two weeks and then I will reduce to 2.5 mg. Three weeks on the 2.5 mg and then down to the 1.25 mg for approx. two weeks and then ZERO. And this time I hope the Zyp will concede defeat and not come back and bite me in the bum!
Posted by Phillipa on December 11, 2006, at 1:04:27
In reply to Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly, posted by ronaldo on December 10, 2006, at 12:33:49
Ronaldo does it work at l0mg? If so why go off it? Love Phillipa
Posted by Guy on December 11, 2006, at 1:04:28
In reply to Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly, posted by ronaldo on December 10, 2006, at 12:33:49
Ronaldo, I know exactly where you are coming from. Zyprexa has the absolute worst rebound insomnia, something which is very well documented on insomnia boards. Here is a suggestion: switch to 50 mg or so of the tricyclic Doxepin. In the past, I have quit 10 mg of Zyprexa cold turkey with almost no withdrawal if I replaced it with 100 mg of Doxepin. Stay on the Doxepin for a few weeks and then begin a slow taper...you may find the insomnia less severe. However, if you're still struggling, try switching again to Remeron and weaning off of that. This has worked for me. Of course, everyone is different and your mileage may vary.
Good luck,
Guy
Posted by ronaldo on December 11, 2006, at 1:04:28
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly » ronaldo, posted by Phillipa on December 10, 2006, at 12:53:32
> Ronaldo does it work at l0mg? If so why go off it? Love Phillipa
Hello Phillipa,
I hope you are reasonably well.
I manage to get some sleep on the 10 mg Zyp but the problem is a whole list of unpleasant side effects such as flat mood, flat affect, blunted cognition, avolition, anhedonia and the list goes on...
Plus Zyp can cause diabetes and weight gain. Thankfully the weight gain is not a problem for me, but I just don't like the stuff - I feel permanently sedated and half asleep. I feel I am letting my life slip past me in a drug-induced trance. I just want to be off it.
...ronaldo
Posted by ronaldo on December 11, 2006, at 1:04:28
In reply to Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly, posted by ronaldo on December 10, 2006, at 12:33:49
Sorry folks I made a mistake. On my second attempt I had the Zyp down to Zero FOR 21 DAYS NOT 11 DAYS. The insomnia refused to go away and resisted treatment with Seroquel and Zopiclone.
Is this the right way to do it?
>
> Anyone ever come off it successfully cold turkey?
>
> I am a veteran of two attempts. First time I got down to 2.5 mg and the insomnia made me pack it in. My full dose on that occasion was only 5 mg.
>
> Next time I successfully got down to zero Zyp for ABOUT 21 DAYS but persistent insomnia plus anxiety plus restlessness forced me to go back on the Zyp. Lack of sleep was making me hypo-manic. Things were also complicated by the fact that I started a course of Seroquel just as I came off the Zyp. The Seroquel intended for sleep did not work for me. I also tried 7.5 mg and 15mg of Zopiclone. That didn't work either. Some of my suffering may have been caused by the Seroquel I don't know. I think I may have spoilt my chances with the Seroquel by taking too much. The closest I came to actually falling asleep was on just approx. 8 mg of Seroquel. I lay down on my bed and the room revolved a bit but no I did not fall asleep! I had been taking 25 mg and 50 mg and 100 mg.
>
> As you can gather my main problem is insomnia. It seems to me that once your brain is thirsting for some Zyp it will not allow anything else, in my case Seroquel and Zopiclone, to work. It seems that you have to fight this devil on even terms without the help of anything else.
>
> I have embarked on my third and hopefully my final attempt. I was on 10 mg then I brought it down to 7.5 mg and then I brought it down to 5 mg. That is where I am at present. I have been on 5 mg for 11 days. I plan to stick with the 5 mg for another week and then take it down to 3.75 mg - a 7.5 mg tab cut in two. I will stick with that for about two weeks and then I will reduce to 2.5 mg. Three weeks on the 2.5 mg and then down to the 1.25 mg for approx. two weeks and then ZERO. And this time I hope the Zyp will concede defeat and not come back and bite me in the bum!
Posted by blueberry on December 11, 2006, at 1:04:29
In reply to Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly, posted by ronaldo on December 10, 2006, at 12:33:49
I weaned off of zyprexa in 2005. 5mg to 0 in 3 months. Serious trouble at 1.25mg. I toughed it out. I went about a month without it. A month straight from hell. Extreme out of this world anxiety, extreme restlessness, poor sleep, no appetite, fits of crying depression at random times, no interest in living, free-floating fear. It just would not get any better.
The sad thing is that none of these conditions existed prior to starting zyprexa, except the depression. 10 years on zyprexa. Yikes.
After that month I had extreme paranoia at a week long company meeting and started it up at 1.25mg twice a day. It's been 2.5mg for months. Recently I whittled down to 1.25mg and thought it was going ok. Yesterday symptoms hit again full force. Absolute fierce terrifying anxiety, knee shakes, finger and thumb shakes, overall free-floating fear. This morning I had to play guitar in church and was an absolute wreck when I woke up, so I took an extra 1.25mg first thing when I woke. It kicked in just in time and I got relaxed and the withdrawals went away. So now I'm back at 2.5mg. Damn.
I can't take the suggested doxepin or remeron because they made me extremely depressed when I tried them before. I'm thinking my only alternative is to do a crossover taper onto xanax. I mean, if I have to live with a calming agent the rest of my life, I would rather it be xanax than zyprexa.
Amisulpride and xanax sounds pretty good. Amisulpride was good when I tried it 10 years ago. Xanax has saved me a few times. The whole reuptake inhibitor thing just doesn't cut it with me. Goodbye sex life though, unless maybe a dopamine agonist could help that. In any case, zyprexa withdrawals are going badly, my st johns wort and lithium orotate are not doing much more than putting a weak floor underneath me.
Zyprexa. The true meaning of sweet and sour.
Posted by linkadge on December 11, 2006, at 1:04:29
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly, posted by ronaldo on December 10, 2006, at 13:25:49
You could also try cyproheptadine (periacin) an OTC antihistamine in canada. Good for sleep.
You could also try melatonin seroquel. I found that there was synergy between melaonin and seroquel. Neither alone helped insomnia, but combined they did. Good Luck
Linkadge
Posted by ronaldo on December 11, 2006, at 1:04:30
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly, posted by linkadge on December 10, 2006, at 14:39:31
> You could also try cyproheptadine (periacin) an OTC antihistamine in canada. Good for sleep.
>
> You could also try melatonin seroquel. I found that there was synergy between melaonin and seroquel. Neither alone helped insomnia, but combined they did. Good Luck
>
> LinkadgeHi Linkadge,
I came across this warning re cyproheptadine which I feel duty bound to pass on:
Do not take cyproheptadine if you have taken a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) such as isocarboxazid (Marplan), phenelzine (Nardil), or tranylcypromine (Parnate) in the last 14 days. A very dangerous drug interaction could occur, leading to serious side effects.
http://health.yahoo.com/drug/D00790A1#d00790a1-nottake
Regards
....ronaldo
Posted by linkadge on December 11, 2006, at 1:04:30
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly » linkadge, posted by ronaldo on December 10, 2006, at 15:16:48
I think this is probably a warning that was applied to other antihistamines with effects on monoamine uptake, but would not occur with cyproheptadine.
I agree that certain antihisamines like benydryl or chlorpeniramine with measurable effect on serotonin uptake should not be combined with MAOI's, but I don't think cyproheptadine would pose a problem as it has no effect on monamine uptake.
It is a serotonin antagonist that is often used to treat serotonin syndrome, should it occur.
I am not saying this is the final answer, but I think it was probably a carryover warning from other antihisamines.
Linkadge
Posted by ronaldo on December 11, 2006, at 1:52:03
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly, posted by linkadge on December 10, 2006, at 15:55:55
> I think this is probably a warning that was applied to other antihistamines with effects on monoamine uptake, but would not occur with cyproheptadine.
>
> I agree that certain antihisamines like benydryl or chlorpeniramine with measurable effect on serotonin uptake should not be combined with MAOI's, but I don't think cyproheptadine would pose a problem as it has no effect on monamine uptake.
>
> It is a serotonin antagonist that is often used to treat serotonin syndrome, should it occur.
>
> I am not saying this is the final answer, but I think it was probably a carryover warning from other antihisamines.
>
>
> LinkadgeHi Linkadge
Cyproheptadine.com - The official site for cyproheptadine... carries the same warning:
"Before taking Cyproheptadine:
Please inform your doctor if you are taking any of the following medicines: anxiety or sleep medicines such as alprazolam (Xanax®), diazepam (Valium®), chlordiazepoxide (Librium®), temazepam (Restoril®), or triazolam (Halcion®); medications for depression such as amitriptyline (Elavil®), doxepin (Sinequan®), nortriptyline (Pamelor®), fluoxetine (Prozac®), sertraline (Zoloft®), or paroxetine (Paxil®); or any other medications that make you feel drowsy, sleepy, or relaxed."
...."So too, do not take cyproheptadine if you have taken a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) such as isocarboxazid (Marplan®), phenelzine (Nardil®), or tranylcypromine (Parnate®) in the last 14 days. A very dangerous drug interaction could occur, leading to serious side effects."
http://www.cyproheptadine.com/cyproheptadine_precautions/
Luckily this warning would not affect me as I don't use any of the above. But many of the above listed medicines are used by babblers.
Better I say to err on the side of caution.
...ronaldo
Posted by ronaldo on December 11, 2006, at 16:05:15
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly, posted by Guy on December 10, 2006, at 13:09:30
> Ronaldo, I know exactly where you are coming from. Zyprexa has the absolute worst rebound insomnia, something which is very well documented on insomnia boards. Here is a suggestion: switch to 50 mg or so of the tricyclic Doxepin. In the past, I have quit 10 mg of Zyprexa cold turkey with almost no withdrawal if I replaced it with 100 mg of Doxepin. Stay on the Doxepin for a few weeks and then begin a slow taper...you may find the insomnia less severe.
When you say a slow taper do you mean a slow taper off the Zyprexa? or do you mean quit the Zyprexa cold turkey and then taper off the Doxepin?
>However, if you're still struggling, try switching again to Remeron and weaning off of that. This has worked for me.
Again do you mean quit the Zyprexa cold turkey and then taper off the Remeron? Sorry if I come across as a bit obtuse (I probably am :-))but I need to get this crystal clear.
>Of course, everyone is different and your mileage may vary.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Guy
Posted by Guy on December 21, 2006, at 19:08:20
In reply to Zyprexa withdrawal - baby steps, and slowly slowly, posted by ronaldo on December 10, 2006, at 12:33:49
Ronaldo,
Surprisingly, I have not found Zyprexa to be very difficult to quit. As mentioned, I have quit 10 mg cold turkey by switching to 100 mg of doxepin. You may, of course, be very different. All I'm saying, is that if you can get the Zyprexa dose down as low as possible, you might be able to switch to a tricyclic with little discomfort. The worst for me is always insomnia, and doxepin does help with that problem. Anyway, that's my experience. As far as going totally med-free, doxepin is actually quite difficult to discontinue because of the rebound insomnia. That's why a final switch to Remeron might help as I have found I am able to wean off that med, albeit not without pain and discomfort. There just is no easy way, only various strategies that can be attempted. Whatever you do, I wish you luck and lots of inner strength. The main thing is to try to remain calm and focused.
Take care,
Guy
This is the end of the thread.
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