![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by EscherDementian on November 5, 2003, at 2:13:28
Femlite~ I've been gone so long i can't find the actual date/post, but you wrote this ages ago:
> Do you always babble so late. Are you an insomniac?
> What part of the country do you hail from?
> You dont have to answer that of course.
>
> Was your screen name inspired by the artist?
> Cio
>HELLO FEMLITE! :)
So sorry-- i had to leave unexpectedly, and haven't returned until just last night. Hello hello hello hello! How have you been this past 2 (or 3 weeks?) ?
Yes, i have been an "insomniac" since the beginning of my life. i put that in quotes, because i'm not sure that is what's actually going on with me -at least not in the standard classical sense... but yes, the deepest hours of night has always been the most natural and my best time to be awake. I get a little overloaded during the day. Awareness is more comfortable and reaches further at night. Consciousness seems more quiet when nearly all people are sleeping. When i was a child i called it "The energy in the air is quiet". That's when i can be completely present and connect with the world. Also when i have the most energy, and feel most comfortable.
The Pacific Northwest is home for me... the tall tree forests, feeling of the natural water places and the taste of the air is compass "center" to me. The three northern coastal states are where i've lived and always returned to.
And you?
And what inspired your name, too?
Yes, the artist M.C.Escher was the inspiration for the first part of my 'screen name'. The second part has to do with, well, quantum physics, "forth dementia", and -it's a long story.
Or maybe not long but _convoluted_ ;)
The first babble i posted, i called myself Quixote. That also fits me RL, 'normally' (what's THAT?) but at the time i was having ADD and med issues. You've seen M.C.Escher's metamorphoses and simultaneous Relativity graphics? i _lived_ there. LOLWell, i'd best be going, i've got two more posts to work on (maybe 3)!
Wasn't that in the title of your last post to me? :)See you in the wee hours~~
Escher
Posted by femlite on November 6, 2003, at 18:20:29
In reply to An overdue response for Femlite!, posted by EscherDementian on November 5, 2003, at 2:13:28
> HELLO FEMLITE! :)
Are you a A.A. Milne fan?
That greeting has a Tigger ring to it, and the ending "best be going now" has a Pooh (smacking his honey filled lips) feel to it?I love Eyore, he's so neurotic!
My favorite story is when Pooh and Piglet decide to build Eyore a house. My SO does a great Eyore imitation. We love to read the stories to each other.
> So sorry-- i had to leave unexpectedly, and haven't returned until just last night. Hello hello hello hello! How have you been this past 2 (or 3 weeks?) ?
Did you go on holiday? I hope so.
In a word, bipolar. Ive been searching for a new pdoc. I "think" I might have finally landed a keeper. Only one visit, but so far so good, he hasnt called me any names yet :)
Ive been very busy complaining about pdocs on the med board and Dr Bob, in a generous mood has not re-directed me.If Im going to be on one side of the mental health industry, the other side is going to know it. I just can't help myself. For petes sake, even the AMA is looking down their nose at the psychiatric patient doctor protocol, and thats pretty telling. As if the AMA was doing any better.
> Yes, i have been an "insomniac" since the beginning of my life. i put that in quotes, because i'm not sure that is what's actually going on with me -at least not in the standard classical sense... but yes, the deepest hours of night has always been the most natural and my best time to be awake. I get a little overloaded during the day. Awareness is more comfortable and reaches further at night. Consciousness seems more quiet when nearly all people are sleeping. When i was a child i called it "The energy in the air is quiet". That's when i can be completely present and connect with the world. Also when i have the most energy, and feel most comfortable.
I know the feeling, but cant afford the luxury with chilens, getting me up for breakfast. But sometimes it happens beyond my control. Of course thats what their medicating me for;)
> The Pacific Northwest is home for me... the tall tree forests, feeling of the natural water places and the taste of the air is compass "center" to me. The three northern coastal states are where i've lived and always returned to.
>
> And you?
I am quite land locked in the midwest. But I do have lovely rolling hills out side my window.
> And what inspired your name, too?
Man is the glory of God, but woman is the glory of man, a scripture verse. The way it speaks to me is, women are the shining crown of creation, the earthreal, the ephmeral part.We are the prettier sex, but I am prejudice. Truely, women, it seems, are softer, curvier, more colorful, more nurturing and in general more interesting (to everyone) to look at.
Seriously, I hope, for myself, to be by my very female nature, a kindness, and in some way a comfort to those who intersect my path. (This is, of course, my aspiration, and for others to judge)
> Yes, the artist M.C.Escher was the inspiration for the first part of my 'screen name'. The second part has to do with, well, quantum physics, "forth dementia",
Im glad it isnt related to dementia the disease, I was hoping you didnt feel so bad about yourself.Do you enjoy physics?
Ive really come to appreciate the "hard sciences" after a few semesters studying sociology.
My 12 year old daughter loves physics. Im so pleased. It seems quite common now days for girls to feel they are "bad" at science.
and -it's a long story.
> Or maybe not long but _convoluted_ ;)
> The first babble i posted, i called myself Quixote.
(that sounds like my moniker too, jousting medical industry windmills)
>That also fits me RL, 'normally' (what's THAT?) but at the time i was having ADD and med issues.Are you still struggling with ADD?
You've seen M.C.Escher's metamorphoses and simultaneous Relativity graphics? i _lived_ there. LOLPoor you! I have motion sickness and get dizzy just looking at those prints!
> Well, i'd best be going, i've got two more posts to work on (maybe 3)!
> Wasn't that in the title of your last post to me? :)
>
> See you in the wee hours~~
> Escher
Thank you for the lovely post. (And I look forward, if in your kindness, you grant me 2 more. ;-}
femlite
Posted by EscherDementian on November 7, 2003, at 10:51:31
In reply to Re: An overdue response for Femlite! » EscherDementian, posted by femlite on November 6, 2003, at 18:20:29
>
> Are you a A.A. Milne fan?
the ending "best be going now" has a Pooh (smacking his honey filled lips) feel to it?*laugh* that put a smile on my face...
No, not so much Pooh, because of the marketing and modern cartoons, etc., but i DO have and have loved (and even related with a tearful smile once or fifty times) the classic A.A.Milne books... with the original illustrations.> I love Eyore, he's so neurotic!
> My favorite story is when Pooh and Piglet decide to build Eyore a house. My SO does a great Eyore imitation. We love to read the stories to each other.Oh Yes! Eyore! *sigh* for some reason i think of "The Last Unicorn" by Peter S. Beale...
Reading to each other is SO PRECIOUS KEWL. My SO and i used to read "The Little Prince" by Antoine De Saint-Exupery to each other.
And sad erotic love poems. Ancient Chinese ones have interesting presence... or check out "This Is My Beloved" by Walter Benton
> In a word, bipolar. Ive been searching for a new pdoc. I "think" I might have finally landed a keeper. Only one visit, but so far so good, he hasnt called me any names yet :)Called you any names!!!???
*snicker mischeviously* Like what?> Ive been very busy complaining about pdocs on the med board and Dr Bob, in a generous mood has not re-directed me.
SH-h-h-h! Now he'll notice!> If Im going to be on one side of the mental health industry, the other side is going to know it. I just can't help myself. For petes sake, even the AMA is looking down their nose at the psychiatric patient doctor protocol, and thats pretty telling. As if the AMA was doing any better.
Personally, i love the Red Queen's solution: "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"
;)>Of course thats what their medicating me for ;)
Don't forget: "Duct tape fixes EVERYTHING"...but i'm still trying to figure out how to apply it... LOL
> I am quite land locked in the midwest. But I do have lovely rolling hills out side my window.
Is it snowing there? My SO's grandma is in NorthDakota and says she's sick of winter already! *boggle*
Here, the leaves are changed to reds and oranges but haven't fallen yet. It's beautiful.
> > And what inspired your name, too?
> Man is the glory of God, but woman is the glory of man, a scripture verse. The way it speaks to me is, women are the shining crown of creation, the earthreal, the ephmeral part.Are you very religious? Christian?
> We are the prettier sex, but I am prejudice. Truely, women, it seems, are softer, curvier, more colorful, more nurturing and in general more interesting (to everyone) to look at.
> Seriously, I hope, for myself, to be by my very female nature, a kindness, and in some way a comfort to those who intersect my path. (This is, of course, my aspiration, and for others to judge)Or not judge at all...
> Im glad it isnt related to dementia the disease, I was hoping you didnt feel so bad about yourself.No, just a play on words... ;)
> Do you enjoy physics?Immensely! Theory and laws, but not the math. Especially quantum and the newest theories & discoveries. The older classic physics, i always read really fun humour into it from abstract life.
> Ive really come to appreciate the "hard sciences" after a few semesters studying sociology.
> My 12 year old daughter loves physics. Im so pleased. It seems quite common now days for girls to feel they are "bad" at science.Ever read "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav ??
>jousting medical industry windmills
I LOVE that analogy! Hi-ho, Quixote!! (May i quote you sometime?)
> Are you still struggling with ADD?
*laugh* Still jousting medical industry windmills...
Actually i prefer to have both 'treated' and 'non-altered' thought processes --at different times for different reasons. But i can get too overwhelmed by simultaneous experiencing/thinking sometimes... or too 'controlled' by what i laughingly call (my Adderall pills) "Nazi time coagulators".>(And I look forward, if in your kindness, you grant me 2 more. ;-}
> femlite
Forth Dementia, duplicating myself in triplicate-- Coming right up! ;)
Escher
Posted by DSCH on November 7, 2003, at 21:35:57
In reply to Re: Eyore and Last Unicorns, posted by EscherDementian on November 7, 2003, at 10:51:31
> > Do you enjoy physics?
>
> Immensely! Theory and laws, but not the math. Especially quantum and the newest theories & discoveries. The older classic physics, i always read really fun humour into it from abstract life.
>
> > Ive really come to appreciate the "hard sciences" after a few semesters studying sociology.
> > My 12 year old daughter loves physics. Im so pleased. It seems quite common now days for girls to feel they are "bad" at science.
>
> Ever read "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav ??If I may break in here, I would heartily recommend "The Cosmic Code" by Heinz Pagels and "Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene. Both assume virtually no prior knowledge but take you fairly deep.
"The Dreams of Reason" by Heinz Pagels and "Complexity: The Emerging Science..." by Waldrop are good if you are into that non-linear chaotic stuff. DoR also has fascinating discussions on the nature of mind and the philosophy of science.
Posted by DSCH on November 7, 2003, at 21:43:03
In reply to Re: Eyore and Last Unicorns, posted by EscherDementian on November 7, 2003, at 10:51:31
I also admire Stuart Kauffman.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20031031/msgs/276136.htmlStarted out as a playwright, gets an MD, then goes on to model how cells could have evolved from the primordial soup. :-)
Posted by EscherDementian on November 9, 2003, at 9:46:33
In reply to Good books on QM, string theory, and complexity » EscherDementian, posted by DSCH on November 7, 2003, at 21:35:57
Hej DCSH, i was wondering if you'd turn up again.
>If I may break in here, I would heartily recommend "The Cosmic Code" by Heinz Pagels and "Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene. Both assume virtually no prior knowledge but take you fairly deep.
>"The Dreams of Reason" by Heinz Pagels
Been there, done that, stained the t-shirt... ;)
Actually, been watching 'Elegant Universe' on PBS.>and "Complexity: The Emerging Science..." by Waldrop are good if you are into that non-linear chaotic stuff. DoR also has fascinating discussions on the nature of mind and the philosophy of science.
Will look into "Complexity"...
A favorite author of mine (Do you know his books? If not, a mind like yours might enjoy these~) is Douglas Hofstadter:
"Godel, Escher, Bach"
"The Mind's I"
"Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies" (Computer Models of the Fundamantal Mechanisms of Thought~~ it's another one from the Fluid Analogies Research Group)Another goodie is "Einstein's Space & Van Gogh's Sky (Physical Reality and Beyond)" by Lawrence LeShan and Henry Margenau...
Oh, he*l, as long as we're sharing/exchanging... and come to think of it, you DSCH, have probably already read this one~ because one of your past posts reminded me of it:
"The Cosmic Serpent -DNA and the Origins of Knowledge- " ...(We're going to get re-directed to PB Books, aren't we? *sigh*)
Good to 'see you',
Escher
Posted by DSCH on November 9, 2003, at 13:57:13
In reply to DSCH, posted by EscherDementian on November 9, 2003, at 9:46:33
> Hej DCSH, i was wondering if you'd turn up again.
Hej? Are you perchance Dutch or German? ;-)
As for 'turning up', I'll do so when I am called, normally I do not usually feel so much complusion to enter into threads on social. ;-)
> Oh, he*l, as long as we're sharing/exchanging... and come to think of it, you DSCH, have probably already read this one~ because one of your past posts reminded me of it:
> "The Cosmic Serpent -DNA and the Origins of Knowledge- " ...Nope. Strangely there aren't all that many books I have read cover to cover. However I grab bits and pieces that are interrelated all over the place (how's that for an ADD trait?). I am fairly convinced that philosophical materialism is quite true. However I am not a die hard genetic determinist as it seems to me the brain has a degree of plasticity. I also believe QM points to there being a fundamental degree of stochasticism/probabilistic function of the universe (probably introduced at the level where spacetime ends up getting quantized itself... a question that only seems to be dodged by string theory, which has been developed classically). I think complete continuity in the physical and mathematic realms is a comforting illusion.
Anyway, which posts of mine sparked this connection?
> (We're going to get re-directed to PB Books, aren't we? *sigh*)
>
> Good to 'see you',
> EscherLikewise :-)
DSCH
Posted by femlite on November 9, 2003, at 23:49:17
In reply to Re: Eyore and Last Unicorns, posted by EscherDementian on November 7, 2003, at 10:51:31
>
> *laugh* that put a smile on my face...
> No, not so much Pooh, because of the marketing and modern cartoons, etc., but i DO have and have loved (and even related with a tearful smile once or fifty times) the classic A.A.Milne books... with the original illustrations.Oh! Those of course are the best and the humor... my hubby and I would read them to our infant daughter, and roll with laughter at the droll and british sense of wit. She didint get the jokes but she loved the characters all the same. "When We Were Six" Very much taught her to love poetry and feel unbound in her imagiantion for self made words
When she did finally see the disney version (the first four are the only classics) she made me fast forward Tigger, because "He was too rowdy".
Dear sweet days of Pooh.
Now it is more serious stuff like Nancy Drew and her predesessor Trixie Bellden. They have read so many classics that it seems that a lttle pablum is in order. At least there are problem solving skills and great girl heroes involved.> Oh Yes! Eyore! *sigh* for some reason i think of "The Last Unicorn" by Peter S. Beale...
> Reading to each other is SO PRECIOUS KEWL. My SO and i used to read "The Little Prince" by Antoine De Saint-Exupery to each other.I do enjoy The Little Prince immensely, but the end of course seems so sad.
> And sad erotic love poems. Ancient Chinese ones have interesting presence... or check out "This Is My Beloved" by Walter Benton
>
> > In a word, bipolar. Ive been searching for a new pdoc. I "think" I might have finally landed a keeper. Only one visit, but so far so good, he hasnt called me any names yet :)
>
> Called you any names!!!???
> *snicker mischeviously* Like what?Oh well, havent you heard? That last one yelled at me on the phone that I was a "DRUG SEEKER".
> > Ive been very busy complaining about pdocs on the med board and Dr Bob, in a generous mood has not re-directed me.
>
> SH-h-h-h! Now he'll notice!
>
> Personally, i love the Red Queen's solution: "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"
> ;)
That sounds delighful. I had in mind to make them all dog catchters. But the poor doggies...
> >Of course thats what their medicating me for ;)
>
> Don't forget: "Duct tape fixes EVERYTHING"...but i'm still trying to figure out how to apply it... LOL:-0 Help me, Im stuck taped!!!
> Is it snowing there? My SO's grandma is in NorthDakota and says she's sick of winter already! *boggle*
> Here, the leaves are changed to reds and oranges but haven't fallen yet. It's beautiful.We have no snow as yet. We are below the UP so theyll get it before we do. And we are just at the end of our rusts and golds.
> > > And what inspired your name, too?
> > Man is the glory of God, but woman is the glory of man, a scripture verse. The way it speaks to me is, women are the shining crown of creation, the earthreal, the ephmeral part.
> Are you very religious? Christian?
hmmmmm... how does one answer such a question nowdays? My Christian church is on the eastern side of the world, where monk hermits still pray in caves, and incence flows up like prayer, and real oil lamps are tended night and day. I have been fortunate to find only 90 miles from my home such a place where people walk in and hear angels singing. Where golds and reds, candles and incense and largeness of heart ecompasses all who enter. And where the path of the truest diciple decends deeply inward.
I hope that answer your question.
> > We are the prettier sex, but I am prejudice. Truely, women, it seems, are softer, curvier, more colorful, more nurturing and in general more interesting (to everyone) to look at.
> > Seriously, I hope, for myself, to be by my very female nature, a kindness, and in some way a comfort to those who intersect my path. (This is, of course, my aspiration, and for others to judge)
>
> Or not judge at all...
Thank you
> > Im glad it isnt related to dementia the disease, I was hoping you didnt feel so bad about yourself.
>
> No, just a play on words... ;)
> > Do you enjoy physics?
> Immensely! Theory and laws, but not the math. Especially quantum and the newest theories & discoveries. The older classic physics, i always read really fun humour into it from abstract life.
> > Ive really come to appreciate the "hard sciences" after a few semesters studying sociology.
> > My 12 year old daughter loves physics. Im so pleased. It seems quite common now days for girls to feel they are "bad" at science.
> Ever read "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav ??
No, is it interesting?
> >jousting medical industry windmills
>
> I LOVE that analogy! Hi-ho, Quixote!! (May i quote you sometime?)Of course.
> > Are you still struggling with ADD?
> *laugh* Still jousting medical industry windmills...
> Actually i prefer to have both 'treated' and 'non-altered' thought processes --at different times for different reasons. But i can get too overwhelmed by simultaneous experiencing/thinking sometimes... or too 'controlled' by what i laughingly call (my Adderall pills) "Nazi time coagulators".
Do you have a good and cooperative doctor?
I think really in end, we should be allowed to order however we want to feel, since in fact, that seems to be what they are selling.In the pslams David says the hills skipped like unicorns.
I hope we shall see them again someday. Until then I think we'll have to settle for Shadowfax.We just finished watching Crouching Tiger, Hidden Draggon. As you were saying, the oriental stories of love and passion often seem starcrossed in the end.
Amor vincit omnia
Femlite
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2003, at 1:17:04
In reply to DSCH, posted by EscherDementian on November 9, 2003, at 9:46:33
> A favorite author of mine (Do you know his books? If not, a mind like yours might enjoy these~) is Douglas Hofstadter:
> "Godel, Escher, Bach"
> "The Mind's I"
> "Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies" (Computer Models of the Fundamantal Mechanisms of Thought~~ it's another one from the Fluid Analogies Research Group)I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by EscherDementian on November 10, 2003, at 4:49:57
In reply to Re: double double quotes » EscherDementian, posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2003, at 1:17:04
Many times, for about 30minutes, too. Was going to tell you about my experience on PB Admin., but was so tired, i left off, shrugged sheepishly and Moved Away From The Technology. Sorry. please forgive.
Here's what happened: i had 5 books posted in double double quotes. Before confirming my post, i checked the book referrals below, and found that Mind's I and Einststein's Space were incorrectly bulleted and Fluid Concepts was bulleted at 'not found' (or something to that effect). The other two, Godel and Cosmic Serpent were correct. So i clicked on 'show more books' for Mind's I and Einstein's, and left Godel and Cosmic as is.
Then 'submit your post' again.
WHOA, talk about shuffling cards!
It came up now, that Fluid Concepts WAS there, and correctly referred, but Godel was 'not found', and Einstien's never gave me the next page of 'more books', Mind's I was still incorrectly linked on the same page as last time, Cosmic Serpent was now 'not found'....Each time i tried, a different combination of incorrect info was offered to be confirmed. It seemed to rotate randomly, oblivious to my correct bullet clicks. I tried 'submit links', then when that didn't work, 'submit post' again...
The last one that came up, i think, was when each one of the books came up 'no link found' EXCEPT Fluid Concepts - the exact opposite combination of my first attempt. (!) LOL
So i quit trying then.
I'd checked and rechecked the directions and my own correct clicks, experimented with possible alt methods, then shrugged sheepishly and figured it was Bedtime For Bozo.
('Prolly something simple i was missing, OR ~Sometimes the Dragon Wins~).I look forward to enlightenment and your assistance, Dr.Bob~ (yes, i know, redirect to PB Admin. board) ~i'll look for your beacon there.
Escher
Knows that to err is human, but To Really Mix Things Up requires a computer....
Posted by sienna on November 10, 2003, at 9:13:19
In reply to DSCH, posted by EscherDementian on November 9, 2003, at 9:46:33
and if you are interested in linguistics and cognitive science, Steven Pinkers books are nice light reading ha. Well light for linguistics anyway.
""How the Mind Works" or "Words and Rules" or "the Blank Slate" or "The Language Instinct"
Sienna
Posted by EscherDementian on November 10, 2003, at 22:19:12
In reply to Escher » EscherDementian, posted by sienna on November 10, 2003, at 9:13:19
No, haven't read those! Will order & peruse them when i'm next at our library. ->once a week, it seems...
(We have a remarkable library~~ can order ANYTHING and they will borrow it if they don't have it, and buy it (within loose reasonability) for their collection if they can't borrow it. Has a 3rd-hand old books co-op/donation/trade store they maintain, too).
Linguistics can be fun and ver-r-ry interesting sometimes. Are you interested in linquistics? (Doh! obviously)
Meet me over in PB Books, i've one to share with you~
Escher
<<(((*adds more book titles to the already full notebook*))))>>
Posted by sienna on November 10, 2003, at 23:12:32
In reply to Re: sienna » sienna, posted by EscherDementian on November 10, 2003, at 22:19:12
i was very interested in cognitive science and thats where my interest in linguistics came from. I got into Pinkers books and it really turned me on to the whole linguistics thing.
Sienna
Posted by kara lynne on November 10, 2003, at 23:45:49
In reply to Escher » EscherDementian, posted by sienna on November 10, 2003, at 9:13:19
"The Language Instinct"
I loved that book! Wasn't there a sequel?
Posted by sienna on November 10, 2003, at 23:53:26
In reply to sienna, posted by kara lynne on November 10, 2003, at 23:45:49
Have you read "how the mind works"?
Its more cognitive science.
He wrote "Words and Rules" I think that is the one you are thinking of actually.He is so great.
I wanted to go to MIT and meet him but never made it.
Sienna
Posted by kara lynne on November 11, 2003, at 1:39:05
In reply to Re: sienna, posted by sienna on November 10, 2003, at 23:53:26
No, but I will now that you recommended it. And yes, that sounds like the other book I was thinking of.
Maybe we can catch him next time around...
Posted by EscherDementian on November 11, 2003, at 4:21:37
In reply to Re: DSCH » EscherDementian, posted by DSCH on November 9, 2003, at 13:57:13
> Hej? Are you perchance Dutch or German? ;-)Ooops my Freudian slip was showing... *
>>...probably already read this one~ because one of your past posts reminded me of it:
>> "The Cosmic Serpent -DNA and the Origins of Knowledge- "
> Nope. Strangely there aren't all that many books I have read cover to cover. However I grab bits and pieces that are interrelated all over the place (how's that for an ADD trait?).Seems reasonable to ME... ;-)
(i call it spherical thinking as opposed to linear, more dignity in it, no?)
i've always got six books at once going on, at least two open on my lap with the third in my hand. *LOL* -Never knew it wasn't 'normal', until arguing with my diagnosis of ADD last year, i'd said, "But i CAN concentrate! I can begin painting something at sunrise, and not get distracted until after the sun sets because it's too dark to paint! I can concentrate perfectly on three books at once..." and the PMHNP exclaimed, "But that's not NORMAL!" (...Erhm!?)
Anyway, i always do go cover to cover, at least skimming the parts i'm not interested in or seem unrelated, because then i'll inevitably draw from that info at some later time- or it inevitably comes up and clicks into place at some other time, regarding some other abstract. But i know what you mean about 'reading in relativity' :)
Novels and all creative writers i read cover-to-cover linear, because i want to get how the artist intends it.
>I am fairly convinced that philosophical materialism is quite true.Clarify?
>However I am not a die hard genetic determinist as it seems to me the brain has a degree of plasticity. I also believe QM points to there being a fundamental degree of stochasticism/probabilistic function of the universe (probably introduced at the level where spacetime ends up getting quantized itself... a question that only seems to be dodged by string theory, which has been developed classically). I think complete continuity in the physical and mathematic realms is a comforting illusion.
Ah-so. i don't see how continuity could ever NOT be true, however i am comforted more by it's incompleteness, don't you think? Someday i'll fluently understand 'mathematical realms' enough to be comfortable there *sigh*. Unification occurs to me differently from String Theory. But i am comforted and thrilled by quantum's _proofs_ of 'improbable' events and validity of probability theory. Probability has always been another Gravity Well, to my thinking. Kinda like _proving_ the mechanics of reality creation and manifestation. (was wondering when scientific proofs were going to 'catch up' with Eastern religion/philosophy's role of consciousness in the evolutionary patterns of the universe - but that's another Shrodinger's Cat, isn't it?) And our dear PB Barbara Cat already let THAT one out of the bag ;-D (appreciative nod to you, BC)
> Anyway, which posts of mine sparked this connection?i could be mistaken, but i thought at one point you posted something about ayahuasca?
"The Cosmic Serpent" is a study in ethnopharmacology. The author suggests that intelligence and conciousness may have come into man's existence through the DNA of Earth's pre-existing biological life. (plants. plants and spit. spit and dirt. dirt and wind. wind- and eating more plants.) It may be touted as a paradigm shift in our perspective of reality, but IMHO i think it describes in definitive pharmacological/anthropological terms, what religions as older than (and including) scripture have always been describing outright.
Anyway, i forget your exact post, but it occurred to me at the time that you might've read it, it's an exciting exploration.
>> (We're going to get re-directed to PB Books, aren't we? *sigh*)
>>Hej~
See you on PB Books, no? =8-)
>> Good to 'see you',
>> Escher
>
> Likewise :-)
> DSCH
>* :You do occur to me German- is it your composer/moniker? Probably a throwback from conversing with my Swedish friends via text.
Posted by EscherDementian on November 11, 2003, at 8:55:03
In reply to Unicorns Yet » EscherDementian, posted by femlite on November 9, 2003, at 23:49:17
> Oh! Those of course are the best and the humor... my hubby and I would read them to our infant daughter, and roll with laughter at the droll and british sense of wit. She didint get the jokes but she loved the characters all the same. "When We Were Six" Very much taught her to love poetry and feel unbound in her imagiantion for self made words
How perfect! You and your hubby were very instinctive. And a love of poetry...
Ooops, judgement on my part. ;-) Self made words are so creatively evolutionary- and isn't that the spirit in children? What are some of her self made words? i really enjoy smw...
Hey SIENNA do you, too?
The first year i began teaching (Montessori) i started collecting children's SMWs and illustrating them- when i could, with the child's own illustration or description. The first two are:
"Flutterby" (butterfly)
"Pitterpatter" (caterpillar)
~don't they make sense !?
"The gold-and-grey bridge" always made better sense than the Golden Gate Bridge, to me, too!
Nevermind "Git-Downald's"... (McDonald's)
>At least there are problem solving skills and great girl heroes involved.*sigh* there's a blindness of mine: it never occurs to me to differentiate girl/boy or male/female until someone mentions it. Everything is always so individualized in unique context to me...to a fault sometimes. Glad you see things that way for her... Yes, i quite agree, nurtures Intelligence better than Barbie heroism (and even Lisa Simpson's a _cartoon_).
> I do enjoy "The Little Prince" immensely, but the end of course seems so sad.
Oh, no! He becomes a 'pilot'! It's a continuuance to The Pilot himself... look at the last illustration that S-Exupery draws~ the Star! and before that, the Little Prince's heart is the one thing facing that star. ("The child is the seed of the adult". -M.Montessori)
Oh, femlite~ sad? no. nostalgic? heartbreakingly.Ooops again. IMHO, i mean. Please forgive the passion in my interpretation? (...the quantity of passion does not equate to the quality of truth... yes, yes, i know) *bonk*
> Oh well, havent you heard? That last one yelled at me on the phone that I was a "DRUG SEEKER".
My own way around that would be to print out the info that i'm basing my consideration on, and giving it to my pdoc with a "What do you think?" Or "This is something i'd like us to look at". But before that, checking my own integrity in my intention, all the way to overall end-goal for myself.
> I had in mind to make them all dog catchters. But the poor doggies...But didn't you dislike being objectified yourself?
i know you mean that as a joke, but be careful-
My way (as much as i can wrangle) is to notice when i dislike a way i'm treated and exile that from MY world by not doing it. to anyone. for any reason. period. zap. booted from the universe i am creating. Then i try out the treatment i would have preferred, when i come across the person(s)
that i am mistreating in the same way. Sometimes i have to look for it. And usually i have to 'fine-tune' my attempt(s). i know i've been successful when the next time 'it happens to me' i interpret it completely differently, and the original offense just doesn't exist anymore. zap. gone. evolved. Funny, but 'compassionate humour' about our human condition often replaces it.Oh, gads, femlite, i don't mean to be waxing preacher-ish... i don't like being given perscriptions for religion and having my own search for what's right for me be denied, either.
> hmmmmm... how does one answer such a question nowdays? My Christian church is on the eastern side of the world, where monk hermits still pray in caves, and incence flows up like prayer, and real oil lamps are tended night and day. I have been fortunate to find only 90 miles from my home such a place where people walk in and hear angels singing. Where golds and reds, candles and incense and largeness of heart ecompasses all who enter. And where the path of the truest diciple decends deeply inward.
> I hope that answer your question.sounds Russian Orthodox?
> > Ever read "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav ??
> No, is it interesting?
Check it out!
> Do you have a good and cooperative doctor?
> I think really in end, we should be allowed to order however we want to feel, since in fact, that seems to be what they are selling.Hmmm, i see it differently.
> In the pslams David says the hills skipped like unicorns."the hills skipped like unicorns"? Oh, forgive me, femlite, it IS rubber mallet to the forehead time for me, here... the visuals i just imagined! LOL -and also remembering my cousin imitating Julie Andrews (with two oranges stuck down her leotard) singing "My Hills Are Alive~~ With The Sound Of Muuuusic"!! LOL Or maybe it was me, my cousin was imitating... whatever, we were children, and it was SOooo funny!
> I hope we shall see them again someday.
No~ Stop!(oh, not my cousin's oranges, Unicorns, you mean...) They're still here, just in different form.
>Until then I think we'll have to settle for Shadowfax.
i'd settle for Aragorn...
Okay, no, not true. Now i know i'd best leave with the Elves.
> Amor vincit omnia
> Femlite
Nite-Nite,(6:37am here)
Escher
Who wanted to call attention to 'judgement' and now notices all of her own ;)
Posted by femlite on November 11, 2003, at 11:27:07
In reply to Re: Unicorns Yet » femlite, posted by EscherDementian on November 11, 2003, at 8:55:03
Greetings EscherDementia,
I wish we could do this in color as in an email. It makes the diologue much easier to follow.> How perfect! You and your hubby were very instinctive. And a love of poetry...
> Ooops, judgement on my part. ;-)NO NEED TO WORRY
Self made words are so creatively evolutionary- and isn't that the spirit in children? What are some of her self made words? i really enjoy smw...
> Hey SIENNA do you, too?YOU TEACH MONTESSORI? SHE IS ONE OF MY EDUCATIONAL HEROS. THAT IS SO GREAT
WHEN I STUDIED El Ed, I wrote MANY of MY papers ABOUT HER WORK.> The first year i began teaching (Montessori) i started collecting children's SMWs and illustrating them- when i could, with the child's own illustration or description. The first two are:
> "Flutterby" (butterfly) SHE SAID THIS
> "Pitterpatter" (caterpillar)
> ~don't they make sense !?
> "The gold-and-grey bridge" always made better sense than the Golden Gate Bridge, to me, too!
> Nevermind "Git-Downald's"... (McDonald's)
IM GOING TO CAP IT ALL, DONT THINK IM YELLING AT YOU OKAY? ITS JUST EASIER TO FOLLOWI LOVE CHILDRENS WORDS. WE READ "BURT DOW, DEEP WATER MAN" TO HER A MILLION TIMES (IT SEEMED). WONDERFUL CHILDREN'S AUTHOR, ROBERT McCLOUSKEY. SUCH FUN WORDS. SLISH-KA-SLOSH, MAKE-AND-BREAK ENGINE....
ONE OF THE SMW I LOVED WAS "ELEEPHANTE" FOR ELEPHANT. IT SEEMED A LOGICAL PHONETIC EXPRESSION TO ME.
WHEN SHE WOULD SEE A TRACTOR IN THE FIELD SHE CALLED THEM "SEAT TILLERS"
AND I COULD NEVER GET HER TO CALL HER PIGGY BANK AS SUCH, SHE MORE LOGICALLY CALLED IT HER PENNY BEAR, FOR THAT'S WHAT IT WAS, A BEAR.I MISS THOSE DAYS. BUT SINCE WE'VE KEPT HER HOME ALL THESE YEARS, SHE SEEMS TO HAVE RETAINED THAT LITTLE SPARK OF SEEING THE WORLD THROUGH A CHILDS EYES. SHE WANTS TO BE A WRITER IN FACT!
>
>
> >At least there are problem solving skills and great girl heroes involved.
>
> *sigh* there's a blindness of mine: it never occurs to me to differentiate girl/boy or male/female until someone mentions it. Everything is always so individualized in unique context to me...to a fault sometimes. Glad you see things that way for her... Yes, i quite agree, nurtures Intelligence better than Barbie heroism (and even Lisa Simpson's a _cartoon_).BARBIES ARE BANNED FROM THIS HOUSE :-0
(THE GRANDMAS WERE SCANDALIZED!)
>
> > I do enjoy "The Little Prince" immensely, but the end of course seems so sad.
>
> Oh, no! He becomes a 'pilot'! It's a continuuance to The Pilot himself... look at the last illustration that S-Exupery draws~ the Star! and before that, the Little Prince's heart is the one thing facing that star. ("The child is the seed of the adult". -M.Montessori)
> Oh, femlite~ sad? no. nostalgic? heartbreakingly.I PROMISE TO GO BACK AND READ THAT ENDING AND IF IT IS AS YOU SAY (AND IM SURE IT IS) THAT IS A LOVELY IMAGE TO END WITH. OF COURSE ITS HIS CHILDS EYE VIEW OF THE WORLD THAT MAKES THE BOOK SO SPECIAL, ISNT IT?
>
> > Oh well, havent you heard? That last one yelled at me on the phone that I was a "DRUG SEEKER".
>
> My own way around that would be to print out the info that i'm basing my consideration on, and giving it to my pdoc with a "What do you think?" Or "This is something i'd like us to look at". But before that, checking my own integrity in my intention, all the way to overall end-goal for myself.YOUR ADVICE IS SOUND AN APPRECIATED. IT IS ALWAYS GOOD TO EXAMINE ONES TRUE FEELINGS (A LIFE UNEXAMINED...)
AND THERE IS NO DOUBT A GREAT DEAL OF CYNICISM IN MY VIEW AND PERHAPS MY BEARING. BUT (YOU KNEW THAT WAS COMING ;-) SO FAR IT HAS BEEN RELATIVELY JUSTAFIABLE. I LOVE THE EAST AND INDIANS PER SE, BUT IM NOT SURE THEY UNDERSTAND AMERICANS. (FORGIVE ME ALL YOU WHO ARE EAST INDIAN)
THIS TIME I DID IT MY WAY (OR VERY MUCH TRIED)
AT MY FIRST VISIT I TOLD HIM I WAS, AT THAT TIME, UNINTERESTED IN HIS DX. THAT THE PURPOSE OF MY VISIT WAS TO ASSESS IF WE COULD WORK TOGEATHER. HE TOOK IT IN VERY GOOD HUMOR (A SENSE OF HUMOR IS ALWAYS A GOOD SIGN, DONT YOU THINK?)I HAVE BEEN PLEADING MY CASE ON THE MED BOARD DURING YOUR ABSENCE. PB HAS MADE AN EDUCATED MENTAL HEALTH CONSUMER OF ME AND OF US ALL. ALL OF THE PDOCS IVE BEEN TO IN THE RECENT PAST HAVE SEEMED THREATENED BY WORKING WITH A PATIENT WHO KNOWS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DOPAMINE AND NOREPINEPHRINE...) AH WELL..
HOPEFULLY THAT IS IN THE PAST. AND AS YOU SAY, A RESPECTFUL AND OPTIMISTIC APPROACH WILL TAKE ONE MUCH FURTHER.
MY GP LAUGHED WHEN I TOLD HIM OF THE ACCUSATION I RECIEVED OF SEEKING DRUGS. HE KNOWS ME PRETTY WELL AND HIS CONFIDENCE WAS REASURING.
ENOUGH OF MY WOEFULL TALE.
>
> > I had in mind to make them all dog catchters. But the poor doggies...
>
> But didn't you dislike being objectified yourself?WELL SAID! MY OBJECTIFICATION IS OF COURSE THE REASON I SEEK TREATMENT. HOPEFULLY THE DOCTOR WILL GRANT ME MY PSYCHOTIC DUE, SINCE THAT IS WHY IM THERE. BUT OF COURSE THEY ARE HUMAN.
HAVING BEEN CURSED WITH BAD DOCTOR KARMA (I JEST, BUT ONLY SLIGHTLY) I REALLY DO FEEL THAT GOING THROUGH THIS PROCESS (SEARCHING, AND FAILING, GETTING UP AND SEARCHING AND FAILING, AND GETTING UP AGAIN..) IS SOMEHOW PART OF THE HEALING PROCESS FOR ME. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
> i know you mean that as a joke, but be careful-
> My way (as much as i can wrangle) is to notice when i dislike a way i'm treated and exile that from MY world by not doing it. to anyone. for any reason. period. zap. booted from the universe i am creating. Then i try out the treatment i would have preferred, when i come across the person(s)
> that i am mistreating in the same way. Sometimes i have to look for it. And usually i have to 'fine-tune' my attempt(s). i know i've been successful when the next time 'it happens to me' i interpret it completely differently, and the original offense just doesn't exist anymore. zap. gone. evolved. Funny, but 'compassionate humour' about our human condition often replaces it.
WHEN IT COMES TO DOCTORS, THIS IS STILL QUITE A WRANGLE FOR ME. AND I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU IRRESPECTIVE OF THAT ONE SMALL PART OF MY PSYCHE :)
>
> Oh, gads, femlite, i don't mean to be waxing preacher-ish... i don't like being given perscriptions for religion and having my own search for what's right for me be denied, either.
NO OFFENCE TAKEN. I ONLY WISH TO BE CONSIDERED AS A WHOLE, LIKE US ALL. AND NOT PUT IN SOME MEDIA MADE BOX/STIGMA
>
> sounds Russian Orthodox?
IM IMPRESSED. NOT MANY AMERICANS ARE AWARE OF THE EASTERN CHURCH.
>
> > > Ever read "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav ??
> No, is it interesting?
>
> Check it out!
>
>
> > Do you have a good and cooperative doctor?
> > I think really in end, we should be allowed to order however we want to feel, since in fact, that seems to be what they are selling.
>
> Hmmm, i see it differently.FORGIVE ME, MY CYNICISM IS SHOWING
>
>
> > In the pslams David says the hills skipped like unicorns.
>
> "the hills skipped like unicorns"? Oh, forgive me, femlite, it IS rubber mallet to the forehead time for me, here... the visuals i just imagined! LOL -and also remembering my cousin imitating Julie Andrews (with two oranges stuck down her leotard) singing "My Hills Are Alive~~ With The Sound Of Muuuusic"!! LOL Or maybe it was me, my cousin was imitating... whatever, we were children, and it was SOooo funny!
>
> > I hope we shall see them again someday.
>
>
> (oh, not my cousin's oranges, Unicorns, you mean...) They're still here, just in different form.
YES SILLY, :) THE UNICORNSLOL. DID YOU REALLY ACT SMALL PLAYS. I LOVE THOSE PARTS OF "LITTLE WOMEN" WHEN THE SISTERS ACTED OUT JOES' PLAYS. MY DAUGHTERS ALWAYS SEEM TO BE COOKING UP ONE SKIT OR ANOTHER.
>
> >Until then I think we'll have to settle for Shadowfax.
>
> i'd settle for Aragorn...
> Okay, no, not true. Now i know i'd best leave with the Elves.IN THIS HOUSE, HORSES REIGN SUPREME, HORNS OR NOT.
THE BUDDING AUTHOR IS ALSO A HORSEY GIRL. I REALLY ENJOY WATCHING HER RIDE. SHE SITS A HORSE SO BEAUTIFULLY. OURS AND HER NEXT FAVORITE CREATURES, ARE THOSE BEAUTIFUL ELVES.
YOU ARE SUCH A POET, ESCHER. DO YOU WRITE? PRIVATELY OR PROFESSIONALY?MY, HOW MUCH WE HAVE LEARNED ABOUT EACH OTHER IN JUST THREE LETTERS. YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT IS AROUND THE NEXT CORNER.
>
> > Amor vincit omnia
> > Femlite
>
> Nite-Nite,(6:37am here)
> Escher
> Who wanted to call attention to 'judgement' and now notices all of her own ;)FORGIVE THE CLICHE, BUT SUCH AN ERRROR WE SHARE..
OFTEN FAILING BUT SINCERELY STRIVING TO BE, "SUAVITER IN MODO FORTTITER IN RE` " GENTLE IN MANNER, BUT STRONG IN DEED
femlite
Posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 12:20:05
In reply to Re: DSCH » DSCH, posted by EscherDementian on November 11, 2003, at 4:21:37
> >I am fairly convinced that philosophical materialism is quite true.
>
> Clarify?Human beings and all life for that matter are indeed matter. Physical systems. Ensambles of organic molecules. However, they have the odd abilities of self-replication and performing thermodynamic work cycles. Odder still is the ability to act on one's own behalf. But I am convinced that the supernatural and the mystical do not enter into this. I believe "God" and "soul", like spatial, temporal, material continuity, are comforting illusions that result from our lack of sense impressions and objective understanding of fine enough scales.
> >However I am not a die hard genetic determinist as it seems to me the brain has a degree of plasticity. I also believe QM points to there being a fundamental degree of stochasticism/probabilistic function of the universe (probably introduced at the level where spacetime ends up getting quantized itself... a question that only seems to be dodged by string theory, which has been developed classically). I think complete continuity in the physical and mathematic realms is a comforting illusion.
>
> Ah-so. i don't see how continuity could ever NOT be true, however i am comforted more by it's incompleteness, don't you think? Someday i'll fluently understand 'mathematical realms' enough to be comfortable there *sigh*. Unification occurs to me differently from String Theory.Umm, how does it "occur" for people differntly? The theory, hopefully, is either right or wrong (and if wrong, hopefully fruitful in other senses) for the universe (or multiverse(s)) as a whole. Indeed the biggest problem for the theory at present is that there is no experiment known yet that can DISPROVE it. This is called (thanks to the ascerbic Wolfgang Pauli) being "so awful that it isn't even wrong"!
>But i am comforted and thrilled by quantum's _proofs_ of 'improbable' events and validity of probability theory. Probability has always been another Gravity Well, to my thinking. Kinda like _proving_ the mechanics of reality creation and manifestation. (was wondering when scientific proofs were going to 'catch up' with Eastern religion/philosophy's role of consciousness in the evolutionary patterns of the universe - but that's another Shrodinger's Cat, isn't it?) And our dear PB Barbara Cat already let THAT one out of the bag ;-D (appreciative nod to you, BC)
Errr. That's why I felt compelled to bring up Pagels. Many people try to piggy-back Eastern mysticism on the back of QM and Pagels was one of the few members of the legitimate working community to take the time to call them to task for it.
My favorite resolution to the Schroedinger's Cat problem was the one succinctly stated by Bohr himself but which most people do not find enough metaphysical comfort from (and Bohr's message to that basically is: "tough cookies!").
The "half-dead/half-alive" state collapses to one or the other whenever the box is opened to make the observation. Hence, the mixed state cannot be observed, and because of this it is pointless to bellyache over it. Science is made distinct from philosophy by being concerned only with the fit of theory to observations rather than the fit of theory to our preconceptions of how the universe works.
> > Anyway, which posts of mine sparked this connection?
>
> i could be mistaken, but i thought at one point you posted something about ayahuasca?Nope, not me. :-)
> "The Cosmic Serpent" is a study in ethnopharmacology. The author suggests that intelligence and conciousness may have come into man's existence through the DNA of Earth's pre-existing biological life. (plants. plants and spit. spit and dirt. dirt and wind. wind- and eating more plants.) It may be touted as a paradigm shift in our perspective of reality, but IMHO i think it describes in definitive pharmacological/anthropological terms, what religions as older than (and including) scripture have always been describing outright.
Then again, it could just be another set of notions knocked loose by the use of psychotropics. They take on an air of reality (or even "ueber-reality" to make a gross cross-linguistic construct) to the user, but do any of them necessarily conform to objective reality? Is it even testable? However, they are indeed interesting for revealing what is latent inside of our own "mental territory".
> * :You do occur to me German- is it your composer/moniker? Probably a throwback from conversing with my Swedish friends via text.
DSCH is the Germanization of his initals that corresponds to a four note figure he used as a musical signature. He himself was most definately Russian (St. Petersburger to be precise). As for me I am of Norwegian-German(Holsteiner)-English heritage. :-)
Posted by femlite on November 11, 2003, at 22:45:15
In reply to Re: DSCH » EscherDementian, posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 12:20:05
Odder still is the ability to act on one's own behalf.
***Forgive me for jumping into waters Im quite sure my head is not suffiecintly above, but just for fun, what is odd exactly about acting on belief?
.. concerned only with the fit of theory to observations rather than the fit of theory to our preconceptions of how the universe works.***there is no such thing as true objectivety, scientist often start with presupositions, ie..the metaphysical relm does not exist... and work from their presupositons. Pasteur and a great many scientist were laughed out of the profession, for just such myopic hard headedness, no?
They take on an air of reality (or even "ueber-reality" to make a gross cross-linguistic construct) to the user, but do any of them necessarily conform to objective reality? Is it even testable? However, they are indeed interesting for revealing what is latent inside of our own "mental territory".***As science is continually evolving, how can any scientist worth his salt claim that it is possible to possess "objective" realism? To rule out what we have not yet proven or disproven seems a lack of true scientific spirit.
> >You do occur to me German- is it your composer/moniker? Probably a throwback from conversing with my Swedish friends via text.
>
> DSCH is the Germanization of his initals that corresponds to a four note figure he used as a musical signature. He himself was most definately Russian (St. Petersburger to be precise). As for me I am of Norwegian-German(Holsteiner)-English heritage. :-)***I have great respect for your opinions on MOST occassions DSCH, (and shall continue to have). And not ALL Germans are so materialistic. ;-)
Posted by DSCH on November 12, 2003, at 1:31:36
In reply to Re: DSCH » DSCH, posted by femlite on November 11, 2003, at 22:45:15
> Odder still is the ability to act on one's own behalf.
>
> ***Forgive me for jumping into waters Im quite sure my head is not suffiecintly above, but just for fun, what is odd exactly about acting on belief?Notice I said "on one's on behalf", not belief. Can a bacterium be said to have belief? However, it goes about and finds food and trades information with other bacteria and reproduces. As such it performs infintely better than any automata that we have yet produced, and in a microscopic package to boot.
> .. concerned only with the fit of theory to observations rather than the fit of theory to our preconceptions of how the universe works.
>
> ***there is no such thing as true objectivety, scientist often start with presupositions, ie..the metaphysical relm does not exist... and work from their presupositons.That is why the final appeal is to experiment. And the presuppositions are discarded along with the used paper coffee cups if they do not work. ;-)
>Pasteur and a great many scientist were laughed out of the profession, for just such myopic hard headedness, no?
Not Pasteur. He was a vitalist anyway. As most continential biologists were at the turn of the century.
> They take on an air of reality (or even "ueber-reality" to make a gross cross-linguistic construct) to the user, but do any of them necessarily conform to objective reality? Is it even testable? However, they are indeed interesting for revealing what is latent inside of our own "mental territory".
>
> ***As science is continually evolving, how can any scientist worth his salt claim that it is possible to possess "objective" realism? To rule out what we have not yet proven or disproven seems a lack of true scientific spirit.See above. Frankly I have read so many different "great revelations" people have had on acid or mushrooms that they certainly can't all be true reports on the nature of reality.
> > >You do occur to me German- is it your composer/moniker? Probably a throwback from conversing with my Swedish friends via text.
> >
> > DSCH is the Germanization of his initals that corresponds to a four note figure he used as a musical signature. He himself was most definately Russian (St. Petersburger to be precise). As for me I am of Norwegian-German(Holsteiner)-English heritage. :-)
>
> ***I have great respect for your opinions on MOST occassions DSCH, (and shall continue to have). And not ALL Germans are so materialistic. ;-)Yes, Hitler for one was quite the romantic, nes pas? ;-) Artist as leader, vessel for his peoples' remdemption and vengance, and history-changing figure. Reality bent to the Will (that is until the rest of world came knocking on his doorstep). All vicious nonsense.
On the other hand Niels Bohr, for having such an uncompromising view of science and the philosophy of science, was a family man, father-figure to a community of scientists, political conscience of the nuclear age, and Danish cultural figure.
Posted by femlite on November 12, 2003, at 6:38:07
In reply to In defense of objectivity » femlite, posted by DSCH on November 12, 2003, at 1:31:36
> > Odder still is the ability to act on one's own behalf.
Let me try again. When acting on ones belief do you find unusual the acting or the beleif?
> Notice I said "on one's on behalf", not belief. Can a bacterium be said to have belief? However, it goes about and finds food and trades information with other bacteria and reproduces. As such it performs infintely better than any automata that we have yet produced, and in a microscopic package to boot.
>
> > .. concerned only with the fit of theory to observations rather than the fit of theory to our preconceptions of how the universe works.>
> That is why the final appeal is to experiment. And the presuppositions are discarded along with the used paper coffee cups if they do not work.
;-)
I wish I had such great faith in true human objectivity
> Not Pasteur. He was a vitalist anyway. As most continential biologists were at the turn of the century.
You have me. What is vitalist, and what does that have to do with the persistence of discovery in a concept or thereory that is currently unbelieved?> > They take on an air of reality (or even "ueber-reality" to make a gross cross-linguistic construct) to the user, but do any of them necessarily conform to objective reality? Is it even testable? However, they are indeed interesting for revealing what is latent inside of our own "mental territory".
> >
> > ***As science is continually evolving, how can any scientist worth his salt claim that it is possible to possess "objective" realism? To rule out what we have not yet proven or disproven seems a lack of true scientific spirit.
>
> See above. Frankly I have read so many different "great revelations" people have had on acid or mushrooms that they certainly can't all be true reports on the nature of reality.
This conversation may have started on this premise, but their are a GREAT many revelations unrelated to such "medicinal" inducement. As a scientist it is good to examine all possiblities, no? But an honest one must admit that true objectivety can only belong to one who knows all.
> > ***I have great respect for your opinions on MOST occassions DSCH, (and shall continue to have). And not ALL Germans are so materialistic. ;-)
>
> Yes, Hitler for one was quite the romantic, nes pas? ;-) Artist as leader, vessel for his peoples' remdemption and vengance, and history-changing figure. Reality bent to the Will (that is until the rest of world came knocking on his doorstep). All vicious nonsense.
The Romantic period was not noted for enlightend thinking, well unless you were a true cynic.
> On the other hand Niels Bohr, for having such an uncompromising view of science and the philosophy of science, was a family man, father-figure to a community of scientists, political conscience of the nuclear age, and Danish cultural figure.
Im sure I dont compare as a philospher or scientist but
I was speaking of moi, silly :-) and I am NOT a materialist. (as if you couldnt tell) ;-)
What science are you studying?
Posted by DSCH on November 12, 2003, at 17:21:23
In reply to Re: In defense of objectivity » DSCH, posted by femlite on November 12, 2003, at 6:38:07
> > > Odder still is the ability to act on one's own behalf.
>
> Let me try again. When acting on ones belief do you find unusual the acting or the beleif?I don't know. I was making reference to microorganisms there. Once you recognize and ponder the fact that a bacterium can do these amazing things, whatever we as a species bring to the table doesn't seem quite so singular anymore (i.e. a barrier was broken or a gigantic leap made in the ability to 'propogate organization' in the evolution of single cells... everything else has been incremental elaborations from there); and then you can see what our fellow mammals are capable of too. But then I guess I am not answering your question because I do not understand how it follows from what I said before (some misunderstanding over 'belief' vs. 'behalf'?).
> > That is why the final appeal is to experiment. And the presuppositions are discarded along with the used paper coffee cups if they do not work.
> I wish I had such great faith in true human objectivityA dissapointingly small fraction of people in technical fields can think this way, indeed. But then they are generally not the ones making breakthroughs. Some wag once said that science advances one tombstone at a time, and that is partly true.
> You have me. What is vitalist, and what does that have to do with the persistence of discovery in a concept or thereory that is currently unbelieved?
Vitalists believe that the distinction between life and non-life requires there to be supernatural forces at work. Be it "God" or an "elan vital".
A good example of a theory that was laughed at but gained acceptance over decades as observations built up in favor of it is continential drift. Darwin's theory of natural selection certainly many detractors at first but they have gradually been pushed further away from the mainstream.
In 1900, many physicists thought the task of physics was basically complete and all that was left to so was keep refining the values to physical constants by doing more elaborate experiments to measure them more precisely. But then in a matter of years, radioactivity, X-rays, the inability to detect the Eart's motion relative to the aether, the "ultraviolet catastrophe", and the photoelectric effect were discovered.
Physics today is in a similar bind as our ability to probe higher energies is starting to require accelerators that even the public of the United States will balk at funding. I wonder wether the upgrade at CERN represents the swan song of this branch of experimental physics.
> ***As science is continually evolving, how can any scientist worth his salt claim that it is possible to possess "objective" realism? To rule out what we have not yet proven or disproven seems a lack of true scientific spirit.
> This conversation may have started on this premise, but their are a GREAT many revelations unrelated to such "medicinal" inducement. As a scientist it is good to examine all possiblities, no? But an honest one must admit that true objectivety can only belong to one who knows all.How do you test this stuff outside of just giving people acid and getting trip reports from them? It's the responsibility of the person wanting to persue this line of inquiry to its depths to come up with testable hypotheses to present to the community at large. THEY must present something testable so as to overcome skepticism and those "preconviced" notions.
Frankly, they are so many questions one is forced to persue relatively few in the course of a career and rely on the mainstream ideas to provide a weltanschaung elsewhere.
I do not hear respected physicists saying they have advanced string theory by dropping acid. ;-) Some may, but they certainly don't state that acid revelations are a way to bypass experiments. ;-)
Yes, I know Kary Mullins does LSD. ;-)
> What science are you studying?
Well it was materials before, but the employment opportunities are currently dismal and plus it's all "dead matter" and less interesting to me these days. I am reading more and more on computers and biology and may go back to school soon.
This is the end of the thread.
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