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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 34 to 58 of 58. Go back in thread:
Posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 18:58:49
In reply to Re: I always knew I wasn't a woman., posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 18:35:53
"I pursued my husband like a hungry cheetah after a gazelle. "
I think it's cool that you did that, Dinah. See, I wish I had the confidence to. So maybe I'm asking the guy for something I'm lacking in-- could be part of it, as well as upbringing, cultural conditioning, yadda yadda yadda. But look at you--you got your gazelle (oh, I do hate that image though!).
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 19:09:27
In reply to Re: I always knew I wasn't a woman., posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 18:58:49
I'm not sure I would have had the nerve to do it with someone I didn't know. We were friendly rivals before I decided he was just about everything I wanted in a guy.
Of course, I don't know. I was a completely different person in tenth and twelth grades (and part of my freshman year of college). Flirtatious and somewhat outgoing. Giddy happy. Filled with the fresh confidence of burgeoning womanhood (and with brand new breasts). All my dates and date offers (except my husband's continuing dates of course) came from that period. There must be something attractive about confidence and happiness. Then I turned back into a pumpkin, but my husband still loved me anyway. I think he hasn't totally forgotten that happy flirtatious girl.
Posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 19:16:42
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » kara lynne, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 19:09:27
Dinah,
I think it's that memory of who I was when he first knew me that keeps my husband committed to me.
That song "Unwell" rings true for me a bit.
Posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:46:08
In reply to Why should the man pay?, posted by gabbix2 on April 2, 2003, at 16:30:58
I agree, but then I'm an old feminist. I always ask (most agreeably) if I can contribute. Then it's not like 50-50 (tho my 'contribution' may well be 50%), and it seems to diffuse any tension that might have occurred. If someone says no (and no man has ever said no), then next time it's my treat. I also offer to leave the tip if it looks like 'contributing' isn't gonna fly.
I have more fights with my goilfriends about this issue than I ever did with fellas. 8-D
Shar
> Its an honest question. I don't understand why its up to the man to pay if a womans working.
> I would sure like it if a man paid, but I'd not expect it. It seems like holding onto the traditions that are convenient for us and getting angry about the ones we don't like (women being paid less for example)
>
> I meant that as a question though, really.
> I'm open to hearing different sides.
Posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:51:33
In reply to Re: Why should the man pay? » gabbix2, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 16:52:55
OK, I agree with part of this, too. If a man asks someone out, then the expectation is that he'll pay. Just like if he asked her to the opera or something, he'd provide the tickets. But, it works both ways (or should, in my opinion).
If it's a hey, let's get together thing, then splitting things up makes sense. And I still believe that if the guy pays for the first time out, I pay for the second.
Moreover, I always felt that by paying my share, I was making a statement (even if only to myself) that I was not obligated to put out. Plus, I wouldn't put out for dinner; it'd have to be something big, like a new car. :)
Shar
> > Its an honest question. I don't understand why its up to the man to pay if a womans working.
> > I would sure like it if a man paid, but I'd not expect it. It seems like holding onto the traditions that are convenient for us and getting angry about the ones we don't like (women being paid less for example)
> >
> > I meant that as a question though, really.
> > I'm open to hearing different sides.
>
>
> I could be opening up a can of worms, and this is strictly my opinion, which isn't carved in stone or in any way the only opinion that I feel is "right".
>
> Most of the time, when men (who aren't physically handicapped in some way) pursue women, they are ultimately looking for sex (every man I've asked who has been honest with me has admitted this). Women seem to be looking more for security, love, commitment, etc. than they are for sex (I'm excluding female sex-aholics who seem to be in the minority). The men enjoy the security, love and commitment, too, but that's not usually what they're originally seeking.
>
> Could women be seeking these things because they are often not earning as much as men? If a woman makes more money than the average man is she still looking for these things, or does she then have a different perspective? Such as seeking companionship strictly for fun (sex and/or companionship).
>
> The women who truly enjoy sex seem to be the ones who feel fulfilled in their lives, whether financially, career-wise or romantically.
>
> Because men are usually the ones pursuing women for their ulterior motive, sex, I guess tradition has always had it that they are the ones who pay for trying. Even if they don't succeed, the women owes them nothing. A women agrees to have sex because she is ready and willing, even if it means waiting until the couple is married. Some men seem to enjoy the pursuit. Others resent being financially responsible for a date, even if they, too, are seeking sex, maybe because many women do have a higher earning capacity then they used to?
> Not all are tending children at home and 100% dependent on their husband's salary, or earning $8.00 an hour as a receptionist. Is this where many men would still like us ALL to be? Thankfully, I don't think so.
>
> The modern men of today have learned to share responsibilities at home and come to grips with the fact that their wife may earn the same or more than they do.
> Should a man such as this be expected to pay for a date when he has asked her out? Absolutely, and it has nothing to do with earning power, and everything to do with desire. He or she who desires will do what it takes to accomplish his mission. That goes for females, too.
>
> If I were single and extremely interested in a man who showed little interest in me I would try to appear as enticing as possible subtly. If that didn't work, I might send a friendly e-mail asking if he had seen such and such movie and would he like to come? If he said yes, I would glady pay for his ticket, too, although if he offered to pay for mine, I would see that as a sign that he wanted to "take care of me". I don't know if this is bad, but I certainly would enjoy it! The kiss afterwards would all depend on the chemistry during the date.
Posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:56:22
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already...maybe not, posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 18:13:27
>
> So I think that we might find chivalry attractiveI agree wholeheartedly. It comes down to, what is chivalry? Paying for a meal or movie tickets may be custom, but chivalry has to do with respectful behavior (note I did not say respect, which may or may not accompany respectful behavior), imo. And, respectful behavior goes for women, too, IMO.
Feministly yours,
Shar
Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 23:28:46
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » kara lynne, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 19:09:27
Just like in the movies, the rivalry turns to love.. I wish that could happen to me.
For me a friend or a friendly rival has never turned into anything else.
Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 23:39:42
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already...maybe not, posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:56:22
it's not the money, it's the dance step. I used to insist on paying half, and I think guys got the message I didn't really want them to court me. So I tried letting them pay, and discovered it makes me feel more vulnerable, and more romantic. I even let my male friends pay if they offer, I figure I'm doing them a favor to let them 'be the man' especially if they're older.
I asked men out before, and paid, but it just doesn't really feel right. It throws off the steps.
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 1:09:56
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » Dinah, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 19:16:42
Thank heavens for memories of happy times, better bodies, and prettier faces. That's probably what keeps love alive in a lot of marriages. And on my side too. Not that my husband looks worse now than in high school. Goodness no. You know how a lot of men age beautifully. Mine keeps getting better. But I think it keeps the love alive when I look in his eyes and see a reflection of a sort of blending of who I am now and who I was then, rather than a mirror of who I am now.
Posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 1:17:30
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » WorryGirl, posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 1:09:56
Aw shucks, that's even more romantic. I've known women who found their mate in their 50s (my mom and another close friend come to mind) and they treasured pictures of their mate from his youth. They took pride in how beautiful he looked when young, even though they had only known the broken-in version.
Posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 2:11:13
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 1:17:30
discussed it all in therapy, came home and called the guy, asked if we could drive together or else he could pick me up.. he offered to pick me up.. we talked for some time, it was nice enough. he's a decent guy, another human being, maybe not my summer fling fantasy,, darn, but it all feels better now.
I'm embarrassed to be so worked up over all this.. first date since my long voluntary single phase.. it brings back all the bad memories, all the fears it will be the same disappointment and pain, anger, confusion, obsession, all that stuff. the whole mating thing is so difficult,,
Therapist also suggested a pick-up line for my gorgeous young video store clerk.. since I'm confused about whether he's really flirting or just being friendly.. she suggested I could say 'I wish I were ten years younger, I'd ask you out' see what he comes back with. I'll ponder whether I have the courage for that one. Yikes. Scary stuff.
Posted by lostsailor on April 3, 2003, at 2:46:30
In reply to Re: the guy is picking me up after all, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 2:11:13
Posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2003, at 5:17:19
In reply to Re: the guy is picking me up after all, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 2:11:13
Yup. Beardy knows best! : )>
(Just joking, of course.)
I'm bold, so I would just ask the clerk if he had a girlfriend. If he said no, I'd ask if he wanted one. If he said yes, I'd ask if he wanted a new one.
beardy : )>
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 11:01:53
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 1:17:30
Well, I don't want to give the impression that it's too romantic. When I look in his eyes I also see the reflection of some pretty ugly things. Of a person who will never be what he expects. I don't mean that in a bad way, exactly. He's a very competent person who holds himself and everyone else to very high standards. And I haven't a prayer of meeting those standards.
But as far as physical stuff goes, I don't think he realizes what I actually look like, thank heavens.
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 11:03:12
In reply to Re: the guy is picking me up after all, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 2:11:13
That's good, Tabitha. At least you won't go into the date angry. Those therapists are good for something aren't they?
Posted by shar on April 3, 2003, at 20:46:22
In reply to Re: on paying.., posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 23:39:42
Posted by gabbix2 on April 3, 2003, at 22:04:02
In reply to ok, different drummers and all that...8-D (nm) » Tabitha, posted by shar on April 3, 2003, at 20:46:22
Yeah. Just have a good time however you like it. You deserve it Tabitha. Besides I've been screwed over by both types (weary chuckle)
Posted by Jonathan on April 4, 2003, at 1:57:24
In reply to Re: the guy is picking me up after all, posted by Tabitha on April 3, 2003, at 2:11:13
> No way is he getting inside my house, I probably won't even let him pick me up here.
> he just asked me if I know where the theater is and didn't offer to pick me up. I'm thinking.. gee, this could the type of guy who'll buy only one ticket and expect me to buy my own.
> discussed it all in therapy, came home and called the guy, asked if we could drive together or else he could pick me up.. he offered to pick me upThis is very confusing for a man who has only ever dated European women, and who hasn't been on a first date since my minus-third wedding anniversary last century. (She Who Must Be Obeyed chose both the art gallery and the park we walked in, since we were in her home town. We got there by bus and underground and returned to her home by taxi (I paid) after getting soaked in a thunderstorm. It was perfect.) You Americans are so serious about dating, it's hard to see how it can still be fun for you.
I'm glad your initial problems seem to be sorted out; I hope there won't be any more (like, if he brings his mother on the date, should you sit in the back of the car with her, or in front with him, or in the back on your own?)
I hope you'll enjoy a great evening, Tabitha; you deserve it and your date is a very lucky man.
While the local flea-pit may not be the most exciting venue for a first date, his choice of film sounds promising. You must mean Cronenberg's film of the novel "Spider, by Patrick McGrath" (3310 hits for the title "Spider", so I included the author in the double-doubles), which wouldn't be a bad choice for PB Book of the Month. We saw it a few weeks ago, our nth date (where n > the greatest number up to which I can count). Went by train; walked to station; I paid, with cash from joint account.
It's a thought provoking film and worth seeing more than once. Perhaps the video store clerk could take you to see it again, if he's old enough to drive and has a car.
I'm looking forward to hearing how you got on.
Posted by Jonathan on April 4, 2003, at 2:01:45
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » kara lynne, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 19:09:27
> I call my OCD "Ruth", which is just one of my techniques for making it less threatening.
> I pursued my husband like a hungry cheetah after a gazelle.
> I was a completely different person in tenth and twelfth grades (and part of my freshman year of college). Flirtatious and somewhat outgoing. Giddy happy.Ruthless?
Posted by Tabitha on April 4, 2003, at 2:35:41
In reply to Baffled by complexities of US dating etiquette » Tabitha, posted by Jonathan on April 4, 2003, at 1:57:24
Jonathan, your wife is the lucky woman.
Who are you calling serious? I'm trying to have fun, really. I've never been cut out for light fluffy fun dating experiences.. so I'm trying to learn dangit! Fun-- You will be mine!
You were right about the film, it was Cronenberg's Spider, and I found it totally engrossing.
Now that I've gushed so freely about the whole episode, I'm shy about posting the details. I'll just say the date was enjoyable, and he asked me out again. So there, I've dipped my toe back into the dating water, and no major mishaps yet.
Posted by Dinah on April 4, 2003, at 5:19:21
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » Dinah, posted by Jonathan on April 4, 2003, at 2:01:45
Posted by Dinah on April 4, 2003, at 5:25:41
In reply to Re: Baffled by complexities of US dating etiquette » Jonathan, posted by Tabitha on April 4, 2003, at 2:35:41
> Jonathan, your wife is the lucky woman.
Isn't she just?
> Who are you calling serious? I'm trying to have fun, really. I've never been cut out for light fluffy fun dating experiences.. so I'm trying to learn dangit! Fun-- You will be mine!
That's the attitude Tabitha. Go for what you want. And I do recall fun. It was nice.
> You were right about the film, it was Cronenberg's Spider, and I found it totally engrossing.
>
> Now that I've gushed so freely about the whole episode, I'm shy about posting the details. I'll just say the date was enjoyable, and he asked me out again. So there, I've dipped my toe back into the dating water, and no major mishaps yet.Awww, no fair! You're supposed to tell your girlfriends all about it. (I haven't first dated since high school, of course).
But seriously, Tabitha. I'm happy for you. I remember when your therapist was giving you assignments on the subject, and now look at you. :)
Posted by Dinah on April 4, 2003, at 5:26:34
In reply to Re: Baffled by complexities of US dating etiquette, posted by Dinah on April 4, 2003, at 5:25:41
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:32:02
In reply to Re: Baffled by complexities of US dating etiquette » Jonathan, posted by Tabitha on April 4, 2003, at 2:35:41
Tabitha--sounds great. You enjoyed and have another opportunity to see this guy again. SOunds like success!
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 4, 2003, at 11:34:01
In reply to Re: Baffled by complexities of US dating etiquette, posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:32:02
Dating in the US does seem very different to UK dating.. from what my friends in the US tell me, its not as serious as it is here.. in that you can date without wanting it to go further!!
One ofmy hsuabnds best friend who lives in New York was, a while ago, dating a very famous movie star.. when I quizzed on it she said "oh, I think he could be gay, and he's not my type at all" I asked why she was still dating him.. she said cos you date for fun, not for what might come of it... I was busy planning a big Hollywood wedding too!! *pouts* She's currently dating another movie star (not as famous as previous one though!) and say that she really likes him, but couldn;t imagine ever sleeping with him, so they date as friends. This isn;t something I've come across over here.. you can go out with the opposite sex as friends, but you wouldn't call it a date!! And then there's "play dates" for kids- again not something I've ever come across here.. but a good idea I think!
OK, I;m rambling now..
Nikki x
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