![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 43 to 67 of 83. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 20:36:25
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers*, posted by sunnydays on January 19, 2007, at 20:03:05
> **** But she also didn't say it was a bad idea. If she had strong feelings that it was a bad idea, trust me, she would have said that. She wants you to have ways to cope with your distress, and I imagine that anything she didn't think would be helpful, she would say so.
Yes, I think you're right. I've called the distress centre before, I don't think one need to be suicidal to call them.
>
> What if the Distress Centre calls the police on me? I don't want to get into trouble. I wouldn't want to be hauled off to the hospital for a mini OD. I can't go to the hospital without being really sick.
>
> **** Do you have to tell them where you live? If so, there are other hotlines that you can call where you don't have to, so there's no chance they'll call the police on you. But unless you are in absolute immanent danger I wouldn't think they would. Call them before you OD, if you ever feel like doing it again. If you call them after, it would be perfectly reasonable for them to call the police, as you are then a danger to yourself, even if you don't see it that way. But there are plenty of other places to call that wouldn't call the police. Try doing a Google search for crisis hotlines. There are lots.No, it's anonymous. I'm pretty sure if I take a real OD I will take the bus to the hospital. Or if I'm too sick I'll call 911.
> **** I can see why you would be scared to go back. I hope you wouldn't OD again once you got there. They are more likely to let you leave if you don't, Deneb. Try telling someone there that you want to, if you're ever in that situation again and you find that you do want to. Then they can comfort you and give you some help. I hope you never feel like that again though.
I sort of was in that situation again. I gave my pills to the receptionist.
> > Thinking about ODing makes me sort of want to OD again. I have no idea why.
>
> **** ((((Deneb)))) Please don't OD. Now would be a perfect time to go tell your mom you're thinking about it (and no, you don't have to follow through if you say that), or to call your pdoc, or to call the distress center, or to find another hotline to call, or to call a good friend and just chat. All are equally good options, in my opinion. I know my T would think any of them were a good idea, if that helps you any.It's OK. I'm really OK.
> **** You don't have to shut up Deneb. If people don't want to respond, they won't, and that's fine. But I'm responding now and I care. It's better to post about feeling like ODing and then not OD then to make yourself not post, and then get more upset.
>
> (((((Deneb))))
>
> sunnydays
>Thanks (((((sunnydays)))))
Deneb*
Posted by gabbi-2 on January 19, 2007, at 22:06:12
In reply to Nikki - responsibility/accountability, posted by one woman cine on January 19, 2007, at 8:05:53
> If a patient has symptoms of OD'ing and cannot get in touch with a pdoc, then a normal course of action is to go to the ER - of course I have never heard of not being able to get in touch with a pdoc - they have pagers and numbers to call because if patients cannot get in touch with them and a medical emergency occurs, they can be sued for malpractice.
>I'm only referring to this part of the thread, I have not even read the rest of it : )
But I did want to say that my P.Doc - the only one I could get because of the wait lists, ignored my calls every single one of them, and I was a new patient. I had no history of abusing the phoning privilege I actually felt terrible bothering the receptionist because I knew she was busy and could do nothing but pass on my messages; and my previous P.doc was so comfortable with me he gave me his home phone number, which I never once used.I would call my p'docs office in crisis because she didn't phone my medications in on time, every month I'd get anxious a week before my meds ran out because I knew she wouldn't respond.
Finally I called the mental health office after being without my medication for 5 days,(not from using too much) and even they couldn't get her to call, or refer me to someone who gave a damn.I know Deneb is from Canada and so am I, perhaps the threat of malpractice is not as prevalent here, but a crisis call to a P.Doc, or even a trip to the emergency room after overdosing (years ago) didn't result in anything but a charcoal drink, empty promises of help, which kept me going for a few days, but there was absolutely NO follow up, and no help, though I literally begged for an appointment with anyone, I was so lost.
It's the sad truth. I think a lot of folks assume this mythical "help" is out there, and refuse to believe that it doesn't always exist.I've had people angry with me for not partaking of it, when it couldn't be found, and it was agonizing, I felt let down by everyone.
This is a really sensitive topic for me, and I've already gone on too long, so I'd better quit.
Posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2007, at 22:11:56
In reply to Re: Nikki - responsibility/accountability *trigger » one woman cine, posted by gabbi-2 on January 19, 2007, at 22:06:12
Gabbi that's just horrible. Love Phillipa
Posted by cubic_me on January 20, 2007, at 7:59:42
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers* » sunnydays, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 20:36:25
>
> Yes, I think you're right. I've called the distress centre before, I don't think one need to be suicidal to call them.
>I haven't posted to you much before (actually I don't post that much at all!) but I just wanted to pick up that if it was just for suicidal people it would be called the suicide centre or similar. It sounds like just the right place for you to call - you do sound 'distressed' and upset.
I also don't think there's medically a distinction between what you think of as a 'mini-OD' and a 'real-OD', an overdose is just taking more medication than you should, whether that be to kill yourself, hurt yourself or by accident. Medically they're all treated the same, so don't feel you can't go to your emergency department because you didn't intend to die - you still need the treatment to minimise long term damage to your body, even if it doesn't result in getting the psychological support it sounds like you could do with.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 10:48:23
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? » Deneb, posted by NikkiT2 on January 19, 2007, at 4:21:07
> you have so often make it our fault.
I understand you want to help, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 10:48:26
In reply to Re: Nikki - responsibility/accountability *trigger » one woman cine, posted by gabbi-2 on January 19, 2007, at 22:06:12
> It has been pointed out, it is your call as when to call for help.
>
> Glydin> I think a lot of folks assume this mythical "help" is out there, and refuse to believe that it doesn't always exist.
>
> I've had people angry with me for not partaking of it, when it couldn't be found, and it was agonizing, I felt let down by everyone.
>
> gabbi-2I understand people want to help, and it's hard to know what's best sometimes, but pressure can go both ways, and it might not help Deneb to feel pressured, or that others are angry with her.
Bob
Posted by gabbi-2 on January 20, 2007, at 16:12:48
In reply to Re: Nikki - responsibility/accountability *trigger » gabbi-2, posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2007, at 22:11:56
It was horrible, it ruined two years of my life, I didn't even have a home phone, so every month I'd be using the grocery store phone to see if she'd called in my meds, and beg the pharmacey for some if they were not. It was humiliating and dangerous.
Finally I called my former pdoc from out of town, who knew I wouldn't lie about it, and in 30 minutes he had my meds phoned in, (on a SATURDAY) and said he would do that until I found someone else.
What's kind of funny was I told him I didn't want the mood stabilizers, and I said "I only needed them because I was being driven crazy by my psychiatrist"
I still don't need themYes there are some good Pdocs, but it's so frightening to even have to say that.
It's like brain surgeons you know, are people expected to accept that there are some good ones but "you just have to look around?!"
These people have lives in their hands. I would not have survived it if it weren't for my best friend, and my other Pdoc who believed me.
Posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 17:03:53
In reply to Re: calling for help, posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 10:48:26
Why is it called pressuring? Why is suggesting multiple times, the only advice we (as Non-Professionals) know to be equal to the severity of the complaints/posts, "pressure"? WHat are we supposed to suggest? What would be the appropriate response for non-doctors, on a site which isn't supposed to be used as(or replace) therapy itself, to someone talking of suicide and overdose? To me, anything less than suggesting calling ones psychiatrist, an new pdoc, a distress center, or going to the ER, would not only be incompetant, but would even mock the person's distress - or do you yourself already not believe in their validity. If someone says they are sad, they get "only support". But I mean honestly Bob, what is one *supposed* to say to such serious, and potentially fatal outcries?
If someone says "I feel angry when..." then thats different. But I don't believe it's the "fault" of the poster when a repeated suggestion is infered (as you, according to the wording above, have seem to have done) with "anger". Why did you choose "anger" and not "distress" or "concern"? That aside, Have you never suggested to a patient to call you if they are dangerously unstable, or to go to the ER if feeling suicidal? Were *you* angry when you suggested it? I doubt it.(but perhaps you are more research focused, and not practising clinically)
Also, you've never commented on how people must also learn to *reject* advice in an equally responsible and neutral way.
You continually only address one side of this equation.thanks El
Posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:26:28
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers* » Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 12:07:52
deneb, every time you "mini OD" (i am SO uncomfortable with that term. i used to work in ER) you are doing damage to your liver and kidneys that they may not be able to reverse. every time you take too much of any medication, your liver has to work extra hard to protect you. you can google "liver" and learn how terribly important it is to have a good healthy one.
i have to go on record and say that there is no "mini OD", medically, and a mistake may be made one day and it will be irreversible. pat
Posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2007, at 17:27:42
In reply to Re: calling for help » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 17:03:53
Thank you Elaine. You said what I wanted to say much better than I ever could have. I felt very hurt after reading Dr. Bob's post, and had no idea why it was wrong to suggest calling for help when there is nothing we can do on this site to help someone feeling distressed and suicidal other than suggest real life help. I briefly considered taking a couple week break from Babble after reading that post from Dr. Bob, too. I felt very hurt and confused. I wish that Bob would give suggestions as to what we are supposed to suggest to someone talking about suicide besides getting help in real life.
sunnydays
Posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:39:56
In reply to Re: calling for help » ElaineM, posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2007, at 17:27:42
> Thank you Elaine. You said what I wanted to say much better than I ever could have. I felt very hurt after reading Dr. Bob's post, and had no idea why it was wrong to suggest calling for help when there is nothing we can do on this site to help someone feeling distressed and suicidal other than suggest real life help. I briefly considered taking a couple week break from Babble after reading that post from Dr. Bob, too. I felt very hurt and confused. I wish that Bob would give suggestions as to what we are supposed to suggest to someone talking about suicide besides getting help in real life.
>
> sunnydayssunnydays and elaine.....i'm just picking myself up off the floor over this........i posted about how much damage deneb's liver is taking and i wonder if he thinks she shouldn't know that?
i am absolutely thrown for a loop over this one. more so than a lot of other things that bob says.........pat
Posted by gabbi-2 on January 20, 2007, at 17:47:41
In reply to Re: calling for help, posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:39:56
Ugh..
I didn't mean to infer that telling someone to call for help was anger, or pressure or negative. When I said people were angry with me, it was my personal situation, and didn't in *any* way mean to refer to the thread, which is why I specified as much in my post. I should have known it could be taken that way though, and I'm sorry if anyone thought I was being critical.
Posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2007, at 17:51:52
In reply to Re: calling for help, posted by gabbi-2 on January 20, 2007, at 17:47:41
> Ugh..
>
> I didn't mean to infer that telling someone to call for help was anger, or pressure or negative. When I said people were angry with me, it was my personal situation, and didn't in *any* way mean to refer to the thread, which is why I specified as much in my post. I should have known it could be taken that way though, and I'm sorry if anyone thought I was being critical.
>
>
I didn't take it that way at all, which was why I was so confused and hurt after I read bob's post.sunnydays
Posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:52:56
In reply to Re: calling for help » gabbi-2, posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2007, at 17:51:52
> > Ugh..
> >
> > I didn't mean to infer that telling someone to call for help was anger, or pressure or negative. When I said people were angry with me, it was my personal situation, and didn't in *any* way mean to refer to the thread, which is why I specified as much in my post. I should have known it could be taken that way though, and I'm sorry if anyone thought I was being critical.
> >
> >
>
>
> I didn't take it that way at all, which was why I was so confused and hurt after I read bob's post.
>
> sunnydaysgabbi......i didn't take it that way at all...........
>
Posted by gabbi-2 on January 20, 2007, at 19:00:09
In reply to Re: calling for help, posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:52:56
I guess I just didn't give my fellow babblers enough credit : )
Posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2007, at 19:21:56
In reply to Thank you for letting me know!, posted by gabbi-2 on January 20, 2007, at 19:00:09
Me either. And I agree that we should have some other responses to OD posts. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phil on January 20, 2007, at 20:01:55
In reply to Re: Thank you for letting me know! » gabbi-2, posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2007, at 19:21:56
Me neither gabbi. :)
Posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 21:57:41
In reply to Thank you for letting me know!, posted by gabbi-2 on January 20, 2007, at 19:00:09
> I guess I just didn't give my fellow babblers enough credit : )
thank YOU, Gabbi, i was needing some credit right now...........:-)
Posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 22:56:25
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers* » Deneb, posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:26:28
> deneb, every time you "mini OD" (i am SO uncomfortable with that term. i used to work in ER) you are doing damage to your liver and kidneys that they may not be able to reverse. every time you take too much of any medication, your liver has to work extra hard to protect you. you can google "liver" and learn how terribly important it is to have a good healthy one.
>
> i have to go on record and say that there is no "mini OD", medically, and a mistake may be made one day and it will be irreversible. patI believe you Pat. I won't do it again.
Deneb*
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 20, 2007, at 23:29:54
In reply to Re: calling for help, posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 10:48:26
Dr Bob can you *give us some examples* of how we may help? I think I saw once on this site a notice "if you are suicidal call...etc"......Would not helping Deneb by NOT suggesting she call for professional help
lead others to NOT post or want to talk to her and or to feel accused and put down by you because they offered the SAME advice and help most professionals have on their recorded messages and websites ? Could this lead Deneb to be shunned ? I would not want to see that. I am not being smart mouthed or snide when I ask you these questions.
> > It has been pointed out, it is your call as when to call for help.
> >
> > Glydin
>
> > I think a lot of folks assume this mythical "help" is out there, and refuse to believe that it doesn't always exist.
> >
> > I've had people angry with me for not partaking of it, when it couldn't be found, and it was agonizing, I felt let down by everyone.
> >
> > gabbi-2
>
> I understand people want to help, and it's hard to know what's best sometimes, but pressure can go both ways, and it might not help Deneb to feel pressured, or that others are angry with her.
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 3:51:02
In reply to Re: calling for help, posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:39:56
> Why is suggesting multiple times, the only advice we (as Non-Professionals) know to be equal to the severity of the complaints/posts, "pressure"? ... What would be the appropriate response for non-doctors, on a site which isn't supposed to be used as(or replace) therapy itself, to someone talking of suicide and overdose? To me, anything less than suggesting calling ones psychiatrist, an new pdoc, a distress center, or going to the ER, would not only be incompetant, but would even mock the person's distress
>
> I don't believe it's the "fault" of the poster when a repeated suggestion is infered (as you, according to the wording above, have seem to have done) with "anger". Why did you choose "anger" and not "distress" or "concern"?
>
> Also, you've never commented on how people must also learn to *reject* advice in an equally responsible and neutral way.
>
> thanks ElFirst, I didn't mean to imply that suggesting that someone in distress call a psychiatrist or a distress center or go to an ER was inappropriate. Nor that anyone here wasn't trying to help.
Maybe pressure was on my mind because it's been an issue at Admin. That's a good question, if there's a difference between suggesting multiple times and pressuring. And another good question is whether there ways to suggest that would be more likely to be experienced as concern rather than anger. What do you all think?
As far as how else to respond, are there responses *in addition* to those suggestions that you all would find helpful if you were feeling really distressed? What would you want a friend to say to you?
I agree, posters in distress do need to be civil, too.
--
> i'm just picking myself up off the floor over this........i posted about how much damage deneb's liver is taking and i wonder if he thinks she shouldn't know that?
>
> patSorry about knocking you onto the floor. No, her knowing that wasn't the issue.
Bob
Posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 12:34:32
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 3:51:02
>>>>>>First, I didn't mean to imply that suggesting that someone in distress call a psychiatrist or a distress center or go to an ER was inappropriate. Nor that anyone here wasn't trying to help.
No, I didn't think it seemed as though you were saying it's inappropriate, but more that you thought it felt like "pressure" because it was a over-exaggeration in relation to the distressed posts. That's why I asked if you possibly questioned the veracity of the distress posts -- I felt confused by the lack of levity you seemed to view the situation with. Though, now you've attempted clarify somewhat.
No, I wouldn't think you *meant* to. Everyone injects their own personal feelings into their responses -- you are no less human. But the thing that people felt accused from was (as I mentioned in the other post) that you chose to refer to such help as representative of "anger", instead of something with more positive connotations. Again, perhaps you find it difficult to seperate your own personal feelings, but it paints your replies in something less than a purely administrative tone -- that's all. Perhaps you've never had a personal brush with overdose or lost someone to suicide - could that be why you are not viewing posts that contain such subjects as in need of immediate intervention as other readers here? Or have you yourself had traumatic experiences receiveing suicide-distress calls from patients before, and you have feelings about us suggesting "call a professional" advice? I don't know.
>>>>>That's a good question, if there's a difference between suggesting multiple times and pressuring. And another good question is whether there ways to suggest that would be more likely to be experienced as concern rather than anger. What do you all think?
Yes, I thought it was a valid question. That's why I wanted your response. Perhaps you could give your opinion first, and then we could use that to spark a discussion - rather than you not giving a response. Again, the "anger" word :)
>>>>>>As far as how else to respond, are there responses *in addition* to those suggestions that you all would find helpful if you were feeling really distressed? What would you want a friend to say to you?
Bob, again no real answer? We wanted to hear from you (from the person who posted that original judgement, and from the admin)
I think that maybe you are missing my point. Feeling really distressed is one thing, suicide and overdoses is another. I agree there are a wide variety of ways to convery support to someone who is distressed. THere are significantly less ways to help someone talking of overdosing. And in that situation (as other posters have also echoed) nothing is equal to the seriousness of the subject, or the level of distress of the outcry, than to advise that someone call, or be with, professionals. At least not that we knew of, hence the question to you.>>>>>>I agree, posters in distress do need to be civil, too.
Thank you. I appreciate that being acknowledged.
thanks El
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 16:23:05
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 12:34:32
> I wanted your response. Perhaps you could give your opinion first, and then we could use that to spark a discussion
I think you all are capable of sparking a discussion yourselves. :-) I just wanted to shift the focus.
> Feeling really distressed is one thing, suicide and overdoses is another. ... in that situation ... nothing is equal to the seriousness of the subject, or the level of distress of the outcry, than to advise that someone call, or be with, professionals.
So are you saying that if you were talking to a friend about overdosing, the only response you'd find helpful would be if they suggested that you call a professional?
Bob
Posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 18:09:46
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 16:23:05
>>>>>I think you all are capable of sparking a discussion yourselves. :-) I just wanted to shift the focus.
Fair enough. I just wanted you to clarify why you chose to judge the tone of the posts as angry. But if you want to change the subject, i guess I'll have to be okay with that.
>>>>So are you saying that if you were talking to a friend about overdosing, the only response you'd find helpful would be if they suggested that you call a professional?
If i couldn't take the chosen method of self-harm (especially pills, which people can never be sure how each individual body will react to -- especially if I couldn't ensure dosing mistakes weren't made, especially if I wouldn't be there to monitor someone's health/coherance afterwards...to name a few) away from someone, then I would always tell them to call a professional. I don't make light of the harm that overdose can do.
But back to the scenario, if I was talking to my friend in an extremely emotionally distressed way, had the potential means to enact my plan, was expressing a sense of hopelessness, then Yes I would.
Overdose and suicide are very tragic things. Since we're talking about me, I'd hope my friend would call someone if my distress was escalating, or I was sounding more chaotic or emotionally unstable -- particularily cause I've never said anything like that before to anyone. So if I ever reached the point of suicide or potentially damaging drug doses, and chose to tell someone, YES I'd think that would merit immediate reaction.Is it the idea of overdose that you view lightly? Would it make a difference if the potential method of harm was a gun? I'm truly not understanding where you're coming from. I'd think you'd understand how serious suicide and overdosing are. It's different than just being sad.
I don't see how anyone could say that a friend *shouldn't* always say that someone so distressed they're thinking of harming themself should call their T or pdoc. Though I suppose we'll never meet on this issue.
thanks, El
Posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 18:28:24
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 18:09:46
There's a big difference between self harm and wanting to kill ones self. Maybe think of mini ODing as the same as superficial cutting? Would one need to see a professional every single time he cut? Even if it weren't medically serious?
I didn't take a big OD, I only took 2 grams of ASA. I need a lot more than that to harm myself.
Deneb*
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