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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gabbix2 on December 24, 2003, at 16:49:52
In reply to Re: I'm awful but...., posted by octopusprime on December 24, 2003, at 16:27:24
You know thats funny, I was thinking of that exact story, although- that was the reverse sort of,where everyone had to make themselves equally
"handicapped"
I'm not for extreme Political Correctness for sure but I don't find "lookism" much different than racism. It hit a nerve.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 24, 2003, at 17:30:05
In reply to Re: I'm awful but.... » octopusprime, posted by gabbix2 on December 24, 2003, at 16:49:52
Obviously I need a lesson from Larry... I suppose I didn't put enough thought into the wording of my last post. And I didn't mean for it to come across the way it did.
Let's see if I can attempt ( a poor attempt at best) damage control.
I want the best for my daddy/therapist. And I envisioned his wife to be perfect, much like him. Not in looks, but in personality and character. But, since I saw her picture, that is the only thing that I have to go on.
Not to say that she isn't attractive (well in all honesty she isn't in my taste. Not like I'd want for him.), but she just doesn't seem to be his type. She isn't particularly stunning, as I would envision her to be. Does this make sense?I didn't mean to "hit a nerve" and I'm against any type of prejudice, in any sense of the matter. I never realized that my train of thought could be interpreted that way. Maybe that's something I should think about. But, again her picture is all I have to go on.
Posted by octopusprime on December 24, 2003, at 18:35:31
In reply to Not my intention., posted by Karen_kay on December 24, 2003, at 17:30:05
yeah sorry karen_kay, i realize we did go off on a little tangent.
i have a totally crackpot theory on marriage (since i've never been married, i know squat on the subject):
people do wind up marrying "equals"since your therapist/daddy is nice looking and sharp, he must be flawed in some other way, and his wife is strong in the area he is flawed. she could be an emotional bedrock, and your therapist could have emotional issues (abandonment?) up the wazoo. or a drug habit. or something else that causes insecurity, so that he can have a plain looking wife that's stable and secure.
it's a complement thing. on the balance, i think marriage partners have to be complementary.
<ends crackpot theory>
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2003, at 19:44:23
In reply to I'm awful but...., posted by Karen_kay on December 24, 2003, at 15:19:43
I chose my husband in high school. He was smart and funny, but not the most gorgeous guy in school. He was a bit overweight, his complexion was teen-agey, and the seventies hairstyles and clothes didn't suit him. I was not a beauty, but I had a terrific body and nice beautifully tanned skin. We were probably equal in dating desirability I guess, because everyone liked his personality so much.
Now twentyfive years later, he is really attractive. His complexion cleared, he slimmed down, and his thick wavy hair would be the envy of any woman. While I gained weight which did not suit my face *at all*, and I lost my best asset, my nice well proportioned body. Even my skin grew moles and skin flaps. Anyone looking at us now would wonder what on earth he married me for. He could do a heck of a lot better.
Fortunately, I think he still sees me as I was back then. And fortunately, I see him as he is now. :) Which is mainly important to me because my son was lucky enough to inherit his looks and hair.
On the other hand, his outgoing, friendly, and humorous personality hid some qualities that cause me a great deal of grief. No one of course looking at our pictures would see that.
So you can't really tell what's going on from photos.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 24, 2003, at 20:22:55
In reply to Re: I'm awful but.... » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2003, at 19:44:23
So you can't really tell what's going on from photos
So true indeed!
I'd never thought of it like that. I guess I just tend to think that since I see him on a weekly basis he has always looked as he does now. And since I've only seen the pictures of her, that is what she always looks like.
You told a lovely story! I'm sure that's another reason why your husband's still in love with you!
Thank you for putting things in perspective for me. I'm sure his wife is very lovely now, but I don't think I'm going to take another look at the pictures.
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 24, 2003, at 21:52:26
In reply to Re: I'm awful but.... » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2003, at 19:44:23
> Now twentyfive years later, he is really attractive. His complexion cleared, he slimmed down, and his thick wavy hair would be the envy of any woman.
<My partner is the same way. He is so gorgeous. He gets better looking as he ages.
> While I gained weight which did not suit my face *at all*, and I lost my best asset, my nice well proportioned body. Even my skin grew moles and skin flaps. Anyone looking at us now would wonder what on earth he married me for. He could do a heck of a lot better.
<I know what you mean. I can't believe how I look with him. Oh well. We lose it all eventually.
> So you can't really tell what's going on from photos.
< I see old photos of myself and I wonder who I was. That is so strange. I am in awe of my own lost beauty.Life is so transitory. Beauty so fleeting. Health so important. I may not look the greatest but I can walk. I am alive.
I know I will be judged by how I look...oh well.
Posted by gabbix2 on December 24, 2003, at 23:26:11
In reply to I'm awful but...., posted by Karen_kay on December 24, 2003, at 15:19:43
>And puuuulease don't give me the crap about the >nice personality or looking inside. A paper bag >will only get a person so far. Ouch!
IT was that part that got me..
I felt if that comment were made about any other quality of which someone had no control, it probably wouldn't have been made.
Looks seem to be the last moderately allowable prejudice. Oh to have the unmitigated gall of being born plain..
or to stay in love with someone who is plain, when you could trade her in for a newer younger model...
That being said, I really do enjoy reading your posts they are vibrant and witty, like I said it was this one that struck a nerve.And no I'm not bitter, I'm fortunate enough to not
need a "bag" I also know I'm going to age, and not get whistled at anymore.
I think women with substance, brains, confidence and who support other women are very sexy, whether they take 'pretty' pictures or not.
I'm glad there are men out there who can see that too.
Posted by sb417 on December 25, 2003, at 0:18:40
In reply to Not my intention., posted by Karen_kay on December 24, 2003, at 17:30:05
> >> I want the best for my daddy/therapist.
> Not to say that she isn't attractive (well in all honesty she isn't in my taste. Not like I'd want for him.), but she just doesn't seem to be his type.
>
*************************************************
Are you his type? Would you be "the best" for him? Perhaps you should discuss this with him. Perhaps it will lead to a discussion of your feelings of envy, jealousy, etc.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 25, 2003, at 1:16:29
In reply to Re: I'm awful but...., posted by gabbix2 on December 24, 2003, at 23:26:11
And no I'm not bitter
* I wouldn't suggest for a second that you were being bitter.
I can see how my post came across as offensive.
And insensitive. I'm in a foul mood. Can't help that right now. Sorry about it.A paper bag will only get a person so far. Ouch!
*That was a joke. Obviously a poor attempt at humor. Apparently my sense of humor doesn't appeal to everyone and that's fine. I appologize.
That being said, I really do enjoy reading your posts they are vibrant and witty, like I said it was this one that struck a nerve.
*Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm sorry that I struck a nerve. That wasn't my intention. I was looking for a new perspective, which Dinah gave me.
I'm glad there are men out there who can see that too.
*I too am glad, as my old man sees it in me everyday!
Posted by jay on December 25, 2003, at 1:26:09
In reply to Not my intention., posted by Karen_kay on December 24, 2003, at 17:30:05
Well...I just think a picture is superficial, regardless of clichés. The way I have fallen, usually, in love with people is to develop a friendship, and often the "physical" attraction becomes more neutral over time, meanwhile the deeper sides of our personalities come out. It takes time...month's and an odd time into years. I think I've got a very good understanding of it all also because I am a social worker. Those less-noticeable things are quite noticeable to me. Don't forget, there is the "average" looking, which the majority of us fall into. Different hearts beat on different strings. I have thinning hair and put on a few pounds, but I still dress well, use nice cologne, and I can turn a head if the chemistry is *right*. Anyhow...IMHO...
Jay
Posted by shar on December 25, 2003, at 2:03:11
In reply to I'm awful but...., posted by Karen_kay on December 24, 2003, at 15:19:43
"Common looking people are the best in the world: that is the reason the Lord makes so many of them." Lincoln and the Civil War In the Diaries and Letters of John Hay selected by Tyler Dennett (Da Capo Press, New York, 1988), p. 143.
If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one?
Abraham Lincoln"I have stepped out upon this platform that I may see you and that you may see me, and in the arrangement I have the best of the bargain."
The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Remarks at Painesville, Ohio" (February 16, 1861), p. 218.>>Lincoln wasn't a hunk, but he sure had a lot of substance. Maybe your T's wife has a lot of substance.
Shar
Posted by tabitha on December 25, 2003, at 2:48:26
In reply to I'm awful but...., posted by Karen_kay on December 24, 2003, at 15:19:43
Errr... one other idea I don't think anyone suggested.. is it possible you're overestimating his relative physical attractiveness because you look up to him?
I know when I have a crush on a guy I think he's gorgeous, but I've had friends disagree with some of my assessments. In most cases I can look back and see the guy was more average than he looked to me at the time. I swear a few of 'em were really cute though.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 25, 2003, at 6:39:04
In reply to Re: I'm awful but.... » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on December 24, 2003, at 20:22:55
One thing I have learnt from years online..
never, ever judge someone from a photo. Its not soemthing I could even dream of doing..
How can one even begin to judge what someone might be like simply from a picture of their shell?? That sall our bodies are, shells.
But some people are alot more bothered by looks I guess.. Me, I judge someone on their aura, on their kindness, their honesty etc.. Thats one good thing about the net.. I get to know the *real* person, and they get to know me, before they see me physicaly and start making judgements about my physical nature.
I think its incredibly shallow to judge from a physical aspect.. And I wouldn't even bother being friends with someone who were to do that, let alone marry them or love them.
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 25, 2003, at 6:41:03
In reply to life has a way of changing the picture, posted by Jai Narayan on December 24, 2003, at 21:52:26
"I know I will be judged by how I look...oh well."
This is soemthing I have worke don heavily in therapy.. my agorphobia stemmed from the thought that people will judge me for the way I look, and will think things about me that aren't true for that..
I guess this has just totally bought it back to me that there are people out there that will judge me, and dismiss me, before even knowing a single thing about who or what I am.
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on December 25, 2003, at 8:33:30
In reply to Re: I'm awful but.... » Karen_kay, posted by shar on December 25, 2003, at 2:03:11
Lincoln wasn't a hunk???!!!! :O And here I was thinking he was waaaaay hunkier than Russell Crowe. ;)
Thanks for the quotes, Shar. Abraham Lincoln is one of my all time favorites. Right up there with Moses and William Marshall. (I still haven't managed to read "Lincoln's Virtues" though, which is gathering dust on my bedside table.)
Posted by Dinah on December 25, 2003, at 8:37:03
In reply to life has a way of changing the picture, posted by Jai Narayan on December 24, 2003, at 21:52:26
> < I see old photos of myself and I wonder who I was. That is so strange. I am in awe of my own lost beauty.
I never saw myself as being attractive then. But looking back, my face was sort of pretty. One of my all time favorite quotes was from the wife of a good friend, looking through his old photos "Oh! You used to be pretty!". Lol.
Most of the time, I have a decent sense of humor about it all.
Posted by Dinah on December 25, 2003, at 8:37:37
In reply to Re: life has a way of changing the picture, posted by Dinah on December 25, 2003, at 8:37:03
Posted by sb417 on December 25, 2003, at 9:15:52
In reply to You know.., posted by NikkiT2 on December 25, 2003, at 6:39:04
> >>> Thats one good thing about the net.. I get to know the *real* person, and they get to know me, before they see me physicaly and start making judgements about my physical nature.
>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Nikki,
Regarding your comments about meeting people on the Internet. . .To some extent I agree with you, but I've had some bad experiences, so I'm trying to be more careful. Many people misrepresent themselves over the Internet. They have their "cyber-personalities," and then they have their real personalities. Sometimes it's obvious from their posts or e-mails that they are not who or what they claim to be. For example, one person I met online told me she was a medical/science writer, but her writing was the worst I'd ever seen. At first, I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I thought she might be typing quickly and not proofreading. After a while, however, it became clear that she didn't know the most basic biology. How could a medical/science writer not know facts from introductory biology? I don't think she misrepresented herself maliciously. I think her cyber-personality was the person she wanted to be. Whatever the case, it's awfully difficult to have a friendship with someone who lies to themselves and to others. I've met quite a few people on message boards and newsgroups who claim to be professionals or experts in their fields, but they spend hundreds of hours a week posting messages on the Internet. How is it possible for real physicians, scientists or other professionals to spend most of their waking hours on message boards? I wouldn't feel confident in my doctors if I knew they were hanging out on message boards all day long. You have to be very careful with Internet relationships. If the pieces don't fit together on the Internet, you can be sure they aren't going to fit together in real life.
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 25, 2003, at 9:21:27
In reply to Re: life has a way of changing the picture, posted by Dinah on December 25, 2003, at 8:37:03
> > < I see old photos of myself and I wonder who I was. That is so strange. I am in awe of my own lost beauty.
<the beauty I see that is gone: my single chin...now I have a double. My skin...Oh my.When I was a child I wanted to be pretty and I would ask my mother about beauty.
She would say:"There are people who look pretty when I first meet them. Then I get to know them and their beauty fades.
There others who are not pretty but when I get to know them they become beautiful because of an inner beauty.">One of my all time favorite quotes was from the wife of a good friend, looking through his old photos "Oh! You used to be pretty!".
<I like the truth of the matter...
our hearts and souls have a stunning beauty that can transform any outer shell we have to wear while on this planet.
I now know that the beauty is radiating from within.
I have often thought about the fact I have never seen any of you in person and I can see beauty come shining from a kind, loving and up lifting posting.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 25, 2003, at 10:13:34
In reply to Re: You know.. » NikkiT2, posted by sb417 on December 25, 2003, at 9:15:52
Oh yeah.. I know about that, believe me!! *l* But the people I meet up with, and those I become close friends with, I get to know over a number of years online.. I never rush into things these days! *l*
The best friends I have in the world I have as online friends.. we know each other in real life too, but my closest friend lives 3000 miles away from me!! *l* I've been online so long now, I've come across most tricks I think *l*
Nikki x
Posted by Karen_kay on December 25, 2003, at 11:36:58
In reply to Re: I'm awful but.... » Karen_kay, posted by tabitha on December 25, 2003, at 2:48:26
is it possible you're overestimating his relative physical attractiveness because you look up to him?
*Hmmmm...me, wrong? Yes, in fact that is quite possible. Considering the fact that I tend to develope crushes on authority figures (ie. bosses, doctors, ect) on a fairly regular basis. And my crushes aren't based on looks or physical attributes, they're based soley on presonality, charm, and life experience. I suppose this is why I tend to fall for older men. I think the reason I was put off by her picture is because I expected to see him with a younger woman. Maybe it is my own bias. Perhaps I am prejudice. Maybe I'm just not a nice person. I never claimed to be, now did I. Anyway, I didn't mean to cause such an uproar.
And I didn't mean to suggest that I walk around all day, everyday judging people based on the way they look. By no means do I do that. I'm bitter that my therapist is married. I'm a little bit bitter that he isn't married to who *I think* is the best looking woman in the world. I guess it is presumptuous of me to think I could choose a more fitting mate for him. But, at the time I just didn't think things added up.So, go ahead. Let me have it :)
Posted by Karen_kay on December 25, 2003, at 11:48:01
In reply to Re: life has a way of changing the picture » Jai Narayan, posted by NikkiT2 on December 25, 2003, at 6:41:03
This is soemthing I have worke don heavily in therapy.. my agorphobia stemmed from the thought that people will judge me for the way I look, and will think things about me that aren't true for that..
I guess this has just totally bought it back to me that there are people out there that will judge me, and dismiss me, before even knowing a single thing about who or what I am.
*Are you suggesting that I would do that?
In all honesty, I would be thrilled to meet his wife in person. And if I were to meet her, I would be open, caring and receptive. Everyone has something wonderful to offer. And I love to just listen to other's stories. And everyone is lovely in their own way. But, she, in my opinion, is not what I'd define as conventional beauty. There must be something there. He did marry her. I just want to know what. The problem is that I can't because he is my therapist. But, that doesn't mean I would dismiss her, or anyone else for that matter.And it's not that I'm judging her. I'm judging him.
Posted by shar on December 25, 2003, at 12:10:14
In reply to Re: I'm awful but...., posted by Karen_kay on December 25, 2003, at 11:36:58
KK,
I'm just curious how old you are? And, of course as always, you don't have to answer that!!I know my perspective on 'attractiveness' has changed a great deal when I compare what I thought in my 20's vs. what I think now (past the half century mark).
And, this is not for you specifically, but I'd like to note a trend (at least in the USA) in general. I went through a period in my early 30's where I started doing some of the conventional things aimed toward attractiveness: got contacts, a real hair style, wore some make up, etc. A big change for me. I knew there were always people who thought I was pretty, but I made it hard for them to see it (none of the conventional methods used to make it apparent) because I wanted to be liked for myself.
Anyhow, after my 'conversion' I couldn't believe the difference with which I was treated by almost everybody--from the man/woman at the cash register, to being called on in class, to people I'd known for years. I was (I think) very much the same me; I can remember looking behind me when people would say nice things, or strangers would smile big at me...like, who are they aiming that at?
I was in grad school, and once a fellow classmate said "ha, ha, ha--I saw you coming up the escalator and thought "Who is that beautiful woman?" and then..."Oh, it's just Sharyn." And, to me, that was a real compliment. Because who he knew and liked was just regular old me.
So--the transformation lasted a little while, but what a huge hassle! I was eventually back in glasses with no makeup, and happier that way.
I don't have a "Let you have it" to give you. You are definitely entitled to your own thoughts and feelings, and really they aren't any better or worse than anybody else's. Tho they may be different.
Shar
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 25, 2003, at 12:39:01
In reply to Re: I'm awful but...., posted by Karen_kay on December 25, 2003, at 11:36:58
Maybe I'm just not a nice person.
<I think you are.
I never claimed to be, now did I. Anyway, I didn't mean to cause such an uproar.
<It's the interesting posts that gather all the comments.
> So, go ahead. Let me have it :)
< You are so funny. I like that approach, now if I said "Let me have it." the whole psycho babble site would be shut down for incivility.
Did you see where I posted..."I need a hug" and someone said "that's not all you need."
the more I play that out in my head the more painful it seems. If I ever wanted to feel real bad...there are a few people that would love to accommodate me. I guess I got carried away.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 25, 2003, at 14:07:03
In reply to Re: I'm awful but.... » Karen_kay, posted by shar on December 25, 2003, at 12:10:14
how old you are
*I'm 24, so of course everyone is going to say "It's because I'm young and immature. I beg to differ.my perspective on 'attractiveness'
*My personal perspective on attractiveness is such:
for men: in general I do not find men my age atttactive, though I am in a long term relationship with my boyfriend who is a year older than I am. But, I tend to find that older men are more towards my preference. I look more towards body language and a gentle smile than physical characteristics and facial features any day.
But, I tend to think that others judge me based on how I look. And I rely too heavily on making myself up for others (to the point that I change my clothes at least 3 times a day, I prefer to call it a quirk-my shrink has other opinions). That's a fault I have. But, I don't judge others based on what they look like. I think it stems from the fact that I want to make others comfortable. Or maybe I don't? Not sure really... But, I can't even check the mail without putting makeup on."Who is that beautiful woman?" and then..."Oh, it's just Sharyn."
*Wow! What a lovely compliment! I wish I could get to the point where I could leave my house without getting all dolled up, but alas, I'm not ready. I subscribe to the notion that if I look like I have it together, then I can fool myself and others into thinking I do. And I'm not ready to let that fantasy go just yet either. Sometimes that's all I have to hold onto. If it gets me through the day, why not?And I don't think I'm all that attractive by any means. I'm not sitting here in judgement of her thinking, "Well, I'm much better looking than she is. He should be with me instead of her." It isn't like that at all. Maybe it is my own insecurities about myself.
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