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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 76. Go back in thread:
Posted by gabbix2 on July 19, 2004, at 12:14:06
In reply to Re: May I disagree with my friends?, posted by partlycloudy on July 19, 2004, at 12:03:01
I agree with you, I'm not even part of the psychological babble crowd really but what I saw was someone looking for a reason to ---------
yet again and it offended me. And I hate having to phrase things this way but if I don't leave out the obvious or speak in a way that makes me feel like a twisted kindergartener I'll get blocked :(
Posted by partlycloudy on July 19, 2004, at 12:23:56
In reply to Re: May I disagree with my friends? » partlycloudy, posted by gabbix2 on July 19, 2004, at 12:14:06
Exactly! We can't even write articulately out of fear of being warned or banned. I can't figure out what point some people are trying to get to, except that it reads like a thinly veiled insult.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 19, 2004, at 12:41:27
In reply to May I disagree with my friends?, posted by TofuEmmy on July 19, 2004, at 10:35:53
You know, I see both aspects of this issue as valid. I do think that a group of us banded together for protection, kind of like circling the wagons. And I think once burned, twice shy (honestly no pun intended at all).
But I also am someone who believes in second chances and the potential in all humans. So I can see Emmy's point as well.
Honestly, what I really feel is sad for a number of reasons. For all who were hurt. For the phenomenon itself, and for the ripples that extend beyond the Psych. board and beyond Babble.
But I also believe in Babble potential, especially because there is a lot that is good here. As there is on other sites.
Just my thoughts,
gg
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 12:41:47
In reply to May I disagree with my friends?, posted by TofuEmmy on July 19, 2004, at 10:35:53
Emmy, I think that there is some validity to what you said. Dr. Bob handled the last situation badly and allowed a lot of people to be really hurt and upset. With an extra kick in the seat to those who were genuinely hurting by giving the unofficial seal of approval to the hurt by not considering it a problem.
This time my buttons weren't pressed, and I wasn't angry or upset. But maybe other people's buttons were pressed, my issues aren't everyone's. And in either case, when you hurt other people, intentionally or not, I think it's incumbent on you to try to make amends before expecting to be greeted warmly. Babblers are a pretty forgiving bunch, and if someone had offended before - probably even intentionally, definitely unintentionally - and came back and said "Hey. I screwed up. I'm sorry. I'd like to try again." I think most people would be (perhaps cautiously) open to it. Didn't that happen with (hmmmm thinking back....) Apperceptor? I'm sorry he isn't posting anymore. (I think I have the poster right). As an outsider in school, I understand the pain involved. But I don't think the two situations are comparable.
Actually, the pain underlying the behavior in question is relatively apparent, to my eyes anyway. As it was with the poster whose posts so resemble Fires. Perhaps the two of them could join up to lobby congress, set up a PAC, post a website, etc. And I'm not being at all sarcastic here. Both people have very strong views, and I'm all for people doing what they think ought to be done. Doing any of those things, to lobby to get psychiatry combined into neurology would be a heck of a lot more effective for them than coming to a board full of interpersonally oriented therapy believers and telling them that they are wrong. Have you ever known anyone to say. "Duh. Of course! Why didn't I see that! I'll drop my beloved therapist and my belief system about who I am at the core of my being immediately, and start writing anti-therapy posts!" The more likely attitude is for people to be more gung ho about their own beliefs.
But all that doesn't offset the fact that innocent bystanders were hurt here. That not all posters who left in distress have come back. That people feel very vulnerable about their therapy and diagnoses, and have to contend with cr*p IRL all the time, and don't want to be ummm.... surprised... where they feel safe. That I feel less safe disclosing, and more likely to keep things to myself.
It's a complex subject, and I can see several sides to it. And I wish Dr. Bob had handled it better - which would have been to *everyone's* benefit. Not just the posters who were hurt but everyone. Dr. Bob didn't do any favors to Fires by his actions. Dr. Bob's is the only side I don't quite get.
I sincerely doubt that the presence of another board has any impact at all on Dr. Bob's decisions. There have been many other boards all along, and splinter groups of Babble as well. Dr. Bob isn't scared his admin decisions will drive people away (which is obvious, isn't it?). And blocking has the same effect it always did. To limit someone's ability to post to Babble, not to the internet at large, not to communicate by email, etc. In fact, he pretty much allows passed on messages to be posted on Babble, as long as it isn't so blatant to be equivilant to a blocked poster posting.
Of course friends can disagree without it affecting a friendship.
(Now, if you really want to be friendly, why don't you extend a personal invitation to Fires to join you at the other site? Where he doesn't have a prior history to contend with?)
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 12:48:22
In reply to May I disagree with my friends?, posted by TofuEmmy on July 19, 2004, at 10:35:53
BTW, I was away from the computer a lot, so my timeline may be incorrect. But wasn't the assertation that one poster was posting under two names, with the naming of names and no real backup or even asking if it was so - a blunt assertation not a question. And the implication that more than one poster was posting under more than one name. Wasn't that relatively early in the sequence of events?
I think that might raise people's protective instincts a bit.
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 12:51:52
In reply to Re: May I disagree with my friends? » TofuEmmy, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 12:48:22
Everyone. A quiet reminder to be aware of the civility guidelines when discussing this.
One of my least favorite parts of Babble is when people get in civility trouble for responding out of pain and hurt.
Posted by TexasChic on July 19, 2004, at 13:04:25
In reply to Re: May I disagree with my friends? » TofuEmmy, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 12:48:22
I just got accused of posting under two names this weekend! I wasn't offended though. I just figured the person had their own reasons for being suspicious.
I'm sorry that people feel bad now (especially you partlycloudy). I really like this place.
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 13:17:41
In reply to Re: May I disagree with my friends?, posted by TexasChic on July 19, 2004, at 13:04:25
I'm glad you weren't offended, and I hope JenStar wasn't. :)
Actually, when he posted his reasons for thinking the two of you were the same poster, I felt kind of sympathetic towards him.
I had a problem a few years back, before Dr. Bob's rule against posting under more name, with thinking that more than one person was the same, for reasons that probably had more to do with me than the poster I was afraid was posting under more than one name. :(
Posted by fayeroe on July 19, 2004, at 13:22:32
In reply to May I disagree with my friends?, posted by TofuEmmy on July 19, 2004, at 10:35:53
>
> What I also find interesting, is that I see a bit more freedom of expression here. I wonder if Bob has noticed how many Babble posters are now also posting on another site? So, where is the power in the ominous "Block" now? So what if you are blocked? Just go to the other site and post! How liberating for the end users, no? How disempowering for Bob? Bob has lost his light saber. How sad.
>
> EmmyWell said, friend! I knew the day would come when someone would make an end run around Bob.
Posted by karen_kay on July 19, 2004, at 13:25:56
In reply to Solidarity, posted by partlycloudy on July 19, 2004, at 9:15:18
i notice that some of my very close friends here, who i respect the most, are the ones that i've had 'spats' with in the past.
i just try to keep in mind through this whole thing that this is a site for mental health, and that all of us have mental health issues, or we wouldn't be here.
is it really fair to try and run someone off. how would we feel if we were in that situation honestly? not trying to start a fight, i'm honestly trying to stay out of this mess... but, jsut something to think about. can't we forgive and just forget? try to jsut start over again? is that a viable option rather than throwing stones and turning someone away?
oh dear, maybe i've said too much.... jsut something to think about... i'm honestly willing to do that. i know i've opened my mouth often here and said (ok, not really said, but typed) things i wish i hadn't (maybe that's not the case, not speaking for anyone of course) but i hope people were willing to forgive me for it. can't we all do the same? i think we've done it for others, haven't we? why not this time? and why the smug smiles when someone leaves? anyone else feel a bit sad about this? i know i do....
go ahead, let me have it.. maybe this post will be what i'm talking about? as in talking too much and hoping for forgiveness? maybe not, but i'm still saying it since no one else is.....
one more thing though.. perhaps we could all learn something from the poster in question... we could learn civility. we could learn restraint. ew could learn about being challenged. we could learn a lot of things. why not? why are we so quick to try and bully? i'll admit i did it too. but, i'll also admit i need to learn form this.
ok, wincing as i hit submit :)
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 13:38:03
In reply to you know what?, posted by karen_kay on July 19, 2004, at 13:25:56
I think forgiveness is great, but it needs to be preceded by the request for forgiveness. Making amends, taking responsibility, etc.
And I don't want to be here if this is a place where I get the opportunity to learn to put up with provocation without letting my buttons be pressed. I'm sure it would be a very healthy thing, like a process group. But you'll notice I don't choose to be in a process group either. If that's what Babble was, I'd be out of here before you could say "Dr. Bob".
I won't share my feelings about whether I'm happy or not to see people go. I'll only say that I'm delighted to see people here if they want to be supportive, educational, etc - regardless of their past behavior. And that I'm a big fan of the block for those who don't share that goal. That's not specific to anyone in particular. Just a general policy statement on my part.
I suppose to be clear on who I am, I should add that when I was picked on in middle school, I felt as much rage towards those who stood by and did nothing as I did towards the bullies. The bullies couldn't have operated without the implicit cooperation of everyone else. And when my mother told me she was expelled for beating up the kids who were tormenting a Japanese child during WWII, I told her that she should be proud of that expulsion and frame that notice and hang it high.
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 13:48:18
In reply to you know what?, posted by karen_kay on July 19, 2004, at 13:25:56
Besides, Fires posted more than once after stating his intention to leave. Actually he has stated his intention to leave several times, and still posted. What makes you think anyone was driven off? This time I mean.
I don't really understand the motivations of a rabidly anti-therapist poster posting on a board devoted to therapy. The only possible point would be to try to convert people to an anti-therapy viewpoint. Unless I'm missing another possible intended result? Which I well may be. Do you think anti-therapist posters are really trying to understand why therapy is helpful and that's why they post on a therapy board? I suppose that's possible... And trying to convert people to an anti-therapy position on a board devoted to therapy is a quixotic proposition at best. Anyone certainly has the right to do it, but I don't see many opportunities for pleasant outcomes to be enjoyed.
But perhaps I'm missing a pleasant outcome?
Now Social is different. A rabidly anti-therapy poster could converse quite sociably on any number of topics. Just as I, a conservative, manage to usually feel at home on this largely liberal board.
Posted by partlycloudy on July 19, 2004, at 13:48:31
In reply to you know what?, posted by karen_kay on July 19, 2004, at 13:25:56
Sorry, but I think the board as a whole already has given second and more chances. Invitations for posters to share their stories (which get the invitee rebuffed or worse, insulted). It really makes for an atmosphere that is completely unsupportive. I too was bullied enough in school to last for the rest of my life. I've been the outsider my entire life. I thought I could be safe here, accepted, supported. There are already posters whose threads I stay away from *which was Dr. Bob's advice* when I was upset the last time.
Also what is going on with someone who posts, gets everybody all riled up, and then backs away, only to return to repeat the action when it's quietened down? Am I paranoid or what???????
Posted by TexasChic on July 19, 2004, at 13:50:48
In reply to Re: May I disagree with my friends? » TexasChic, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 13:17:41
I don't think either one of us was offended. She went on to answer his question about the conflicts he thought he saw in her posts.
I don't understand why everyone thinks he left. I don't see a post of that.
I do understand why pc was upset about the previous confrontation though. Maybe there should be something in the guidelines about questioning the validity of someone's treatment? That's a kind of put down isn't it?
I hope I didn't break any rules saying that.
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 13:51:34
In reply to Re: you know what? » karen_kay, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 13:48:18
I meant to say that I feel largely at home on Social, despite my conservative orientation. But I'd avoid Psycho-Babble Politics at all costs. Because no one would be likely to convert to conservatism because of my brilliant arguments, and it would just lead to bad feelings.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 19, 2004, at 15:28:02
In reply to Re: May I disagree with my friends? » TofuEmmy, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 12:48:22
Well, my buttons weren't pressed on any of these discussions, so I've been looking at it from a distance. I'll try to give my perspective as an outsider.
S(H)e seems to be a bit of a wounded animal, too. The kind that will bite your arm off if you try to get too close. Some need comforting, some are very self proctive. Different ways of reacting to the same feelings.
I started looking at this pretty late, but my first "view" of a therapy thread began with fires' questions about cognitive therapy. (June 5) These questions seemed to be perfecly reasonable, although there was a request that the info about CBT not come from a psychonalist. It seemed to me that he had a really bad experience in therapy.
The biggest mistake I saw in this discourse was that it didn't stay on topic. One person had had a bad experience with analysis and didn't want to discuss it, others felt from that that their own therapy was being attacked. The truth was probably somewhere in the middle. But, when you are emotionally invested in what you are trying to do for yourself it is hard to see another side.
After that it seems that everyone was expecting the worse - and finding it.
I never got the impression fires was anti-therapy, just that he had bad experiences with it. Maybe hi is looking for someone with good experiences? Something to base hope on?
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 16:06:02
In reply to Re: May I disagree with my friends? » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on July 19, 2004, at 15:28:02
I suppose the following posts (among others) led me to think he was anti-therapy - except perhaps for brief CBT therapy. I didn't get the feeling he was asking for reassurances that therapy might help, since he specifically told posters that he doubted that any gains they made were from therapy. But I could be mistaken and maybe he has a deep seated desire for interpersonal connection and a meaningful therapeutic relationship and is merely disappointed that he hasn't been able to achieve what so many other people get so much benefit from. I certainly wouldn't want to leap to any conclusions.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/358820.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/358208.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040603/msgs/354355.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/358814.html
particularly "Because relatively short term therapies are the only ones demonstrated to help Dep. Psychoanalysis has never been shown to help any condition, with the exception of the therapists bank account."And as I said, I'd tend to agree about his pain. And I'm sorry for it. My wish for him would be that he be able to achieve the sort of healing therapeutic relationship that so many of us have found so helpful. And maybe a process group....
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 16:22:07
In reply to Possible trigger » AuntieMel, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 16:06:02
My beef was always with Dr. Bob, far more than Fires. It hurt me that he considered some of the things he said civil. I care too much about Dr. Bob, and only those I care about can hurt me.
So the answer is simple! Quit caring about Dr. Bob, and quit posting about areas I'm vulnerable in. Sort of a shame, since I haven't felt free to comment on many threads when I feel like I could contribute on the topic because I've let Dr. Bob's and Fires cause shame to overwhelm me. But that's the way it goes, and maybe it's better that way anyway. Not feeling safe reduces attachment, and lack of attachment is safe. :)
So maybe I should thank Fires and Dr. Bob instead of being angry?
Posted by TexasChic on July 19, 2004, at 16:33:00
In reply to Ahhhh, it's not worth it., posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 16:22:07
How did Dr. Bob and Fire cause you shame!!?? Without going back through the archives, I feel you've always been very considerate and caring.
I hate that everyone is so upset. I wish I knew what to say to make it better.
:-(
Posted by AuntieMel on July 19, 2004, at 16:41:57
In reply to Ahhhh, it's not worth it., posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 16:22:07
Dinah - did I say anything to trigger you? If so, I certainly didn't mean to.
So, in the spirit of getting along (smiling, really) I'll discontinue with my opinions on this topic. I'm clearly in the minority (still smiling)
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 17:30:55
In reply to Re: Ahhhh, it's not worth it. » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on July 19, 2004, at 16:41:57
Nothing triggered. I'm fine. I just feel like it's not something I want to expend energy on. I've already wasted too much energy on it as it is. I understand why I was upset. I think I'll continue trying to protect others from being similarly upset. But that's it. I don't think Fires will be able to hurt me anymore at all. I imagine Dr. Bob still will. :)
No need to apologize. I am just bowing out, that's all.
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 17:41:11
In reply to Re: Ahhhh, it's not worth it. » Dinah, posted by TexasChic on July 19, 2004, at 16:33:00
Fires is categorically disbelieving of an aspect of my being. And had distressing website addresses to prove his point. It's a sore spot with me because I know how controversial it is. And Dr. Bob didn't think it was uncivil to assert what he asserted. So Fires upset me, and Bob hurt me. That's all.
It's not really worth being upset over, but it is worth being cautious about.
I really appreciate your concern. It's very kind of you, and the sort of thing I love best about Babble. :)
I hope Partlycloudy is still able to find that here, despite other factors.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 19, 2004, at 17:49:13
In reply to Possible trigger » AuntieMel, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 16:06:02
OK, I will answer after all. Just can't stop myself, I guess.
I was perhaps trying too hard before to keep in civility guidelines, and ended up being vague instead. And PLEASE, PLEASE don't think for a second that I'm taking sides. I'm way too new here to do that, not knowing all the history and all, and wouldn't do it even if I did.
I'm just cursed with seeing both sides of any issue. Believe me, my life would be a whole lot simpler if I could have an opinion and stick to it.
And I wouldn't dream of trying to judge ANYONE here. I just don't have enough information about what is going on in their life currently or where they are in trying to get better.
Yes, I agree that some of the links you gave were over the top. But, I just can't take them out of context.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/358820.html
At the beginning of the thread (started by someone that was wondering if therapy was making her worse) he seemed to me at least that he was trying to be supportive, share his experience and asked her to try to consider medication if she is feeling suicidal. That seems reasonable to me. But it was immediately followed by a "do not post to me" and the whole thing went downhill from there.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/358403.html==============================================
>
>http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/358208.html
>
Well, I for sure had problems with all the links provided here were from skeptic.com. I would have liked to see something from a trade journal.However, he also mentions that he has been criticized elsewhere for disagreeing. Which has made me (until now) way overly careful NOT to disagree. This, in my opinion, isn't helpful - to me at least. I would love for someone to disagree with me and (logically) show me other things to consider. If I had all the answers I wouldn't be here.
Then later he thanked someone for posting something that wasn't anti-therapy, but did talk about reasonable precautions.Thank you for having the courage to say what you did:
"Not all Ts are good and not all good Ts are right for every person. It can be difficult to find a T that is both good and right for you. It seems that you never find one what was. Research shows that depression is best treated by a combination of medication and talk therapy. I think of it like diabetes, insulin compensates for that biological problem ..."Wonderful
=================================================
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040603/msgs/354355.html
>
Highly sarcastic, in my opinion. Uncalled for.=================================================
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/358814.html
> particularly "Because relatively short term therapies are the only ones demonstrated to help Dep. Psychoanalysis has never been shown to help any condition, with the exception of the therapists bank account."Agreed. But isn't it possible that by then anything would have become a p**sing match?
To be honest (hopefully not brutally) I think from what I've read that if blame MUST be assigned that there is plenty to go around. And two (or 20) wrongs still don't make a right.
But all of that happened, and can't be changed now.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 19, 2004, at 17:56:56
In reply to Re: Ahhhh, it's not worth it. » AuntieMel, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2004, at 17:30:55
Cross posting again (grin)
I agree with you on that one! I think everyone has used much, much, much more energy than needed.
And, again, please don't feel offended by anything I say. I feel like the little kid wanting everyone to just get along! And my natural tendancy to try to mediate, even when I know I shouldn't.
I'm not sure what aspect of your being is being questioned. I must have missed something. Was it when he said something about DID? I have to admit that one went totally over my head.
Peace??
Posted by partlycloudy on July 19, 2004, at 18:09:08
In reply to Solidarity, posted by partlycloudy on July 19, 2004, at 9:15:18
I stand by my original post. I'm not going anywhere (away from Babble, that is)!
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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