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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by madwand on October 17, 2003, at 10:16:50
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
Dinah,
For me, the answer is different at different times. When I am in a good space the question doesn't even really come up -- why do I need a "reason" to live when I am enjoying it.
When I am in a bad space I have a number of "tricks" (i.e. these do not represent actual philosophical beliefs, but I can pretend to believe them for short periods of time). One is that the universe "doesn't care" and that therefore I am going to live as a kind of "f*** you". Sort of an existential hero carving meaning out of a meaningless world through his action and his will. Or perhaps what Castenada referred to as "controlled folly".
As perhaps a more-cheery variant on the above, I remember that, as a child of the Supreme Being,
I have a form of that Being's creative power and that I can *create* meaning by choosing it and affirming it (rather than trying to "find" it).Michael
Posted by Susan J on October 17, 2003, at 13:27:03
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 10:13:45
> I'm not thinking of killing myself, although if it was possible to will yourself to die I would. Can't be done though. Tried for over a year twice.
<<Been there. Done that. I'm so sorry you feel so badly right now. :-(
> But there is a gaping hole inside, that my little dog so long ago could fill, and Harry fills a lot. And who'll fill it now? I feel empty already.
<<Cliche I know, but forcing myself to love *me* was the only thing that actually kept that hole from getting too big. It's the hardest thing I've ever done, and I haven't done it perfectly.
But loving others, including pets, always helps. It's just if we love others so much and not ourselves, and the others leave us or let us down, we have nothing left to lean on.> And Harry is doing ok.
<<Way to go, Harry!Hang in there, Dinah. You're in my thoughts.
Susan
Posted by Tabitha on October 17, 2003, at 17:36:10
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
the only time life makes sense to me is when there's some pleasure in it. Then it's self-sustaining. When pleasure goes-- it's just so hard to find some intellectual meaning, so I don't try-- I wait for improvement, or crank up the meds. Is there anything little Dinah would enjoy right now?
Posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 17:53:47
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Tabitha on October 17, 2003, at 17:36:10
I can't think of a darn thing. Even my sex drive is kaput. :( My major mood indicator. (More than you wanted to know, eh?)
Might be time to crank up the meds, but I have to wait a while yet. My moods usually swing so quickly that by the times the meds get a chance to work, the mood is past anyway. Besides, I *hate* antidepressants with a passion. :(
Posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 17:58:28
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live? » Dinah, posted by Susan J on October 17, 2003, at 13:27:03
Funny you should say that Susan. That's my therapist's guess on what fills the hole. The obvious answer would be being loved, but he thinks it's more loving than being loved.
I've never thought I had any particular problem in loving myself. In fact those close to me might say I have a real talent for self esteem. :P But I don't know. Maybe there is a difference.
My therapist kept trying to tell me today that my dogs didn't have the power to fill that hole. That it was me doing it, perhaps in interaction with them. I, of course, think he's completely wrong. I'm going to bring a video next time so that he can see the truth.
Posted by Ilene on October 17, 2003, at 18:55:58
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
I don't know. I have been in physical, mental, and psychic pain for about a week. It's gotten only marginally better. I've been able to do only the barest minimum, and I have two kids. Everything hurts, I don't want to move, I'm exhausted, I haven't been eating, I can't concentrate, I am depressed, anxious, and guilty. I don't enjoy anything. I have no reason to think things will get better--they've been getting worse for some time.
Ilene
Yes, I saw my doctor and my pdoc.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on October 17, 2003, at 21:50:47
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Ilene on October 17, 2003, at 18:55:58
It's quite likely that we are supposed to live because Mr. Darwin tells us that the world will go nowhere if we don't. Maybe that's why I want to live for my kids. It's certainly not because I have any desire to continue my life for myself.
On my own, if there were no-one else around, I can without reservation say that I would be history. My kids are most important. My one good friend is terribly important. My cat is important. Most everyone around me is important. At one time, my marriage was important, but that no longer exists.
Maybe we're supposed to want to live because all of those things make us feel good, because they're important, and we have the potential to become healthy and to honestly feel all of it. Somehow, Genesis, and God's "And behold it was good" has never really done it for me. I'm hoping too that it might someday.
Maybe what we're really here for is Babble. Perhaps Babble is the reason we're supposed to want to live.
Dee. :-)
Posted by Ilene on October 17, 2003, at 22:40:43
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by deirdrehbrt on October 17, 2003, at 21:50:47
> It's quite likely that we are supposed to live because Mr. Darwin tells us that the world will go nowhere if we don't. Maybe that's why I want to live for my kids. It's certainly not because I have any desire to continue my life for myself.
DNA's the general reason. Yes, I will be more successful if I pass on my genes.
On personal level, I feel that life has become a contest of endurance.
Ilene
Posted by Liligoth on October 18, 2003, at 6:38:20
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Ilene on October 17, 2003, at 18:55:58
Dinah Im so sorry you are feeling bad now. I have no words of wisdom for you. Maybe knowing that it's because you do make a difference
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 9:13:07
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by deirdrehbrt on October 17, 2003, at 21:50:47
My kid. That's the main reason it would matter if I killed myself. Yet sometimes I wonder if I'm really doing him a favor, if he might not be better off without me.
I have a few worst case scenarios in my mind, where all the shoulds won't outweigh the fear. My husband, admittedly unwittingly, threatened me with one of them last night. He talked about how we might have to leave the city and my family and more importantly his family and my therapist, in order for him to get a decent job. This was based on nothing, as far as I can tell. His job isn't in any danger, not even by rumor, and I can't help thinking that it had something to do with the fact that he was unhappy with something I did (which he was) and wanted to scare me. I didn't, of course, tell him what my response to that would be. I'd not do that. But needless to say, I feel farther in the hole today and slipping rapidly.
Posted by madwand on October 18, 2003, at 9:27:36
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 9:13:07
Dinah,
My apologies if my earlier post did not acknowledge your pain -- I really didn't realize what kind of space you are in (but I do stand by the part about the Supreme Being, which contrary to the phrasing of my note *is* part of what I believe).
The only thing I can add at this point is about what you said about the thoughts that your kid "would be better off". While I have never felt suicidal per se (not quite sure why that is), I am familiar with that space of "the people in my life would be better off if I weren't there".
That is a hard one to beat -- I still struggle with it. The thing to remember is that, like alcoholism, depression is a disease that lies to us. A thought. When you are in that state -- try "personifying" your depression and talking to it. Tell it you know it is lying, and perhaps even say that if it will tell you the *truth* you would be willing to listen.
Hang in there -- a lot of people are behind you!Michael
Posted by Emme on October 18, 2003, at 9:29:42
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 9:13:07
Oh Dinah,
I'm so sorry you are sliding down into the abyss. It feels so isolating. You wouldn't be alone down there. I hope we can all pull each other out. Why do you sometimes think your son would be better off without you? With such a smart, kind mother, he'd surely be worse off.
I hope your husband comes to understand that what he did was not kind and didn't help your situation. Are you able to at least let him know that what he said was upsetting to you?
I hope you have a better day.
(((Dinah)))
Emme
> My kid. That's the main reason it would matter if I killed myself. Yet sometimes I wonder if I'm really doing him a favor, if he might not be better off without me.
>
> I have a few worst case scenarios in my mind, where all the shoulds won't outweigh the fear. My husband, admittedly unwittingly, threatened me with one of them last night. He talked about how we might have to leave the city and my family and more importantly his family and my therapist, in order for him to get a decent job. This was based on nothing, as far as I can tell. His job isn't in any danger, not even by rumor, and I can't help thinking that it had something to do with the fact that he was unhappy with something I did (which he was) and wanted to scare me. I didn't, of course, tell him what my response to that would be. I'd not do that. But needless to say, I feel farther in the hole today and slipping rapidly.
Posted by Susan J on October 18, 2003, at 10:01:20
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live? » Susan J, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 17:58:28
Dinah,
>>I've never thought I had any particular problem in loving myself. In fact those close to me might say I have a real talent for self esteem. :P
<<Hey, can you teach me some of that?? :-)>>My therapist kept trying to tell me today that my dogs didn't have the power to fill that hole. That it was me doing it, perhaps in interaction with them. I, of course, think he's completely wrong. I'm going to bring a video next time so that he can see the truth.
<<Ya know, I can think of a lot worse types of coping mechanisms than spreading love to puppies....they need it, it's good for you. All sounds good to me. :-)
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 11:43:15
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live? » Dinah, posted by madwand on October 18, 2003, at 9:27:36
Ach, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. He knew that the things that he were saying were upsetting to me, but he didn't know (and won't know) that I don't think I could live with those changes. But it's just talk, and part of why I was angry is that it's not likely to come about so I feel like he's just trying to punish me. But that's what my dad did all the time, so maybe I'm blaming my husband for something he didn't mean to do.
And yes, I suppose I know my son wouldn't be better off if I killed myself. I don't suppose any child would be, no matter what kind of parent. And he does love me and seems to like me fine as a mom. I guess it's just the negative stuff that comes with the down phases.
It'll pass. It always does.
Again, sorry for making it sound so morbid. :(
Posted by fallsfall on October 18, 2003, at 14:58:49
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 11:43:15
If you can't be morbid here, where can you be morbid?
I know how empty you can feel. For me, it is agony. Trying to find something to fill the space. But you HAVE found things that do fill the space, and you will again in the future. Just hold on, and keep reaching out.
Posted by kara lynne on October 18, 2003, at 15:00:50
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 11:43:15
For the child I don't have
For the coffee I can't drink
For the faith I can't find
To sleep too much
To laugh too little
To cry all night
To be
Orto be eeyore.
Didn't he have a good reason?
Posted by deirdrehbrt on October 18, 2003, at 16:33:55
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 11:43:15
Dinah,
Please let your husband know that you couldn't stand a move right now. Letting him make a decision that would destroy you, just because you don't want to hurt him, isn't fair to either of you. If he were to do such a thing, and then have you be miserable would fill him with regret.
You are such a wonderfull, kind, intelligent and caring woman. Your Son knows this without question; I believe your husband does too.
Please communicate your worries and pain. That's the easiest way to get rid of them.
Please take care.
Dee.
Posted by shar on October 19, 2003, at 0:32:11
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
Dinah,
This may not answer your question, but I can sure relate to the feeling distant part. This first quote always brings a smile to my face:You fall out of your mother's womb, you crawl across open country under fire, and drop into your grave. - Quentin Crisp
The average man does not know what to do with his life, yet wants another one which will last forever. - Anatole Francexoxo
Shar
Posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 8:50:37
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live? » Dinah, posted by shar on October 19, 2003, at 0:32:11
They both made me smile, Shar. Both seem so absolutely true right now. Thanks. :)
Posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:18:34
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live? » Dinah, posted by deirdrehbrt on October 18, 2003, at 16:33:55
I've told my husband I don't like the idea, and I'll probably tell my therapist too. But I doubt I'll mention suicide.
I may be able to say online that there are certain things that would be more than I can bear, but I don't even think online I could say that if one of them had happened.
And in person I don't even think I could say it in a vague future context. Not with my therapist even, and certainly not with my husband.
Bad memories, I guess, of threatening suicide as a preteen and the reactions I got. I vowed never to threaten again.
The closest I can come in real life is to talk about it in some odd third person way. "I keep getting these urges to kill myself and they are disturbing to me. Oh no. I have no intention of acting on them, but they are still frightening to me, because I'm afraid my resolve will slip for a moment." That sort of thing.
Posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:21:34
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live? » deirdrehbrt, posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:18:34
It's unlikely that we'll have to move, and if we do, I'll just refuse.
Posted by fallsfall on October 19, 2003, at 9:40:04
In reply to Re: That was just hypothetical, of course., posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:21:34
Posted by deirdrehbrt on October 19, 2003, at 12:39:03
In reply to Re: That was just hypothetical, of course., posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 9:21:34
No message
Posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 22:18:18
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
My last similar post was early August. Well within my eight to ten week normal cycle. Astonishing to look back through the Babble archives.....
Maybe I can hope for a nice hypomanic surge soon. I was kind of afraid this was the beginning of my fourth major depression, and I'm very reassured to know that I'm still in my normal time frame.
Sigh. Ain't cyclothymia grand?
Posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 22:20:54
In reply to Re: Wow, looked it up., posted by Dinah on October 19, 2003, at 22:18:18
This is the end of the thread.
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