![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 175. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by marjorie on January 4, 2005, at 12:50:52
Hi -- I am extremely new to this, and in fact, I still can't even really believe I'm doing this. Part of me still doesn't really want to admit that I have a problem with alcohol. But the rational part of my brain knows that I do and that it's not good for me and that I need to take steps to do something about it.
I stumbled on this board by accident when I was still toying with the idea of accepting that I have a problem, and in reading some of the posts I came across, it hit me pretty hard that when some of you describe yourselves and the way you drink and what you are going through, you are describing me. That was pretty hard to dismiss. I think it really helped me to be able to be an "outside observer" and read about real people who are having some of the same real problems that I am having and I finally came to the conclusion that if you have found the strength to do something about it, then I can too.
Therefore, I want to post here myself and say thank you to those of you who have already helped me without even knowing it. I would very much like to become part of this community and continue to benefit from your support and experience and hopefully be able to provide some of it myself at some point.
I am a 32 year old wife and mother and a secret drinker. Over the course of the last few years I have gone from being a "social" drinker, to being pretty much dependent on drinking every day. I recognize now that it started out as a way to numb myself to stressful things that were going on in my life, but then everything became an excuse to drink. Drink because I'm happy, drink because I'm unhappy, drink because I'm stressed, drink because I'm with a group, drink because I'm alone, etc. There was no end in sight.
I can tell that this is beginning to have an effect on both my physical and mental health, as well as being quite expensive. I have managed to keep my drinking a secret so I don't want to depend on my friends and family for support, mainly because I'm embarassed.
Today is Day 3 for me, and so far, I feel pretty good. I have had some moments that have been scary, and one thing I would like to know is whether or not some of the symptoms I have been having are caused by alcohol withdrawal or something else. The reason I ask is that I am surrounded by people who have the flu, and I don't know if I'm getting it too. I don't really think so though, because my symptoms are mostly different from theirs.
Thankfully, I have not yet craved a drink. In fact, the thought of drinking turns me off right now. I have had steady headaches, but they are relieved by ipubrofen. I have had what I imagine must be "hot flashes", where all of a sudden I feel like I'm going to catch on fire. I sweat and become short of breath when this happens. I go stand under the fan and it usually goes away in ten or fifteen minutes. I have had insomnia, but I had that before. I don't have the bladder and kidney discomfort that I used to have all the time. I do find that I have more frequent bowel movements. I have moments of irritability, but I had those before. One time, late yesterday, Day 2, I had an extremely dizzy spell that scared me, but it probably lasted only a minute or so.
Is any of this anything to be alarmed about, or is it all par for the course? What else can I expect? What should worry me and what shouldn't? What are some of the things that I can do when these things happen? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
I have some more of my story to share and some more questions I would like to ask, but I think I'll stop for now since this is already so long and see what kind of response, if any, I get. Thank you for reading all of this, and again, any help at all would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Marjorie
Posted by partlycloudy on January 4, 2005, at 14:55:31
In reply to NEW -?s help re: alcohol withdrawal (long,sorry), posted by marjorie on January 4, 2005, at 12:50:52
Welcome, Marjorie, and thanks for joining the fray here. I self-detoxed after heavy daily drinking for about 20 years, and experienced the same symptoms you describe. They lasted about 2 weeks. Make sure you're giving your body the nutrients it needs, and sleep as much as you can. Just like having the flu, right? The danger in self detox is in experiencing seizures. If you'd ever had one before, then the risk is higher. Of course I found this out AFTER I had dried out on my own at home, but I did not have any seizures. If you're at all uncertain about what you're experiencing, then call your doctor and detox under her supervision.
It's a very good thing you're doing, Marjorie. We are all here to support each other, so please post whenever and whatever. Nothing is insignificant. I know what you are talking about in being a secret drinker, and also in keeping it from your family. I still have mixed feelings about saying anything to them about my being an alcoholic - you want support, and it's not always what they are able to give you. AA is where many people find that support.
Tell us how you're doing, OK? If you want to talk to me about anything, feel free to Babblemail me, or you can email me directly at partlycloudy@gmail.com
Posted by AuntieMel on January 4, 2005, at 16:02:07
In reply to NEW -?s help re: alcohol withdrawal (long,sorry), posted by marjorie on January 4, 2005, at 12:50:52
Part of the problem is sugar withdrawal, too. Orange juice is recommended to relieve those symptoms. I used dark chocolate. Lots of very, very dark chocolate.
You will also need extra vitamen B12 and Folic acid. About twice the RDA.
You will need some kind of support system. Are you sure your family doesn't know? More times than not they know something is wrong, even if they don't know what it is. But if you don't think you are ready to talk to them then you could shop AA groups to find one that fits you, Since you don't want to tell family, get a sponsor ASAP - someone you can call if you get into difficulty.
And you can email me - though I don't check mine as often as PC does.
AuntieMel, also at gmail.com
Posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2005, at 19:14:38
In reply to Re: NEW -?s help re: alcohol withdrawal (long,sor, posted by AuntieMel on January 4, 2005, at 16:02:07
Yup, seizures can be an issue. If you go see your family Dr and tell him what you are doing he should give you a low dose of Benzodiazapines which should prevent that happening.
You probably only need to worry if you were verry heavily drinking for quite a while though.
Good on you for recognising the problem and taking steps to doing something about it :-)
Posted by marjorie on January 6, 2005, at 9:03:50
In reply to NEW -?s help re: alcohol withdrawal (long,sorry), posted by marjorie on January 4, 2005, at 12:50:52
I want to personally thank each of you for responding to my post. I think I was much less confident than I sounded when I wrote it. In fact, the reason I haven't been back sooner is that later that same day (Day 3), I fell off the wagon. I have been pretty disgusted with myself for not even being able to go three lousy days without a drink! I knew it wouldn't be easy, but I didn't think I would cave that quickly.
However, I am back to trying to look at the bright side, and I do believe there is one. For one thing, I didn't drink anywhere near as much as I normally would -- probably only had about 30%-35% as much as usual. Also, I think it's a step in the right direction that I was extremely conscious and aware of every swallow I took -- I didn't just mindlessly down drink after drink. I also made the conscious decision to stop when I did, after only a few drinks. That's something I haven't done in a very long time. Usually, once I get started, I don't even think about stopping. So while I am certainly not making excuses for myself, at least I am not allowing my first backslide to cause me to throw in the towel.
Since that one time, I've been okay again. Circumstances will prevent me from being tempted to drink tonight, so tomorrow will be my new Day 3. Unfortunately, it will also be the start of the weekend, so that will be hard for me, since that's when I always really want to drink. I would be interested in any tips or advice any of you could share with me that help you get through the weekends (or whatever your trickiest times are).
Since I started this though, I have noticed one weird thing happening that I haven't heard anyone else mention, and I would like to know if anyone else has had this happen: (Sorry, this is a little gross. Skip this part if that bothers you.) Frequently, I will start out by coughing, and then I'll have almost a gag reflex where I almost spit up a little. This happens when I haven't had anything to drink for a few days. Anyone familiar with this?
I really want to express how much it helps to be able to talk (write) with other people (you) about this whole situation. I feel very comfortable here, very supported and very much not alone! I am actually surprised at how much comfort I take in knowing that this is a resource for me. It is more helpful than anything else has been. I think maybe I can really do this this time. I feel protected and strengthened by the anonymity and yet closeness I feel so far with each of you. I am touched that virtual strangers would be willing to take the time to help me with this problem simply by virtue of having been through it themselves. It means a great deal to me.
On an individual basis:
partlycloudy -- Thank you for responding to my post so quickly. That was the first real outside validation I got that what I was doing was the right thing, and that I would be able to accomplish it if I committed myself to it. I appreciate your many reassuring words, particularly "Nothing is insignificant". That really struck a cord with me, because I do question frequently whether something I am thinking or feeling is insignificant or not. It was almost as though you read my mind. I needed to hear that. On another note, I am afraid that in my case, keeping this from my family is more about my embarassment and shame than it is a reflection on them. I believe that they would be supportive, and the time may come when I chose to share it with them. I very much appreciate your offer to email, and I may take you up on that too. Finally, I just want to say how very impressed I am that you were able to self detox after so many years of daily heavy drinking. I hope to draw strength from your example. I am glad to hear that your symptoms only lasted a few weeks. I truly admire the dedication and willpower that took. Please let me know of anything in particular that helped you through the rough patches that you might be willing to share, and also whether you have any advice on making sure I get the right nutrients. Thanks again for your kind and reassuring sentiments.
AuntieMel -- Thank you also for your helpful insights. I had not considered the sugar withdrawal aspect. Somehow drinking never seemed to have much to do with sugar, but I guess it does. I usually drink orange juice anyway, but I will up the amount and see if that helps. I must admit, when I first read the chocolate part, I thought, "Well, that won't help me. I'm not much of a chocolate eater." Then, last night, I had a bit if a craving for a drink, and my eyes fell on a box of Godiva chocolate someone gave me for Christmas. I wasn't even planning to open it, but I remembered what you said, and so on an impulse, I had a piece. Then I had one more. Then, remarkably, the craving was gone. I never, ever would have believed it! Somehow, that did work. So not only did you teach me that trick, you also taught me never to dismiss any advice out of hand when it comes to this! Also, I checked the B-Complex vitamin that I take and it does contain B12, so I doubled my dosage of that. Do you think that's enough, or should I try to get one that is B12 only? I still have to get the folic acid. Finally, as I said, I am not yet ready to go either the family or the AA route, but I know that you are right about needing to have someone I can depend on if I get in trouble. I will give that some thought. Thanks again for your help, and please keep it coming!
alexandra_k -- Thank you also for your words or advice and encouragement. Your message came at a time when I was feeling discouraged and needed to be picked up. I'm not sure I was drinking long enough to have to worry about seizures. I wish I knew what they felt like coming on so I could recognize one. Is it like an epileptic seizure? Also, although my Dr does not know about this, he prescribed clonazepam months ago to help me sleep at night when I was going through a particularly rough time. I only took a little of it and have a good bit left over. I've seen a few snippets about using that to help with self detox, but I'm not really sure how that would work. I am not familiar with benzodiazapines, but I will see what I can find out. Thanks again for your help, and any advice will always be appreciated.
Thank you all again for your continued support and guidance. With your help, I am truly committed to taking this one day at a time and giving it my all.
Marjorie
Posted by partlycloudy on January 6, 2005, at 12:47:25
In reply to partlycloudy, AuntieMel, alexandra k -- Thanks..., posted by marjorie on January 6, 2005, at 9:03:50
> Since that one time, I've been okay again. Circumstances will prevent me from being tempted to drink tonight, so tomorrow will be my new Day 3. Unfortunately, it will also be the start of the weekend, so that will be hard for me, since that's when I always really want to drink. I would be interested in any tips or advice any of you could share with me that help you get through the weekends (or whatever your trickiest times are).
I have usually planned my drinking for when I get home from work - which route to drive home that will take me past a store, where to put the bag, the whole routine. And when I get in the front door, the first priority is to get the supplies stashed and a glass filled and disguised if needed. My therapist suggested I disrupt my routine by driving home along a inconvenient route; and when I got home to change the routine there, too. So I try to do something different - like a household chore - to get me out of the behavioural pattern. The first time I did this I was a nervous wreck. My hands shook for about an hour after I got home. But it worked. I washed the kitchen floor, then got changed, lit a nice candle, put my favourite music on the stereo, and sat down with a magazine. It really works.
I'm so touched by your post, Marjorie; and I know that all the other babblers here wish you success in this difficult task.
partlycloudy
Posted by AuntieMel on January 7, 2005, at 10:21:40
In reply to partlycloudy, AuntieMel, alexandra k -- Thanks..., posted by marjorie on January 6, 2005, at 9:03:50
Dr. Phil (yea, I know, but this bit of advice made sense) says that you never get rid of a bad habit. You replace it with a better habit.
So, when the urge hits - don't just gut through it. Do something else, preferably something that requires some physical activity. Take a walk, garden, scrub the grout with a toothbrush (my personal favorite) - anything that gets you moving and is useful. Replace bad feelings (I'm just a useless drunk) with good ones (my that floor looks great)
Keep in mind, though, that a key trait of alkies is dishonesty - and a key to recovery is honesty. This doesn't mean that you have tell the world, but hiding it from your husband really only makes you feel worse - which can sabotage the whole thing. And the kids? Trust me, unless they are very, very young (under 2 or 3) they know something is wrong - they just may not have put a name to it.
Since you are so good at (aren't we all??) subterfuge, use those skills to hide an AA blue book. Instead of sneaking a drink, sneak a read. The first 5 chapters, over and over.
Ok, nagging is over. Enjoy the weekend. I'll try to check in from time to time.
Posted by marjorie on January 8, 2005, at 2:48:52
In reply to Re: tips for getting through the weekend., posted by AuntieMel on January 7, 2005, at 10:21:40
AuntieMel - You're right about staying busy when the cravings strike. That worked for me to take my mind off eating when I was losing weight after my pregnancy. It's a little tougher with this though, but it's definitely good advice.
I guess I didn't clarify my "dishonesty" regarding my family clearly enough. My husband and I have talked about this, and he is definitely aware that I am trying to stop drinking. I recognize that you are right about the drinking problems revolving around dishonesty and the recovery being dependent upon honesty, which is why I am determined to be completely honest with what I post here. So in the spirit of honesty, I must say that while my husband is aware that I am trying to stop drinking, he does not know everything, such as how bad the problem had gotten. That said though, he is supportive of my efforts and would not intentionally do anything to undermine me. He himself does not intend to stop drinking, which is fine with me, because he doesn't have a problem. I believe that he would stop if I asked him to, but I'm not going to. And I only have one child who is still a baby, so my immediate family is not being kept in the dark about what I am doing now. I was referring more to my extended family (all of whom live nearby and spend a lot of time with us) that I don't intend to share my struggle with at this time.
I am not familiar with the AA blue book. I would be interested in reading it. Where does one acquire one?
Thanks again for your advice and for checking in.
Posted by partlycloudy on January 8, 2005, at 5:05:16
In reply to Re: tips for getting through the weekend., posted by marjorie on January 8, 2005, at 2:48:52
> I am not familiar with the AA blue book. I would be interested in reading it. Where does one acquire one?
>
>
When I went to a local AA meeting last month, I was extremely upset , crying, and could not look anyone in the eye without falling apart again. At the end of the meeting I was given a blue book and a list of women member's first names and phone numbers to call if I needed to. They had quietly passed this piece of paper around the room during the meeting. The book is available for purchase at most meetings (in my case some folks bought it for me).I think you can buy it on the AA website, too.
Posted by AuntieMel on January 8, 2005, at 21:04:33
In reply to Re: tips for getting through the weekend., posted by marjorie on January 8, 2005, at 2:48:52
Well, there is sure no reason to tell the extended family. My mother-in-law still doesn't know about my problem, or my depression, or my hospital stay, or my four months medical leave. And I don't see any reason to tell her either.
I didn't ask my hubby to quit either, but I can sure tell you that for the first few months it is probably necessary for you to have none at all in the house. Why purposely invite temptation?
Posted by Lee05 on January 13, 2005, at 11:57:22
In reply to Re: tips for getting through the weekend., posted by AuntieMel on January 8, 2005, at 21:04:33
Hi all,
I'm new to this whole forum thing so if I'm not doing something right please let me know. I've been reading your postings and seeing so much of myself in all of you--I just wanted to let you know how the honesty and vulnerability in your postings have helped me today. I've been abusing alcohol most of my adult life (over 20 years now), have tried to stop before unsuccessfully, and am now in day 9 of latest (and hopefully last) attempt. The first few days were really hard, and even now I'm feeling like garbage physically but (gratefully) still managing to stay sober.
One day at a time, yes? Thanks to you all for helping me through this one day :)
Posted by partlycloudy on January 13, 2005, at 12:01:13
In reply to Trying again, posted by Lee05 on January 13, 2005, at 11:57:22
Welcome, Lee. Feel free to share and wine - darn it! I mean WHINE - with the rest of us.
partlycloudy of the bad pun
Posted by Lee05 on January 13, 2005, at 12:42:30
In reply to Re: Trying again » Lee05, posted by partlycloudy on January 13, 2005, at 12:01:13
> Welcome, Lee. Feel free to share and wine - darn it! I mean WHINE - with the rest of us.
> partlycloudy of the bad pun
Thanks for the welcome. As I said, not my first attempt at sobriety, but definitely my first attempt at reaching out for any kind of support with it. Always tried to do it on my own before because I was so embarassed. So thanks again--very much appreciated.Lee
Posted by antigua on January 13, 2005, at 14:02:04
In reply to Trying again, posted by Lee05 on January 13, 2005, at 11:57:22
I second partlycloudy's welcome...
Talk to us. We are good listeners.
What's different this time?
antigua
Posted by AuntieMel on January 13, 2005, at 14:18:13
In reply to Re: Trying again, posted by Lee05 on January 13, 2005, at 12:42:30
i think i can, i think i can, i think i can, i think i can, i think i can, i think i can, i think i can, i think i can,
I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can,
I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN,
I KNOW I CAN.
Go, choo choo, GO
So what is there to be embarassed about? That you're not perfect? That you're a pickle? Can that possible compare to the embarrasment of being a drunken jerk?
Have you seen "28 Days" - a humorous (hysterical in my book) look at getting clean - and how to ask for help.
Posted by Lee05 on January 13, 2005, at 15:34:07
In reply to Ok, little choo choo » Lee05, posted by AuntieMel on January 13, 2005, at 14:18:13
> i think i can, i think i can, i think i can, i think i can, i think i can, i think i can, i think i can, i think i can,
>
> I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can, I Think I Can,
>
> I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN, I THINK I CAN,
>
> I KNOW I CAN.
>
> Go, choo choo, GO
>
> So what is there to be embarassed about? That you're not perfect? That you're a pickle? Can that possible compare to the embarrasment of being a drunken jerk?
>
> Have you seen "28 Days" - a humorous (hysterical in my book) look at getting clean - and how to ask for help.
I'm embarassed because I spent a good portion of my life judging my dad for not being able to lick this disease--and look at me now. Talk about karma.Antigua, the only thing that's different this time is that I've stopped calling this "a bit of a problem with alcohol" and for the first time said out loud that I'm an alcoholic and I need help to stop. That was to my boyfriend--I figured he'd either be supportive or leave (he didn't leave, bless him).
And then there's you guys--in one afternoon, you've already made me feel like it's OK to talk about it. I'm know I don't have to tell any of you how good that feels.
Yes, I did see 28 days--I loved it. I think I might just go rent it again.
Thanks much,
Lee
Posted by partlycloudy on January 13, 2005, at 16:35:15
In reply to Ok, little choo choo » Lee05, posted by AuntieMel on January 13, 2005, at 14:18:13
> So what is there to be embarassed about? That you're not perfect? That you're a pickle?
I always said that my dad worked on the embalming bit before he died. OMG, that is gross - but it's true! He was swilling beer when he was in the hospital, dying.
Posted by Lee05 on January 15, 2005, at 13:38:08
In reply to Ok, little choo choo » Lee05, posted by AuntieMel on January 13, 2005, at 14:18:13
I was looking into AA meetings (I found a couple in my neighbourhood that I could go to) and would be interested in hearing your opinions on the meetings. Have you found them helpful or not so much--any advice?
Thanks,
Lee
Posted by Lee05 on January 15, 2005, at 14:11:52
In reply to Re: tips for getting through the weekend., posted by AuntieMel on January 8, 2005, at 21:04:33
Also wanted to put another question out there if I could. I'm having a particularly hard time today with dizziness, legs feeling like rubber (had to hang onto the wall in the shower just now). This is day 11 sober for me, so I question whether this has anything to do with alcohol withdrawal--has anyone had a.w. symptoms last this far out? I guess there's always a chance it could just be a flu bug or something--I'm just overly sensitive to anything weird happening in my body these days :)
Thx in advance for the help!
Lee
Posted by partlycloudy on January 16, 2005, at 7:25:31
In reply to Opinions on AA?, posted by Lee05 on January 15, 2005, at 13:38:08
It's a place that makes me cry because I see myself in each and every person in the room.
It's a place that frightens me because I don't think I know how to place my trust in that Higher Power.
It's a place that I am grateful will welcome me back as many times as it takes.
It's a place that disgusts me when I see fragile and vulnerable people be victimized by those who come to the meetings for the wrong reasons.
Every single meeting is different from one at another location.
Posted by Lee05 on January 16, 2005, at 9:03:26
In reply to Re: Opinions on AA? » Lee05, posted by partlycloudy on January 16, 2005, at 7:25:31
Partlycloudy,
Thanks so much--I've decided to go to both of the meetings in my neighbourhood this week--one on Monday and the other on Thursday. I'm a little nervous, but I figure I need all the help I can get if I'm going to make it work this time. Maybe it'll help me take the focus of myself for a while and turn it to other people--I've noticed myself becoming somewhat self-absorbed over the past 12 days.
I'll let you know how it goes--thanks again.
Lee
Posted by jujube on January 16, 2005, at 17:32:25
In reply to Re: Opinions on AA?, posted by Lee05 on January 16, 2005, at 9:03:26
For me, AA was a refuge at a time in my life when I felt alone and adrift with my alcoholism. It is nerve-wracking at first, there is no doubt about it. But, what I found at the meetings I went to was a community that would accept me, warts and all, and people who had been through what I had been going through and were still alive to talk about it. And, as weird as this may sound, I felt a huge sense relief and a lifting of a tremendous burden the first time I said out loud in front of a room full of people "My name is Tamara, and I am an alcoholic". That was over 8 1/2 years ago (after a few previously failed attempts), and I haven't looked back. All that to say that going to AA meetings early in my sobriety saved me when I couldn't save myself (and wasn't sure that I wanted to).
Good luck to you! And, remember, one day at a time.
> Partlycloudy,
>
> Thanks so much--I've decided to go to both of the meetings in my neighbourhood this week--one on Monday and the other on Thursday. I'm a little nervous, but I figure I need all the help I can get if I'm going to make it work this time. Maybe it'll help me take the focus of myself for a while and turn it to other people--I've noticed myself becoming somewhat self-absorbed over the past 12 days.
>
> I'll let you know how it goes--thanks again.
>
> Lee
Posted by Lee05 on January 17, 2005, at 9:01:47
In reply to Re: Opinions on AA? » Lee05, posted by jujube on January 16, 2005, at 17:32:25
Thanks to you too Jujube. It's really great to have all this support in my corner. It blows me away that people I don't even know so genuinely care about my recovery--it feels really good. Thank you!
Have a great day!
Lee
Posted by AuntieMel on January 17, 2005, at 17:26:18
In reply to Re: Opinions on AA?, posted by Lee05 on January 16, 2005, at 9:03:26
You don't have to limit yourself to your neighborhood.
I live in an affluent neighborhood, but I would not feel comfortable going to a meeting here - with all the nearby socialite wannabes.
When I go, it's to a meeting place in a run down center. It's a smoke filled room, full of leather jackets and people that have seen the inside of a prison more than once. There I am accepted for me, and don't feel like I have to impress anyone.
It's great!
Posted by jujube on January 17, 2005, at 22:04:07
In reply to Re: Opinions on AA? » Lee05, posted by AuntieMel on January 17, 2005, at 17:26:18
My experience was similar to yours, and I immediately felt at ease with the people who were so welcoming to all newcomers. It made going to meetings so much easier.
Tamara
> You don't have to limit yourself to your neighborhood.
>
> I live in an affluent neighborhood, but I would not feel comfortable going to a meeting here - with all the nearby socialite wannabes.
>
> When I go, it's to a meeting place in a run down center. It's a smoke filled room, full of leather jackets and people that have seen the inside of a prison more than once. There I am accepted for me, and don't feel like I have to impress anyone.
> It's great!
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Substance Use | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.