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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by helpme on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:35
...and now- caffeine. I read in a book once that caffeine causes or makes depression worse. But I read other stuff that says it is a mood brightener when used moderately. Any observations? Thanks.
Posted by JLx on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:36
In reply to caffeine and depression, posted by helpme on July 10, 2006, at 10:48:51
> ...and now- caffeine. I read in a book once that caffeine causes or makes depression worse. But I read other stuff that says it is a mood brightener when used moderately. Any observations? Thanks
Caffeine makes depression worse for me. Perhaps because it stresses the adrenals?
JL
Posted by dessbee on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:36
In reply to caffeine and depression, posted by helpme on July 10, 2006, at 10:48:51
I beleive non-caffeine diet can reduce stress since caffeine can increase cortisol levels. If you take caffeine it should preferably be in the morning when cortisol is normally high. That way you will also avoid any sleep disturbance at night.
Non-caffeine diet is most important for anxiety disorders, especially panic attacks.
Posted by nolvas on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:36
In reply to Re: caffeine and depression, posted by dessbee on July 10, 2006, at 15:37:51
The reason caffeine is bad for anxious people is that the caffeine molecule is similar enough to adenine to fit into adenosine receptors but is not similar enough to stimulate those receptors. So the main action of caffeine is to block adenosine receptors. So Caffeine blocks adenosine reception so you feel alert. It injects adrenaline into the system to give you a boost and make you feel alert.
Sources >
Posted by nolvas on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:36
In reply to Re: caffeine and depression, posted by nolvas on July 10, 2006, at 16:41:57
"The problem with caffeine is the longer-term effects, which tend to spiral. For example, once the adrenaline wears off, you face fatigue and depression. So what are you going to do? You take more caffeine to get the adrenaline going again. As you might imagine, having your body in a state of emergency all day long isn't very healthy, and it also makes you jumpy and irritable."
Posted by helpme on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:36
In reply to Re: caffeine and depression, posted by nolvas on July 10, 2006, at 16:42:57
All very interesting comments, and this one especially enlightening. Thank you.> "The problem with caffeine is the longer-term effects, which tend to spiral. For example, once the adrenaline wears off, you face fatigue and depression. So what are you going to do? You take more caffeine to get the adrenaline going again. As you might imagine, having your body in a state of emergency all day long isn't very healthy, and it also makes you jumpy and irritable."
Posted by linkadge on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:36
In reply to Re: caffeine and depression, posted by helpme on July 10, 2006, at 17:01:04
Coffee intake is associated with a reduced risk of suicide. What part caffiene plays in this connection is unclear.
Caffiene promotes neurogenesis. I will look for that study. It basically showed that a dose of caffiene extened the length of growth cones (?), or perhaps it was a different neural structure.
Caffiene is protective against parkinsons. Which theoretically could slow certain forms of depression, whose origin is based upon a compromised dopaminergic system.
Pertaining to the antidepressant properties of adenosine antagonists like caffiene:http://biopsychiatry.com/adenant.htm
I think it depends on the person. I think that if your anxiety is under control and you're well nourished, then caffine could have a positive effect on depression. If your anxiety is out of controll, and you're not eating well, then a stimulant is likely going to make things worse.
Linkadge
Posted by dessbee on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:36
In reply to caffeine and depression, posted by helpme on July 10, 2006, at 10:48:51
Discussing caffeine is kind of complicated since coffee contains more substances like anti-oxidants. I read in my daily paper about a study on coffee drinking and diabetes. It showed that coffee reduces the risk of diabetes. The interesting thing was that decaffed coffe reduces the risk much more. So in a way caffeine blocks other beneficial substances in coffee.
The reason is probably because caffeine will increase blood sugar and consequently stress beta-cells in the pancreas.
Posted by Darwin on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:36
In reply to caffeine and depression, posted by helpme on July 10, 2006, at 10:48:51
> ...and now- caffeine. I read in a book once that caffeine causes or makes depression worse. But I read other stuff that says it is a mood brightener when used moderately. Any observations? Thanks.
For some people (like me), coffee plus sugar is a bad combination. My guess is that coffee plus sugar stimulates excessive insulin secretion resulting in low blood sugar (reactive hypoglycemia).
Coffee without sugar (or with artifical sweetner) does not bother me and does seem to be a mild mood brightener.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:37
In reply to Re: caffeine and depression, posted by dessbee on July 11, 2006, at 8:51:50
What annoys me about studies like this are that the researchers conclude coffee offers protection against diabetes, instead of offering an association. The association is that people who drink coffee tend to get less diabetes. Might it be that people who are affected in a bad way by coffee are in fact in poorer health? Might the people who are in worse health tend to avoid coffee since that makes them feel worse? And might the people who feel great from drinking coffee be in great health?
In my opinion, caffeine is bad. It's a temporary fix for depression, which in smaller amounts can be beneficial as a whole. However, I think that the people who avoid caffeine are in worse health TO BEGIN WITH and therefore are at higher risk for diabetes. The people who are able to drink coffee tend to just be healthier, I think. I don't really understand how coffee could possibly have any beneficial effect on blood sugar levels. If anything, from a metabolic standpoint, it's a major stressor on blood sugar levels!
Hope my post was clear. A summary of my opinion is that any amount of caffeine for some people leads toward depression, after it wears off.
> Discussing caffeine is kind of complicated since coffee contains more substances like anti-oxidants. I read in my daily paper about a study on coffee drinking and diabetes. It showed that coffee reduces the risk of diabetes. The interesting thing was that decaffed coffe reduces the risk much more. So in a way caffeine blocks other beneficial substances in coffee.
> The reason is probably because caffeine will increase blood sugar and consequently stress beta-cells in the pancreas.
>
Posted by helpme on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:37
In reply to Re: caffeine and depression, posted by Mistermindmasta on July 13, 2006, at 16:03:16
You really hammer a good point- I was wondering why my blood glucose levels seem to be inching up even though I almost always avoid sweets and rarely eat white flour, potatoes, etc. I do have a long term coffee problem though. It would make sense that coffee/stress hormones/the whole syndrome would affect blood glucose. It seems complicated. I also noticed coffee hurts my stomache way worse than any alcohol ever did, by the way. That is the only reason I am able to be cutting back now- body's will, I guess.
> What annoys me about studies like this are that the researchers conclude coffee offers protection against diabetes, instead of offering an association. The association is that people who drink coffee tend to get less diabetes. Might it be that people who are affected in a bad way by coffee are in fact in poorer health? Might the people who are in worse health tend to avoid coffee since that makes them feel worse? And might the people who feel great from drinking coffee be in great health?
>
> In my opinion, caffeine is bad. It's a temporary fix for depression, which in smaller amounts can be beneficial as a whole. However, I think that the people who avoid caffeine are in worse health TO BEGIN WITH and therefore are at higher risk for diabetes. The people who are able to drink coffee tend to just be healthier, I think. I don't really understand how coffee could possibly have any beneficial effect on blood sugar levels. If anything, from a metabolic standpoint, it's a major stressor on blood sugar levels!
>
> Hope my post was clear. A summary of my opinion is that any amount of caffeine for some people leads toward depression, after it wears off.
>
> > Discussing caffeine is kind of complicated since coffee contains more substances like anti-oxidants. I read in my daily paper about a study on coffee drinking and diabetes. It showed that coffee reduces the risk of diabetes. The interesting thing was that decaffed coffe reduces the risk much more. So in a way caffeine blocks other beneficial substances in coffee.
> > The reason is probably because caffeine will increase blood sugar and consequently stress beta-cells in the pancreas.
> >
>
>
Posted by dessbee on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:37
In reply to Re: caffeine and depression, posted by Mistermindmasta on July 13, 2006, at 16:03:16
I am not sure you understood my point correctly.
The study showed that decaffed coffee (no caffeine) protected against diabetes. Regular coffe only gave moderate protection. The reason is probably because bioflavonoids in coffee protects beta-cells and caffeine stresses beta-cells.
The study really complies with your oppinion that caffeine is bad.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on July 26, 2006, at 7:54:37
In reply to Re: caffeine is bad » Mistermindmasta, posted by dessbee on July 14, 2006, at 5:52:26
Yeah, I understood your point correctly, I was just running off ranting about a related topic.
I've read a bunch of studies showing that coffee is good for diabetes, and I still just have a really hard time believing the researchers reasoning.Basically, I'm just questioning the validity of the science. Does decaf coffee REALLY protect against diabetes? Or is it that people who drink decaf are likely to be healthier and general? In that case, the decaf doesn't protect, it's the persons lifestyle that protects, which also is the reason they drink decaf in the first place.
To put it another way, which came first, the chicken or the egg? The researchers imply that decaf coffee protects against diabetes because of the antioxidants; that idea may be misleading because it might be the person's lifestyle that is protective, not the flavenoids.
I am frustrated when scientists do a study and come to a conclusion without really looking into the confounding factors and allowing for the possibility of an erroneous association.
> I am not sure you understood my point correctly.
>
> The study showed that decaffed coffee (no caffeine) protected against diabetes. Regular coffe only gave moderate protection. The reason is probably because bioflavonoids in coffee protects beta-cells and caffeine stresses beta-cells.
>
> The study really complies with your oppinion that caffeine is bad.
Posted by Medric on August 21, 2006, at 18:01:47
In reply to Re: caffeine is bad, posted by Mistermindmasta on July 18, 2006, at 22:31:56
Caffine will increase depression based on anxiety, but will reduce genetic depression as it stimulates certain areas of the brain. Depression based on anxiety is from the anxiety itself whereas genetic depression is a result of decreased brain function.
This is also helpful: http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=6686
Posted by Sebastian on November 10, 2006, at 15:46:19
In reply to caffeine and depression, posted by helpme on July 10, 2006, at 10:48:51
It brightenes my mood all day long. I drink tons of caffine from the minute I get up untill I fall asleep. If I don't get enough caffine or any I feel bad, unhappy, unenergetic and don't function.
Posted by Sebastian on November 10, 2006, at 15:55:59
In reply to Re: caffeine and depression, posted by linkadge on July 10, 2006, at 20:01:04
Caffine is supposed to make you easyer to get along with, and more easy going, more accepting.
Posted by Sebastian on November 10, 2006, at 15:57:52
In reply to Re: caffeine and depression, posted by dessbee on July 11, 2006, at 8:51:50
If caffine raises blood sugar why is it good for diabities?
Posted by bulletproofair on January 6, 2007, at 2:05:29
In reply to Re: caffeine and depression » dessbee, posted by Sebastian on November 10, 2006, at 15:57:52
I think what people are trying to say here is that DECAF coffee is good for anyone (including diabetics) due to the antioxidants present in the coffee mixture itself.
First off, I am wondering what your caffeine sources are??? Only coffee, or do you include soda pop as well??
I was diagnosed YEARS ago with anxiety disorder. So I've been on xanax for about 4 or 5 years now. I know that's not as long as some, but its a rather long time. At one point in my life, about 3.5 years ago, I became depressed and was prescribed many different antidepressants including effexor, zoloft, and lexapro (all i can think of off the top of my head). Lexapro, 10mgs a day worked for me the best and I took it for about 6 months only. I got over the depression quickly. I'm just giving you my background so I can build some credibility with you all.
My first recommendation, DESSBEE, and all others who have caffeine addictions, is to reduce your caffeine intake starting sooner than later. if you normally have a set amount of caffeine per day, or whether that amount varies or not, take the time to grab a little notepad, or even use your cell phone and keep a memo, of how many mgs of caffeine you consume in the next few days.
Take the caffeine mgs and divide them by the amount of days you kept track of your caffeine intake. (seriously, if you want help, you gotta do this). That is gonna be your average amount of mgs of caffeine you consume a day. After this, you need to start decreasing, but just do it slowly.
The first day you decide to make the change for the better, take your average amount you calculated, and consume no more than that amount the first day of your "treatment."
You can do this for maybe 2 days. The 3rd day, I recommend you reduce the amount 160 mgs. I'm not kidding around either. I'm sure, if you are seriously addicted and need caffeine to make it through the day, you are consuming THOUSANDS of mgs of caffeine a day. 160mgs isn't gonna kill you...Day 4 next day decrease 175mgs. Consume the same mgs Day 5 as you did Day 4.
Day 6, this is where you gotta start getting your head together, and reduce your caffeine intake 250-300mgs. Once again, intake day 6 mgs on day 7 too.
Thats ONE WHOLE WEEK of treatment. Doing good, eh?
Starting on Day 8, your second week, you need to find another supplement of energy! There are all kinds of natural herbs out there that give you energy that have hardly any side effect, and have nowhere near the side effects of caffeine. I'm talking like Sobe Energy Drinks. You'll find them in gas stations for like 2.29 or so. SOBE is what you need to go for. Look for the ingredient TAURINE, along with all the B vitamins (B-12, B-6, B-etc..) and decrease caffeine intake 200 mgs.
With this energy supplement from the SOBE drink, you'll feel pretty energized, and they have HARDLY ANY CAFFEINE in them compared to a 20 oz. MT DEW. And will give you more energy due to the natural herbal extracts found in them. The SOBE drink I LOVE the most is the white can with the Superman S on it. And theres a black and gold Sobe that works wonders too.
After this, comes Day 9. If you've followed my directions up to day 9, and have discovered Sobe energy drinks, you are in luck my friend, because you can start dropping caffiene by at least 300mgs every couple of days. Just don't drink anymore than 2 of the SOBE energy drinks a day, and you'll feel AMAZINGLY upped and ready to go.
The advantage of detoxing from caffeine is that when you actually consume it, it will do something for you as opposed to maintain. Just like my former addiction to heroin (currently a recovering addict!! 3 months sober and i feel great!)...with usage comes tolerance, with tolerance comes the requirement of more and more and more until you're using to maintain, not to get "energy" in your case.
As I may have mentioned before, there are many herbal supplements that increase energy!! Take a multivitamin EVERY DAY, a B-Complex EVERY DAY, drink plenty of H20, and exercise to detox. GO to you local GNC/healthfood store and see about Taurine supplements, possibly Yohimbe (also increases sex drive like you wouldn't believe...), and Yerba Mate. For real on all those I just listed!!
Caffeine is not good for you body in the amounts I'm assuming you are consuming, its a vasoconstrictor and will permanently constrict your arteries and veins, causing high blood pressure and probably worse...seriously, it could lead to a heart attack, even if you were to quit today, 4 years down the road you could have one while taking a shower because of the toll it my have taken on your body. Just follow my plan, and you'll also lose weight!!
Caffeine gives you the jitters, inability to concentrate, have you pissing all the time, and forces you to have anxiety as well, and if you already have anxiety, you are VERY prone to becoming depressed simply because the ill-effect it has on your brain and the reduction of dopamine that is naturally produced.
Sorry about the story I wrote, but I know if you read every bit of this, you are on the path to a successful recovery. Caffeine is a drug. It is addictive. Legality doesn't mean a thing...
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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