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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by Nezirov on July 1, 2005, at 12:06:37
I agree with *some* of what you say, but aren't you throwing the baby out with the bath water?
Aren't you thinking a little too black and white ?
How can you say that you fully understand what psychiatry has to offer when you've only taken one drug ?
People can get stuck in the habbit of projecting depression's bitterness on something intangable.
For me, my life sucks, my job sucks, I have no money, no future, etc. Sure, I like to project my unhappiness on something else like psychiatry, but that doesn't do me any good.
*Some* psychiatrists think they have all the answers, but not all. Not all of them are arrogent. Many of them know the limitations of the medications they have. Many of them are real people.How can you suppose that nobody is helped by the medications ?
Invent a better drug youself, in your basement.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him... » Nezirov, posted by linkadge on July 1, 2005, at 16:48:30
We need better medications regardless. But these things take time to develop.
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by linkadge on July 1, 2005, at 16:51:43
Medications help me greatly! I simply can not function without them! So I should blame doctors for not having all the answers! Preposterous! No drug will fix everything, ever! They give a lot of people the oppurtunity to find happiness, they do not create it. I think some people expect far too much from thes drugs.Take the pill, get off your butt, and go out the door and find something that brings you joy. The pills only release enough anxiety that I can do that. I can not take all the whining about why these drugs don't make people happy. 50% help is all I expect, the rest is up to me. You won't catch me whining.......................
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by Nickengland on July 1, 2005, at 16:33:12
Some people may need medications, I'm not denying that. But only a small percentage of people. If you believed the DSM manuals, then everybody has mental illness. Nonsense.
A lot of the problems people have are a result of the way society is today. I could talk at length about that, but another time.
Anyway, the drugs are vastly overprescibed and many people end up getting mental illness from them who never had it originally.
The human brain is the most complicated thing in the known universe, and artificially raising a major neurotransmitters for years at a time will almost always cause further damage.
Then you end up getting hooked on the drugs for life. It's a vicious circle..Nezirov
> The illness(s) do much more harm than good in the long-term...its easy to put down psychiatry, but not so easy to offer alternatives as you end up looking like a fool like Tom Cruise saying "Vitamins and Exercise"
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> Psychiatry is in its infancy Nezirov and there is so much more to be learned for the future. We have come along way from what the treatment was 200 hundreds ago and many thousands upon hundreds of thousands of people are helped.
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> Yes some people can be made worse by medication that is supposed to make them better. But in the past people were left for dead quite literally.
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> I can understand that you have bitterness for being let down by a medication and psychiatry...but that does not mean that "everyone" has been let down and are under-going more harm than good in the long-term...when in reality many people who are in and out of hospital are finally put on the "right" medications they can regain their lives, build familys and hold down full-time jobs.
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> At present medications only treat the symtoms..they are not an over-night quick fix - There is no alternative than what psychiatry has to offer today and if you think you you can treat any severe mental illness otherwise please lets us know...
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> Kind regards
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> Nick
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> Ps Sexual dysfunction is a common problem in people who have never taken SSRI medication aswell as never even had a psychiatric problem.
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Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him... » Nezirov, posted by linkadge on July 1, 2005, at 16:48:30
> I agree with *some* of what you say, but aren't you throwing the baby out with the bath water?
No.
> Aren't you thinking a little too black and white ?
No.
> How can you say that you fully understand what psychiatry has to offer when you've only taken one drug ?
I don't think psychiatry has anything to offer any more. Most psychiatrists don't even *listen* to there patients. So how can they help them? Listening is absolutely critical to any helping profession.
> People can get stuck in the habbit of projecting depression's bitterness on something intangable.Speak for yourself...
> For me, my life sucks, my job sucks, I have no money, no future, etc. Sure, I like to project my unhappiness on something else like psychiatry, but that doesn't do me any good.
I have a good job, I have money, I have a future. I also used to have a very good sex drive, which was taken away by a so called "antidepressant". I may recover at some point, but in the meantime I'm learning as much as I can about psychiatry, neurology, neurobiology etc. and my current conlusion is indedd that psychiatry is a pseudoscience. I'm a top-level scientist myself, Ph.D. in cell/molecular biology so I think I'm qualified to make that decision.,
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> *Some* psychiatrists think they have all the answers, but not all. Not all of them are arrogent. Many of them know the limitations of the medications they have. Many of them are real people.Well, I have not met one psychiatrist so far who was not arrogant *and* ignorant. True, sample size only about 10, but that's enough to make an assesment for me.
Some, people are helped, but most just get caught on the drug merry-go-round, and end up getting diagnosed as "bipolar III" or some other such nonsense.>
> Invent a better drug youself, in your basement.Huh? Actually I have the scientific exertise to do that, but why would I, when I don't think drugs are the answer?
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Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by flmm on July 1, 2005, at 17:04:51
> Medications help me greatly! I simply can not function without them! So I should blame doctors for not having all the answers! Preposterous! No drug will fix everything, ever! They give a lot of people the oppurtunity to find happiness, they do not create it. I think some people expect far too much from thes drugs.Take the pill, get off your butt, and go out the door and find something that brings you joy. The pills only release enough anxiety that I can do that. I can not take all the whining about why these drugs don't make people happy. 50% help is all I expect, the rest is up to me. You won't catch me whining.......................
???
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by Nickengland on July 1, 2005, at 16:33:12
> The illness(s) do much more harm than good in the long-term...its easy to put down psychiatry, but not so easy to offer alternatives as you end up looking like a fool like Tom Cruise saying "Vitamins and Exercise"
I don't think Tom looked like a fool at all. It's about time some public figure had the guts to come forward and expose this house of cards. I don't think vitamins or exercise ae the answer, but they don't damage the lives of hundreds of thousands of people like thesed rugs do.
> Psychiatry is in its infancy Nezirov and there is so much more to be learned for the future.Your're very right about that...
>but that does not mean that "everyone" has been >let down and are under-going more harm than >good in the long-term...Are you really 100% sure about that?
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> At present medications only treat the symtoms..they are not an over-night quick fix - There is no alternative than what psychiatry has to offer today and if you think you you can treat any severe mental illness otherwise please lets us know...
The alterantive is vitamins and exercise. No, I'm kidding. I think there are some forms of tru mental illness. Of course there are. But most mental illness today is caused environmental causes.
> Ps Sexual dysfunction is a common problem in people who have never taken SSRI medication aswell as never even had a psychiatric problem.Yeah, I know. And your point is??
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by Nezirov on July 1, 2005, at 18:04:29
Have a nice cup of "Get over the bitterness" juice Nezerov,I will be waiting for you to come up with all the solutions! PLeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease................
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by flmm on July 1, 2005, at 18:21:52
> Have a nice cup of "Get over the bitterness" juice Nezerov,I will be waiting for you to come up with all the solutions! PLeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease................
???
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by Nezirov on July 1, 2005, at 18:30:16
???????????????
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:29
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by flmm on July 1, 2005, at 18:21:52
> Have a nice cup of "Get over the bitterness" juice Nezerov,I will be waiting for you to come up with all the solutions! PLeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease................
As I've said before, some people do require these medications. You stated in a previous post that you are one of them. I would tend to agree. But the majority of people who take these brain disruptors don't need them.
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:30
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by Nezirov on July 1, 2005, at 19:03:12
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:30
In reply to What does ???????? mean ? (nm) » Nezirov, posted by linkadge on July 1, 2005, at 19:28:16
I guess it means something like "???", as in "huh?".
Posted by Declan on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:30
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by Nezirov on July 1, 2005, at 19:03:12
When I was 17 I needed to believe that this society had soul doctors. I therefore went to see a shrink. I was stubborn about the soul doctor thing, and it was quite some time before I got over it, and went into psychodynamics where I could indulge it. However my contact with psychdrs led me to a 30 year benzo habit, enabled by 70s style Rxing for them. Not really the drs fault, I would have done it and other stuff on my own. But the first rule of medicine is first of all do no harm. In my opinion we'd be better off with illegal drugs, vitamins and exercise. Or maybe I'm just jaundiced.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:30
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by Nezirov on July 1, 2005, at 19:03:12
I will agree with you that the medications are overprescribed. And I also agree with you that many people can get the raw end of the stick, when doctors don't listen to their patients.
The DSM is not the reason that so many people are on meds these days. It's partly due to the drug companies advertising the meds on TV (which should not be allowed IMO) and its partly due to ourselves. We want perfect lives, and when things are less than perfect we think that things are wrong, we think that we are abnormal, and that there is something wrong with us. Its *our* fault that we are willing to work 80 hours a week, and stress ourselves to suicidal, just to get more money, status etc.
Nobody is forcing us to take these medications. We choose them. We can choose not to take them.
We also want fast results. Sure, eating right, exercising, and choosing a less stressfull job would probably help 50 % of "mental illness" out there. But we want to keep our job, sit on the couch and eat garbage, and feel better overnight.
Depression is a signal. But in the end it is our fault for wanting our cake, and to eat it too.
-----------------------------------------------
On the other hand
------------------------------------------------Just as heart disease can be caused by this toxic lifestlye, it can still exist in the absence of any toxic lifestyle. That is where meds can help. For those who do make every concieveable lifestyle change that could improve their depression and yet they still want to slit their wrists on a daily basis. This is where meds can help. But I will admit, I am not one of those people.
Linkadge
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:30
In reply to Re: Exercise, vitamins and illegal drugs, posted by Declan on July 1, 2005, at 19:40:58
You've hit the nail on the head : "Firt do no harm". Most doctors don't even understand what that means. Death from medication side effects is one of the leading causes of death in this country, well over 100,000 deaths per year. In the majority of cases the drugs were never needed. And even if the drugs were needed, the "one size fits all" mentality of dosing is absolutely idiotic. Case in point, prozac. Even Eli Lilly showed that it works (and I use the word "works" very losely) at 5 mg/day. But for marketing reasons they bumped it up t 20 mg/day, causing many more side effects to emerge for most people.
N> When I was 17 I needed to believe that this society had soul doctors. I therefore went to see a shrink. I was stubborn about the soul doctor thing, and it was quite some time before I got over it, and went into psychodynamics where I could indulge it. However my contact with psychdrs led me to a 30 year benzo habit, enabled by 70s style Rxing for them. Not really the drs fault, I would have done it and other stuff on my own. But the first rule of medicine is first of all do no harm. In my opinion we'd be better off with illegal drugs, vitamins and exercise. Or maybe I'm just jaundiced.
> Declan
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:30
In reply to Re: Exercise, vitamins and illegal drugs, posted by Nezirov on July 1, 2005, at 19:50:46
Case in point, prozac. Even Eli Lilly showed that it works (and I use the word "works" very losely) at 5 mg/day. But for marketing reasons they bumped it up t 20 mg/day, causing many more side effects to emerge for most people.
---------------------------------------------Yes, but thats not psychiatry, thats the drug
companies and the FDA. Like I said, theres good out there and theres bad out there. You need to know the ropes. Most doctors don't know the ropes because they've never taken these meds and have been taugh nonsense in school.But I keep coming back because I know that, although they're way off, there onto something.
Linkadge
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:30
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him... » Nezirov, posted by linkadge on July 1, 2005, at 19:48:49
There are few things I disagree with you on here. It would seem our opinions are not so different after all.
What I do disagree with though is your assertion that "we think there is something wrong with us". I never thought there was something "wrong" with me. I just knew I was so stressed out that I needed some therapy.
I resisted going on celexa very strongly, but there was enormous pressure put on me to do so. The "industry" *wants* you to think that there is something fundamentally wrong with your brain, but in 99% of cases there is no organic disease whatsoever. But after you take these poisons, who knows what they do to the brain.Nezirov> I will agree with you that the medications are overprescribed. And I also agree with you that many people can get the raw end of the stick, when doctors don't listen to their patients.
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> The DSM is not the reason that so many people are on meds these days. It's partly due to the drug companies advertising the meds on TV (which should not be allowed IMO) and its partly due to ourselves. We want perfect lives, and when things are less than perfect we think that things are wrong, we think that we are abnormal, and that there is something wrong with us. Its *our* fault that we are willing to work 80 hours a week, and stress ourselves to suicidal, just to get more money, status etc.
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> Nobody is forcing us to take these medications. We choose them. We can choose not to take them.
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> We also want fast results. Sure, eating right, exercising, and choosing a less stressfull job would probably help 50 % of "mental illness" out there. But we want to keep our job, sit on the couch and eat garbage, and feel better overnight.
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> Depression is a signal. But in the end it is our fault for wanting our cake, and to eat it too.
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> On the other hand
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> Just as heart disease can be caused by this toxic lifestlye, it can still exist in the absence of any toxic lifestyle. That is where meds can help. For those who do make every concieveable lifestyle change that could improve their depression and yet they still want to slit their wrists on a daily basis. This is where meds can help. But I will admit, I am not one of those people.
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Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:30
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by Nezirov on July 1, 2005, at 19:59:05
Dream on Dr. Nezerov, you need medication too!
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:30
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by flmm on July 1, 2005, at 21:12:10
> Dream on Dr. Nezerov, you need medication too!
No I don't. I've been off all medications for over two years now, and I'm doing just fine, thanks.
It seems like you need a medication change though, because I'm starting to get the feeling I'm being stalked. When's your next appointment? D'ya think you could get in sooner?Nezirov
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:31
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by Nezirov on July 1, 2005, at 21:23:16
I don't mean this in a facetious way at all. I am just wondering what you are here for, if you have no intentions of ever touching a psychiatric med again so long as you live ?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:31
In reply to personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by iforgotmypassword on July 1, 2005, at 6:10:44
Scientology approaches it the wrong way. Anyone can raise a flag.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:31
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by linkadge on July 1, 2005, at 21:28:06
I am not stalking Nez, but paranoia is a "symptom"!
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:31
In reply to Why'd you come to this board ? » Nezirov, posted by linkadge on July 1, 2005, at 21:26:59
I came here to advertize my SSRI sexual side effects group on Yahoo and then got caught up in the discussions that ensued. I don't mean this in a facetious way either, but do you think you will be on meds for the rest of your life?
> I don't mean this in a facetious way at all. I am just wondering what you are here for, if you have no intentions of ever touching a psychiatric med again so long as you live ?
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> Linkadge
Posted by Nezirov on July 2, 2005, at 0:55:31
In reply to Re: personally i hope people listen to him..., posted by flmm on July 1, 2005, at 21:31:24
> I am not stalking Nez, but paranoia is a "symptom"!
It's not my fault that you have paranoia. As I said, try to get a sooner appointment.
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