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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Deneb on August 26, 2005, at 21:22:55
I have this curiosity to know the number of patients the average p-doc has who kill themselves.
I asked this of my p-doc several times, every time she says "none." I was shocked. She even said none for her residency. Then I started to think that she must not see people with big problems.
Is suicide really that rare? I know it is next to impossible to predict. Is it evil to think that all p-docs should have some patients kill themselves because it might be good experience for them?
Teehee, I wonder how many of Dr. Bob's patients killed themselves? I'll guess 5. Is this a reasonable guess?
Hmmm...what about your average T? What would the average be there? Maybe 2?
I wonder how many students die from suicide in university in a year...maybe 4? Or more? I'm just totally guessing here.
I wonder how many people who visit the bad place I go to sometimes actually go through and kill themselves? I'm certain people have gone through with their plans there. I'll guess 20 a year?
Deneb
Posted by 10derHeart on August 27, 2005, at 1:25:21
In reply to Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger***, posted by Deneb on August 26, 2005, at 21:22:55
> Teehee, I wonder how many of Dr. Bob's patients killed themselves? I'll guess 5. Is this a reasonable guess?
Deneb,
First, thanks for the **trigger** warning here. It's good and important you remembered to do that, but...
It isn't a license to express yourself any way you want. Placing the phrase *tee-hee* in front of a question such as you asked above comes across as pretty insensitive.
Suicide is NOT funny to pdocs, other T's, family and friends of those who attempt or complete, or for those fighting those urges all the time. Laughing, joking, or otherwise making light of it in any way just has no place here.
I know you struggle sometimes at understanding what's okay to post or not, especially around this subject. I'm sure you didn't even think when you typed *tee-hee,* that's why I'm pointing it out. I know you don't have bad intentions. But you have to be careful and thoughtful.
I read your posts because I like you and like to read ALL your posts, and because *triggery* subjects are something I can generally handle right now.
But even I can't remain silent when a poster appears to be giggling about the horrible situation of pdocs who may have had patients kill themselves.
Also, just say Dr. Bob had experienced this tragedy...are you thinking about his feelings when you write your posts? That's a really important thing to work on doing..imagining how the reader will feel.
Does this make sense? Are you doing okay?
I'm trying to help, Deneb.
Posted by rainbowbrite on August 27, 2005, at 4:38:17
In reply to Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger***, posted by Deneb on August 26, 2005, at 21:22:55
Posted by Deneb on August 27, 2005, at 9:56:30
In reply to Please be sensitive ***Trigger***, posted by 10derHeart on August 27, 2005, at 1:25:21
> Suicide is NOT funny to pdocs, other T's, family and friends of those who attempt or complete, or for those fighting those urges all the time. Laughing, joking, or otherwise making light of it in any way just has no place here.
I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was joking about suicide. I was just trying to be lighthearted. For some reason I still don't always think that suicide is a serious thing. Sigh, I guess I still don't get it.
> I know you struggle sometimes at understanding what's okay to post or not, especially around this subject. I'm sure you didn't even think when you typed *tee-hee,* that's why I'm pointing it out. I know you don't have bad intentions. But you have to be careful and thoughtful.
I remembered to put in *Trigger* because I mentioned the word "suicide". I learned that that word is triggering for some people. I didn't realize that my entire post was bad. :-(
> But even I can't remain silent when a poster appears to be giggling about the horrible situation of pdocs who may have had patients kill themselves.
I'm sorry I don't always see suicide as a serious thing.
> Also, just say Dr. Bob had experienced this tragedy...are you thinking about his feelings when you write your posts? That's a really important thing to work on doing..imagining how the reader will feel.I did consider his feelings. :-( I thought he might be amused. Are you saying he is likely to be upset when patients kill themselves? Shouldn't p-docs be used to that sort of thing? Or am I being insensitive again? :-( I'm sorry.
> I'm trying to help, Deneb.
I know. I know I'm not a normal person. :-(
Deneb
Posted by JenStar on August 27, 2005, at 13:10:09
In reply to Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger***, posted by Deneb on August 26, 2005, at 21:22:55
Deneb,
from your posts, I would surmise that you are indifferent not to death, but perhaps to other people's trigger level about suicide and death?The fact that you think about death so much, and bring it up so often, makes me think you're far from indifferent to it.
But it does concern me that you seem to joke or refer lightly to suicide, even though many people have told you it really disturbs them. I can tell that you're a very smart and kind person in general. So I don't know why it is that you continue to talk about things in a way that is disturbing?
I don't think a T or doctor of any kind could be considered compassionate or caring if they were NOT disturbed by a suicide on their watch! I'm sure it's devastating in a way to lose someone whom you were trying your best to help. Of course doctors must remain partially dispassionate in order not to be wrung dry by multiple patients, but still, suicide is a serious thing and would hurt the ones left behind.
That being said, I still believe the only person responsible for a suicide is the one DOING it -- no one else is to blame. Others can try to help, but it's up to every individual to decide for themself how to live and sometimes how to die.
Yes, I think it IS wrong to think that all p-docs should have a suicidal patient carry it out. I think saying that is pretty offensive to doctors and also to the suicidal patients! How would that help a doctor, in your opinion, to treat other patients? Would it really change anything? It seems to me that you're kind of in a place where you're interesting in understanding 'blame' for a suicide, and from the way your wrote the post, I interpreted that you might blame a p-doc for a patient's suicide. LIke I said above, I would disagree with that. I think every person owns their own life and the responsibility to keep it going!
Deneb, I care about you and I'm trying to help. I'm sorry if my post sounded harsh. I guess I just feel frustrated when I read posts about suicide that seem to joke about it.
I hope you're well and that this mood passes quickly, and that you're back to being *you* again soon!
take care of yourself!
JenStar
Posted by Deneb on August 27, 2005, at 15:02:18
In reply to Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger***, posted by Deneb on August 26, 2005, at 21:22:55
I'm sorry. Please don't block me Dr. Bob. I promise I won't do this again. Cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye promise.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on August 27, 2005, at 15:28:08
In reply to Re: Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger, posted by Deneb on August 27, 2005, at 15:02:18
The rule I will remember is this:
Don't make light of suicide. I will try to follow this rule. I think I need rules because I don't always understand when something crosses the line and offends people. I'm sorry people.
Deneb
Posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 15:56:48
In reply to Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger***, posted by Deneb on August 26, 2005, at 21:22:55
I suspect suicide happens in social clusters. Two people who were my best friends at particular times suicided. And a much larger number died through suicidal behaviour. It's just easier for some.
You know how at a party, if someone isn't liking it they will leave straight away. And others will not consider that a good enough reason to leave. I think it's like that.
I was one of those who couldn't leave. The worse it got the more I stayed. Getting drunker and drunker, the worse it got the more I needed to stay, because to leave would be such an incredible insult. Given how I was feeling, if you catch my drift.
Declan
Posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 16:03:26
In reply to Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger***, posted by Deneb on August 26, 2005, at 21:22:55
On the numbers of suicides, I do know that in Australia more die from suicide than road accidents. 60,000pa.???? I've no idea. And of course half the road accidents are suicides or suicidal.
Anyone ever had anyone close to them suicide? Lots of us I would guess.
Declan
Posted by Deneb on August 27, 2005, at 17:11:08
In reply to Re: Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger*** » Deneb, posted by JenStar on August 27, 2005, at 13:10:09
> Deneb,
> from your posts, I would surmise that you are indifferent not to death, but perhaps to other people's trigger level about suicide and death?I think sometimes I forget how easily triggered some people are. In my world, these topics are not taboo and thought of all the time. I think about them so much that it's difficult for me to think that other people do not think about these things so much. It is difficult for me to understand why things that do not bother me bother others so much.
> That being said, I still believe the only person responsible for a suicide is the one DOING it -- no one else is to blame.I know that. I don't understand why you keep thinking that I'm out to blame others. I just don't understand why it upsets people so very much...like you said, it is entirely the individuals' fault. Other people shouldn't care so much. It is a GOOD thing in my mind that my p-doc doesn't care if I live or die. She told me herself that it is my decision to make and I'm glad she will never lock me for it. I don't blame her for anything, I LIKE that she gives ME the choice. I wouldn't want anyone here to stop me from killing myself...it is MY decision to make. I wouldn't blame anyone for not doing anything to stop me.
> Yes, I think it IS wrong to think that all p-docs should have a suicidal patient carry it out. I think saying that is pretty offensive to doctors and also to the suicidal patients! How would that help a doctor, in your opinion, to treat other patients?
It would help them realize that they cannot 'save' everyone and that it really is terminal for some people. Maybe one day they will even help some people kill themselves. It will also help them to not care so much about suicide.
> I hope you're well and that this mood passes quickly, and that you're back to being *you* again soon!
What if this *is* me?
Deneb
Posted by Nickengland on August 27, 2005, at 17:54:48
In reply to Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger***, posted by Deneb on August 26, 2005, at 21:22:55
Hi Deneb,
Just out of curosity I wondered if I could ask you a question..
>Teehee, I wonder how many of Dr. Bob's patients killed themselves? I'll guess 5. Is this a reasonable guess?
Teehee (LOL?) I wonder how many of Dr. XXX patients have died of cancer. I guess X. is this a reasonable guess?
I would assume that doctors whether they are treating cancer or trying to prevent suicide definately have patients die under their care at one point or another. How many die is just a number, unless you are trying to establish whether a particular doctor has more patients die under their care than another particular doctor, i'm not sure.
Whether X is a reasonable guess as to how many deaths have occured is maybe not the question. The thing is all those patients who did die had families who cared about them, i'm not sure whether or not you would think it reasonable if someone was guessing how many deaths had occured and one of your family members or close friends died under the care of that doctor - and someone was teehee'ing about the guess?
I've had relatives die of suicide and cancer. My grandparents.
My question is, from your other posts on this thread you seem to say you can't understand why this would upset people with what you've said. So if someone close to you, be it a relative or close friend was to die under the care of Dr. Bob or any other doctor, would you find it offensive if people were 'teehee'ing about the esitmates of those deaths when your relative or friend was one of them? In otherwords is it acceptable to laugh about death, especially the death that occurs from mental illness which is namely suicide?
Kind regardsNick
Posted by gardenergirl on August 27, 2005, at 18:25:10
In reply to Re: Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger***, posted by Deneb on August 27, 2005, at 17:11:08
> Other people shouldn't care so much.
The bottom line, Deneb, is that other people DO care about this. Whether you can understand why they do or not, I do hope you hear this message. Other people DO care. Please try to respect that, even if you disagree.
gg
Posted by Deneb on August 27, 2005, at 18:33:59
In reply to Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger***, posted by Deneb on August 26, 2005, at 21:22:55
Posted by Nickengland on August 27, 2005, at 19:28:12
In reply to Re: Please be sensitive ***Trigger*** » 10derHeart, posted by Deneb on August 27, 2005, at 9:56:30
>For some reason I still don't always think that suicide is a serious thing.
If you think Cancer or A.I.D's is serious, then try to remember suicide is just the same.
They can and will result in death. Death is serious
>I'm sorry I don't always see suicide as a serious thing.
Perhaps you've learnt for the future.
>I know I'm not a normal person.
Normal is a setting on a washing machine.
Posted by rainbowbrite on August 28, 2005, at 1:50:02
In reply to Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger***, posted by Deneb on August 26, 2005, at 21:22:55
Deneb,
Now I understand the importance of *trigger*. I dont understand why you post as you do?? I have been so upset since I read those posts. Of course its my fault for reading....Oh wait, is it? Maybe not, humans naturally are curious, I dont come over to these boards to read things like this, you have no idea what other people are going through and have been through in thier lives and exposing others to things like this in a 'safe' environment can be extremely painful and disturbing! It is important to think of others sometimes. Im assuming you wanted a reaction from us, which you got or Dr. Bob to do something...I dont know. I dont understand. But this hit me deep in the gut.
I needed to tell you that I feel sick and so upset by what I have read. By the way you write I'm guessing you haven't lost anyone to suicide.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 28, 2005, at 16:10:16
In reply to Re: Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger*** » Deneb, posted by rainbowbrite on August 28, 2005, at 1:50:02
Posted by Damos on August 28, 2005, at 16:46:11
In reply to Re: Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger*** » Deneb, posted by rainbowbrite on August 28, 2005, at 1:50:02
Posted by Declan on August 28, 2005, at 18:29:45
In reply to Re: Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger*** » Deneb, posted by rainbowbrite on August 28, 2005, at 1:50:02
There's nothing like suicide for those left behind eh? It stays with you too. A lifetime.
But is one of the themes here the arbitariness of the meaningless destuctive impulse? Like you've got your new baby at some height and something says 'What if I threw him down, for no reason'. Like Dostoyevsky. Existential freedom, is that it?Everyone seems a little touchy, it must be the Monday morning thing. Maybe I'm overgeneralising again.
Declan
Posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 20:13:02
In reply to Re: Am I horribly indifferent to death? ***Trigger*** » rainbowbrite, posted by Declan on August 28, 2005, at 18:29:45
>...it must be the Monday morning thing. Maybe I'm overgeneralising again.
LOL!!!! Yup, I do believe you are, its still Sunday over those ways ;-)
Posted by rainbowbrite on August 29, 2005, at 0:18:03
In reply to (((((Rainbowbrite))))) (nm) » rainbowbrite, posted by Damos on August 28, 2005, at 16:46:11
thanks you guys!
This is the end of the thread.
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