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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jeninco on May 28, 2006, at 10:30:57
Jules,
I read one of your earlier posts that mentioned a slow approach to tapering down on the remeron. As you are one of the ones who has made it for several months, I was interested in how long you did this. I'm currently taking less than 1/2 of a 15 mg pill. I split it in half then take another piece off the 1/2 pill, so not sure what that amount is. I only need it for the drowsiness, that's the only reason I ever took it! I thought on my low dosage I could just stop it, but was only able to stay off for about 2 1/2 weeks before I got so sick and sleep deprived I started up again.
I'd appreciate any advice you have!
Posted by musky on May 28, 2006, at 23:27:36
In reply to Remeron Jules, posted by jeninco on May 28, 2006, at 10:30:57
>Hey jenico:
I just noticed your post... I tapered very slowly and this really makes a difference... I went from 7.5mg and then to 3.75 mg then to about 2mg..
I cut the 7.5mg in half with a pill cutter which gave me the 3.75mg, then i cut that in half(roughly) or just used my nail to break of the bit which kinda looked like half.. this sounds very silly but that drug at least for me was very sensitive... I stayed on each dosage for about 3months... giving the body time to adjust each time... then I completely stopped as of 4days ago... so far so good... we'll see
HOpe this helps you outMusky
Jules,
>
> I read one of your earlier posts that mentioned a slow approach to tapering down on the remeron. As you are one of the ones who has made it for several months, I was interested in how long you did this. I'm currently taking less than 1/2 of a 15 mg pill. I split it in half then take another piece off the 1/2 pill, so not sure what that amount is. I only need it for the drowsiness, that's the only reason I ever took it! I thought on my low dosage I could just stop it, but was only able to stay off for about 2 1/2 weeks before I got so sick and sleep deprived I started up again.
>
> I'd appreciate any advice you have!
>
Posted by jules354 on May 30, 2006, at 0:25:50
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules, posted by musky on May 28, 2006, at 23:27:36
hi jenico,
i actually think i didn't have a good experience splitting a pill more than once as you are doing - i suspect it made my doses uneven (this is totally unscientific, but it made me wonder if at the lower doses having inexact pill sizes means your dose really varies when you split it this way). i found i felt better at the lower doses when my dr. prescribed a scored 7.5mg tablet and i split that in half when needed. i'd recommend talking w/ your dr. about getting on a low low dose if you want to just take it for sleeping and/or are looking to go off completely eventually, i hope this helps!
take care,
jules
Posted by musky on May 31, 2006, at 0:33:52
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules, posted by jules354 on May 30, 2006, at 0:25:50
>
Hey jules... as I have been off this Remeron ... its been 6days now.. alittle more down today,, but I just went into my little survival bag and pulled out some meditation tape and listened to that, sat out in the sun, and finished a novel of mine.. But I cant help but wonder if this drug does permanent damage... i know i sound a little paranoid maybe here.. but its been on my mind.
I havent found any evidence to this out there and Im told by a pharmacologist friend of mine that the effects of the Remeron should only be temporary and that it wouldnt damage the receptors in the brain... that the receptors will kick in again after the drug is gone...
Help... I think I need alittle reassurance right now , especially since my mood kinda dwindled today... I was thinking of you and it seems you are doing all right...no permanent scars(lol)? Also how long were you on the Remeron?? I was taking it for 3yrs(total time including tapering time).. so actually I was on it for over a year and started weaning in 2004 >> I think>>>
I have it written down some where.
Hope im not sounding too silly here...just a little worried of what I did to myself ...with this horrible drug.Musky
hi jenico,
>
> i actually think i didn't have a good experience splitting a pill more than once as you are doing - i suspect it made my doses uneven (this is totally unscientific, but it made me wonder if at the lower doses having inexact pill sizes means your dose really varies when you split it this way). i found i felt better at the lower doses when my dr. prescribed a scored 7.5mg tablet and i split that in half when needed. i'd recommend talking w/ your dr. about getting on a low low dose if you want to just take it for sleeping and/or are looking to go off completely eventually, i hope this helps!
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by jeninco on May 31, 2006, at 10:50:01
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules, posted by musky on May 31, 2006, at 0:33:52
Musky,
It's going to get rough, just know that and prepare yourself. I breezed through the first week and a half, relatively problem-free (with the exception of insomnia which is a given for me). My doctor told me at day 14 that any affects I should have felt from the medicine would have been completely gone by then. But we here know differently. Around days 15+ I hit a wall and couldn't recover, and as you know started back 5 days later(but I had stopped cold turkey).
You have certainly taken every precaution in weaning so slowly, but don't assume that will be enough for you to stop without terrible withdrawal. I think you, like me, are incredibly sensitive to this drug. I have never taken more than 5 mg and I still had horribly severe withdrawal.
I think, you are going to have to decide that this is going to be "it", and stick to it. I have two small children to take care of and literally was unable to hang in there. But I think you can do this. Just know it will pass and resolve yourself to a few weeks of discomfort.
I'm so sorry things aren't going better. It IS powerful. Don't you see your acupuncturist today?
Posted by jules354 on May 31, 2006, at 11:48:07
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules, posted by musky on May 31, 2006, at 0:33:52
hey musky,
i would hang in there, i suspect it's your mood talking. i had some heavy ups and downs during my first few weeks after my last dose. it's scary to wonder if the drug is irreversible, i know. i was on it for a total of about 6 yrs.
i don't honestly know if ADs do permanent damage to your brain but i do believe that depression and anxiety affect the brain, as does therapy...other people on these boards know more than i do, but i remember reading a book years ago about how talk therapy affects not just how you deal with your feelings as they come up but the actual physiology of your brain processes. powerful and kinda beautiful stuff, i think. this would all lead me to believe that nothing is irreversible when it comes to psychiatric drugs (unless it's something like heart or thyroid damage, maybe?).
but i honestly don't really know what i'm talking about. :)
hang in there - you know what you're doing and your body is wise.
take care,
jules
Posted by musky on June 1, 2006, at 1:20:43
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules, posted by jeninco on May 31, 2006, at 10:50:01
>Jenico:
thanks for your support.. Yes I expect things to get a little rough but the way I see it ,,, if we think negative about this , then it will be.. I am trying to keep a positive attitude.
Yes I had acupuncture today and told the acupuncturist where i was at my schedule.. He said yes..."now we get serious with withdrawl" and he is so supporting of me . He's bumped up the visits to once a week now and we will go from there how I feel.. then cut back again. He also told me that if I feel more tense, or real down, to not hesitate and come in sooner.. He is really dedicated to help me through this once and for all.
I feel more even mood tonight after todays treatment. I was more down yesterday so this has definitely helped...
I am also starting with my meditation again.. and visualizing myself getting out of this.
Other than that my sleep is kinda stressed but I am managing and the acupuncture will help with this also... I find if you dont stress about not sleeping it is ALOT better and then you do sleep..
Im not gonna worry about every symptom.. just try to keep busy.Today is day 7 off and still going along!
MuskyMusky,
>
> It's going to get rough, just know that and prepare yourself. I breezed through the first week and a half, relatively problem-free (with the exception of insomnia which is a given for me). My doctor told me at day 14 that any affects I should have felt from the medicine would have been completely gone by then. But we here know differently. Around days 15+ I hit a wall and couldn't recover, and as you know started back 5 days later(but I had stopped cold turkey).
>
> You have certainly taken every precaution in weaning so slowly, but don't assume that will be enough for you to stop without terrible withdrawal. I think you, like me, are incredibly sensitive to this drug. I have never taken more than 5 mg and I still had horribly severe withdrawal.
>
> I think, you are going to have to decide that this is going to be "it", and stick to it. I have two small children to take care of and literally was unable to hang in there. But I think you can do this. Just know it will pass and resolve yourself to a few weeks of discomfort.
>
> I'm so sorry things aren't going better. It IS powerful. Don't you see your acupuncturist today?
>
>
Posted by musky on June 1, 2006, at 1:32:50
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules » musky, posted by jules354 on May 31, 2006, at 11:48:07
>Thanks jules...
I had acupuncture today and I feel better ... the acupuncurist is bumping up my visits to every week from every 3 weeks... now that Im totally off. He said to just wait and see and we will go from there and over the next 2 weeks if i feel stable mood, then we will cut back again.
He also said that if any time I feel more tense or really down to not wait and come in sooner than the once a week... so I will play it by ear.
I decided to get back into my meditation tapes as well.. I really feel drawn to them since yesterday, so I believe this is my body telling me what it needs me to do.. naturally.
Funny now that Im a little more even mood today that my fears of the damage to the receptors has been put into perspective..
I dont think there is any brain damage per say or this would show in intial testing when they first tested this drug and did follow up MRI's of the brain on the test animals., etc.
Also I talked again to my pharmacology friend who said that the brain will make new receptors even "if" it were true and they were damaged by the remeron.. Receptors are just proteins and its not as if actual tissue was damaged..
And even so... if the worst case scenario were true then really its kinda late now.. Ive taken the drug and that is that... I think this is just temporary stuff and the body will heal..
I keep trying to think this way and not catastrophosize too much...thanks for your support
Day 7 OFF today and really the acupuncture helped!!Musky
hey musky,
>
> i would hang in there, i suspect it's your mood talking. i had some heavy ups and downs during my first few weeks after my last dose. it's scary to wonder if the drug is irreversible, i know. i was on it for a total of about 6 yrs.
>
> i don't honestly know if ADs do permanent damage to your brain but i do believe that depression and anxiety affect the brain, as does therapy...other people on these boards know more than i do, but i remember reading a book years ago about how talk therapy affects not just how you deal with your feelings as they come up but the actual physiology of your brain processes. powerful and kinda beautiful stuff, i think. this would all lead me to believe that nothing is irreversible when it comes to psychiatric drugs (unless it's something like heart or thyroid damage, maybe?).
>
> but i honestly don't really know what i'm talking about. :)
>
> hang in there - you know what you're doing and your body is wise.
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by johnnyj on June 1, 2006, at 9:48:42
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules, posted by musky on June 1, 2006, at 1:32:50
Musky,
My last dose was last Wendneday. When was your last dose? It seems we are very close to the same schedule.
I woke up about 3 last night and was very nauseated. I don't want to get graphic here but I find that I had a hard time urinating on remeron and now that is better. I slept some after going back to bed but I am tired. I try to eat even when I have the nausea. Some anxiety last night but not too bad.
One thing that is hard is the acute hearing and smell I have. I have had this before when cutting doses and also with cutting other meds too. Makes it hard to sleep and eat when things are kind of wired. I just will wait it out. Heavy sponge brain today too. I agree that receptors are not damaged just need to normalize again and maybe produce more and that takes time. I will see if I can see my acupuncturist tomorrow. I need something to help balance me a bit. take care
johnnyj
Posted by musky on June 1, 2006, at 23:57:48
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules » musky, posted by johnnyj on June 1, 2006, at 9:48:42
>
Johnnyj sorry to hear you have the nausea... that sucks... again try gingerale.. even keep some beside your bed at night in case...my last dose was last Tuesday,, so it looks like yes we are on the same schedule... hopefully we can ride this damn tide out..
Yesterday day 7 off I was kinda down more than the first 6 days... so I had acupuncture and it really helped balance me out.. however that seemed to have lasted only until tonight.. Iwas quite down and was going into my little saftey net bag for anything to help me.. I meditated with one of my meditative tapes(it is native indian music.. very peaceful), then read, then sat outside, then watched a movie but I just couldnt shake this uggh feeling.. so I sang some( I sing on the side..lol) and right now I feel kinda better... Boy I sure hope it doesnt get worse.. also had nausea this morning but it was short lived.. only seems to be in the morning..
My acupuncturist wants to see me more often now that I am off. He said time to get very serious and not to worry.. Im supposed to go now once a week and then see how I am in a couple of weeks before cutting back visits again.. He also said that if I feel more tense or real down to NOT hesitate and to come in before the week is up even .. I hope I dont. cause$$$ !, but I have a health plan that will cover most , but I didnt want to use it all up right away.. wanted to space it out to last longer(lol).. Oh well I just have to keep going.
AS for the urinating(sorry I know its gross), I found that the Remeron had the opposite effect on me.. I was always going... hmmm but I did read somewhere that it can cause problems to go..
I also started taking milk thistle (since yesterday) . It is a detox. for the liver.. I take it for 2 weeks(its quite mild).. then I will wait a bit and take this kit for 2months for a little bit stronger detox..
Sorry to ramble.. Im just not feeling well mentally tonight but I have to keep telling myself it is the WD , just like Iwas coaching everyone else on these posts,,now here I am..
I am trying NOT to anticipate w/d symptoms cause the mind can play tricks and I have a tendencey to worry and feed into my fears... so I have to get back to my cognitive training I learned as well. and brush up on my techniquesI wished I had never put this Remeron in my mouth that day.....
take care
Hang in there gy
MuskyMusky,
>
> My last dose was last Wendneday. When was your last dose? It seems we are very close to the same schedule.
>
> I woke up about 3 last night and was very nauseated. I don't want to get graphic here but I find that I had a hard time urinating on remeron and now that is better. I slept some after going back to bed but I am tired. I try to eat even when I have the nausea. Some anxiety last night but not too bad.
>
> One thing that is hard is the acute hearing and smell I have. I have had this before when cutting doses and also with cutting other meds too. Makes it hard to sleep and eat when things are kind of wired. I just will wait it out. Heavy sponge brain today too. I agree that receptors are not damaged just need to normalize again and maybe produce more and that takes time. I will see if I can see my acupuncturist tomorrow. I need something to help balance me a bit. take care
>
> johnnyj
Posted by johnnyj on June 2, 2006, at 8:29:34
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules, posted by musky on June 1, 2006, at 23:57:48
I believe you are having W/D symptoms for sure. When I went from 7.5 to 3.75 I had some very very bad anxiety and depression but it didn't last that long so hang in there.
I really think we have not been getting much of an AD effect at such low doses. I think 7.5 or less does not help with depression at all, if anything, it makes it worse.
I slept better last night and after getting up once during the night the alarm woke me up. I haven't had that since dropping to zero so I am happy. I am very tired though. The body adjusting just takes a toll. I know things will be better in a few weeks so I just gut it out. Actually, I am not having as bad of a time, except for nausea, as when I cut from 7.5 to 3.75. That was brutal. It is early though so I am cautiously optimistic. Hang in there and just let the feelings wash through you without focusing on them.
johnnyj
Posted by jeninco on June 2, 2006, at 10:58:36
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules » musky, posted by johnnyj on June 2, 2006, at 8:29:34
Musky,
Did you taper beyond the 2 mg? I know when my doctor had me go off zoloft she wanted me to take a little sliver (tic tac sized) every day, every other, every two, etc. I don't know that this would apply with remeron and it's ridiculously long half life, just wondering.
I'm so terrified of going off this medication. I took it ONLY for its sleep-inducing side affects, and even now at the lower dosgae (5 mg), it's not helping.
I know you will do this, as Jules was able to. I'm just hoping t check any day now and see that you are past the bad stuff.
Posted by musky on June 4, 2006, at 0:04:19
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules » musky, posted by johnnyj on June 2, 2006, at 8:29:34
>Hi Thanks johnny
Yesterday was not that great... very down.. but I got through... used all my tools in my little bag to help me feel better.. last night i went to celtic prayer/concert.. it really helped me get in touch with myself again and relaxed me. Had alot of anxiety last night and this morning , but as the day went on i felt better mood wise.Going to see how i feel the next couple days to see if i can wait until my next acupuncture appointment.
some nausea off and on today..
Other than that my sleep has been not that bad the last few days . I just let the insomnia pass and it seemed to have..
I agree , it takes time for body to adjust.. its just that when you are in these moods , thats when my fear comes back of when i crashed and ended up in hospital.. still trying to forget that experience..
Like you say just let the feelings wash through you and ignore and it gets better. I find mental distraction helps the most with anxiety/depressive states...Ifind if i dwell on the negative thoughts then that is when I find myself falling into the negative self fulfilled prophesies stuff and thats not good. So one has to stay focused and push through those times.
Sounds like you are managing so far..
Good luck
stay posting
Musky
I believe you are having W/D symptoms for sure. When I went from 7.5 to 3.75 I had some very very bad anxiety and depression but it didn't last that long so hang in there.
>
> I really think we have not been getting much of an AD effect at such low doses. I think 7.5 or less does not help with depression at all, if anything, it makes it worse.
>
> I slept better last night and after getting up once during the night the alarm woke me up. I haven't had that since dropping to zero so I am happy. I am very tired though. The body adjusting just takes a toll. I know things will be better in a few weeks so I just gut it out. Actually, I am not having as bad of a time, except for nausea, as when I cut from 7.5 to 3.75. That was brutal. It is early though so I am cautiously optimistic. Hang in there and just let the feelings wash through you without focusing on them.
>
> johnnyj
Posted by musky on June 4, 2006, at 0:17:12
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules, posted by jeninco on June 2, 2006, at 10:58:36
> jenico
I went from 2mg to zero.. I was on the 2mg(roughly speaking) for 4months.. I thought about the sliver bit thing , then decided to just go for it after being on the little amount of 2mg.
It has been 10 days since I took my last Remeron.
the first 5days ok, then the mood stuff started. Some physical stuff like insomnia but it has been better now the last few nights. So far no flu like symptoms(which i had expected), but some nausea and dizzyness/tingly, then clouded brain stuff off and on this week. But manageable. What has started though more than anything is this mood stuff. Anxiety in A.M. also some depressive modes.. been going to acupuncuture and was told to go now once a week since Im completely off. my acupuncturist told me more often now and see how it goes to help with this w/d.
One positive thing is that I wake up in the mornings faster now.. like clearer head and not so slow movements.. before I would take forever to get myself out the door to work.. so at least that has improved.. I knew it was this drug.
Dont be scared to go off of this yourself..just believe and stay focused.. I keep thinking of jules that has done it successfully, and he seems to have a good attitude. Again everyone is different and also males and females biochemistry.
Also i have just started a mild detox with milk thistle.. It will last about 3 weeks, then I wait a bit and I will do more of a formal detox about a month after i build up from this one..
I almost forgot,,, alot of headaches I got almost right after quitting but since the other day and after acupunture they have settled down somewhat. Havent had to take anything yet for them... I am exercising 2x per week too. that helps with stress.
Thanks for the confidence in me... I need it.
Oh yah, taking remeron just for sleep isnt the best idea... there are many many SAFE NATURAL alternattives to getting a good nights sleep..
Good luck
Musky
usky,
>
> Did you taper beyond the 2 mg? I know when my doctor had me go off zoloft she wanted me to take a little sliver (tic tac sized) every day, every other, every two, etc. I don't know that this would apply with remeron and it's ridiculously long half life, just wondering.
>
> I'm so terrified of going off this medication. I took it ONLY for its sleep-inducing side affects, and even now at the lower dosgae (5 mg), it's not helping.
>
> I know you will do this, as Jules was able to. I'm just hoping t check any day now and see that you are past the bad stuff.
Posted by jeninco on June 11, 2006, at 10:57:48
In reply to Re: Remeron Jules, posted by musky on June 4, 2006, at 0:17:12
Musky,
I have tried everything OTC for sleep. I spent so much money at the health food store and time and time again, nothing worked. That was why my dr put me on remeron in desperation to get some sleep.
It's stopped working for the most part at the lower dosages, so I'm mainly just taking it at 3.75 to keep withdrawal symptoms from coming on. Not sure where to go from here. I know you say lack of sleep won't kill you, but I don't know. My body can be very persistent and go for days with 2-3 hours. My dr has even suggested that maybe I'm having manic episodes but I don't think so.
Posted by musky on June 11, 2006, at 23:29:00
In reply to Re: Remeron Musky, posted by jeninco on June 11, 2006, at 10:57:48
> Hi jenico:
You need to really try to keep in your mind calm thoughts. the worse thing that we can do with not being able to sleep is to stress about it and TRY too hard to sleep... Have you tried relaxation tapes before bed??? a hot bath ? herbal relaxing teas?n or a nice swim in the evenings if you swim. ALL these things slow down the mind to prepare us for sleep. I know that when I was on the lower doses of remeron i was more sleepy than the higher doses.. that doesnt seem to be the problem here for you.. Try these suggestions and also check into acupuncture It really helped my sleep .. and helped me cope with w/d... dont be scared to come off of it totally... just work one day at a time.. and again keep calm...
Good luck
The body does kick back into sink after time , even when you are soo tired just try to have a no care attitude.. it really helps coping.Musky
Musky,
>
> I have tried everything OTC for sleep. I spent so much money at the health food store and time and time again, nothing worked. That was why my dr put me on remeron in desperation to get some sleep.
>
> It's stopped working for the most part at the lower dosages, so I'm mainly just taking it at 3.75 to keep withdrawal symptoms from coming on. Not sure where to go from here. I know you say lack of sleep won't kill you, but I don't know. My body can be very persistent and go for days with 2-3 hours. My dr has even suggested that maybe I'm having manic episodes but I don't think so.
This is the end of the thread.
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