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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jaynee on December 16, 2002, at 11:05:39
I was talking to my bestfriend last night. Unfortunately, she thought she had cancer beaten, but found out it has spread to her brain, which is not good. That is not what I wanted to talk about though, but she asked me what I did all day, and I said nothing. I slept most of the day, about 4 to 5 hours. I said I was just feeling kind of tired. She asked if I had slept last night and I said yes, about 10 or 11 hours. She asked if I was still depressed. I said I didn't think so. So she said, what is it then, normal people don't do that. I called it indifference, I just didn't care about going out or doing anything.
I don't know if I am depressed, certainly I would know, wouldn't I? I get bouts of clinical depression, that comes on like a bolt of lightening, with the super acute anxiety, so I have no mistake I am depressed. But this is just, "I don't give a shit attitude." The sun hasn't been out for a long time, and that could have something to do with it. I don't know anymore.
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 16, 2002, at 11:24:17
In reply to Question?, posted by Jaynee on December 16, 2002, at 11:05:39
What medication are you currently taking and at what dosage? That might be a sign. If you're taking too little, your depression could be coming back which could cause the increase in sleep. However, if you're taking too much, same thing.
Posted by daizy on December 16, 2002, at 13:50:55
In reply to Re: Question? » Jaynee, posted by Mr Cushing on December 16, 2002, at 11:24:17
I am currently asking the exact same question, I'll let you know if I find an answer!
Posted by Jaynee on December 16, 2002, at 14:01:55
In reply to Re: Question? » Jaynee, posted by Mr Cushing on December 16, 2002, at 11:24:17
Currently, I am not taking anything. I am in Canada and I am waiting for either Lexapro or atomextine. I have only tried Celexa. I took it for 8 months and did well on it. But it did make me a little lazy, although I am starting to feel the same without any chemical help.
I have also quit drinking, which can get me into trouble. I don't drink all the time, it is just when I start I don't stop until I am completely out of it.
I am trying to force myself to leave the house today. But I would rather crawl back into bed, because I like it there, not because I am tired. The only good thing is I am leaving soon for a trip to the deep south and hopefully sunshine. I am looking forward to that. I think it might be SAD. I can't stand myself right now, I am getting fatter and fatter and lazier and lazier. Up until about 2 weeks ago I was running 5 km, 3 to 4 times a week, now I can't seem to get my big fat ass out the door. I guess I just got to suck it up and make myself do things.
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 16, 2002, at 16:15:14
In reply to Re: Question?, posted by Jaynee on December 16, 2002, at 14:01:55
Well, hello from a fellow Canadian. I'm out in Ottawa, where are you?K, I'll go through a list of questions for depression for you then. This should help you figure out exactly where you are.
Mark each question with a 1-4 rating depending on how well it relates to you.
The starred items (2, 5, 6, 11, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, and 20) are reverse-scored (a little of the time = 4 and most of the time = 1). The remaining items are scored from 1 (a little of the time) to 4 (most of the time).
#1) I feel down-hearted and blue
#2) Morning is when I feel the best *
#3) I have crying spells or feel like it
#4) I have trouble sleeping at night
#5) I eat as much as I used to *
#6) I still enjoy sex *
#7) I notice that I am losing weight
#8) I have trouble with constipation
#9) My heart beats faster than usual
#10) I get tired for no reason
#11) My mind is as clear as it used to be *
#12) I find it easy to do the things I used to *
#13) I am restless and can't keep still
#14) I feel hopeful about the future *
#15) I am more irritable than usual
#16) I find it easy to make decisions *
#17) I feel that I am useful and needed *
#18) My life is pretty full *
#19) I feel that others would be better off if I were dead
#20) I still enjoy the things I used to do *Now add up your score to that. Generally, people who have scores of less than 50 are considered not depressed and those in the 50-59 range, mildly depressed. People with scores in the 60-69 range have a moderate to marked level of depression that warrants the attention of a doctor or therapist; and over 70 indicates a serious and probably incapacitating depression that urgently requires treatment (Nezu et al., 2000; Zung, 1965).
That should give you some sort of idea as to where you are in the depression scale.
Posted by Jaynee on December 16, 2002, at 17:09:23
In reply to Re: Question? » Jaynee, posted by Mr Cushing on December 16, 2002, at 16:15:14
Hello fellow Canadian.
Well according to that I am not depressed. Although I just ate half a box of chocolate, which makes me hyper and feeling good, so I will try it again, later and see what happens. My moods go up and down, not like bi-polar up and down, but definitely up and down. I have been told I have ADD, when I was a kid it would have been ADHD, but now it is just ADD. So that may very well be why my mood is so yo-yo like.
I am in the interior of BC, where the sun never shines in the winter.
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 16, 2002, at 17:27:11
In reply to Re: Question?, posted by Jaynee on December 16, 2002, at 17:09:23
Could this describe you then?Cyclothymic Disorder:
Do you have...
Short periods of feeling active, irritable, and excited?
Short periods of feeling mildly depressed?
A tendency to alternate back and forth between the two?
To make matters even more complicated, you can have a fluctuating form of mood disorder marked by short periods of hypomania alternating with short, mild periods of depression. To have cyclothymic disorder, you have must alternated between high and low periods for at least two consecutive years and never be without mood disorder symptoms for more than two months at a time.
For example...
"Katherine was a 30-year-old woman who, since adolescence, had experienced a pattern of alternating between three-day periods in which she cried a lot and felt sad and less interested in things, followed by another three-day period in which she would feel irritable, energetic, and talkative. SHe had never been hospitalized for either her depressive or hypomanic symptoms, nor had she been suicidal, unable to concentrate, or lost significant amounts of weight. Her boyfriend sometimes complained about her moodiness and ragefulness. Although it was more difficult for her to work when she was depressed, she had never lost a job because of it."
Posted by Jaynee on December 16, 2002, at 20:21:25
In reply to Re: Question? » Jaynee, posted by Mr Cushing on December 16, 2002, at 17:27:11
Well, I do have periods of feeling active, talkative, etc, and periods of feeling like crap. But most people I know do, or people I am related to do. Then again I'm attracted to people who have an edge, otherwise I get to bored.
I have never been hospitalized overnight, but I have had periods, usually every 5 to 6 years, of clinical depression. When this happens I don't function, I can't work, eat, sleep, etc., the anxiety is out of this world. Basically my whole body is vibrating from anxiety, to the point where it just shuts down. My last bout was Dec 2001. So I figure I am due for another major bout around 2005. My husband has complained about my moodiness and rages, but he also just told me that he thinks I am boring on anti-depressants. Go figure. Unlike Katherine, I have lost jobs, mostly because I have pissed off someone beyond repair. I always thought I was the way I was because I am very sensitive to what I eat and my environment, and just can't put up with alot of crap.
What is the cure for this cyclothymic disorder? If I even have this.
Thanks for all your help.
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 16, 2002, at 20:39:53
In reply to Re: Question?, posted by Jaynee on December 16, 2002, at 20:21:25
Cyclothemia is just a very mild form of Bi-Polar disorder. I honestly can't think of any Mood Disorder that only cycles every 4-5 years. Like you get really depressed and have horrible anxiety for a few months, then it just disappears completely for about 4 years or so? Damn... this is the first time in about 10 years that I can remember being free from any symptoms of my disorder.
Posted by Jaynee on December 16, 2002, at 22:46:10
In reply to Re: Question?, posted by Mr Cushing on December 16, 2002, at 20:39:53
Yes that is what happens. I never took any AD before this last bout. I just took ativan to sleep and then just worked really hard at getting better. Better nutrition, read every available book on CBT, and tried to practice that, Lots of vitamins, and different herbal type remedies. Meditation and exercise, quit drinking for a year. Once I get the anxiety under control, I am on my way to being better. Clair Weekes books were a life saver. The bouts of extreme anxiety, last about a month, and the depression, usually takes 6 months to a year to go away, with or without the AD.
I am not someone who has a hard time talking about my depression/anxiety, and when I get really bad, I ask for help. I have 4 very close girlfriends who are on anti-depressants. One friend in particular, gets exactly what I get. Her bouts come on every so many years as well. We both went through our last bout together. She is in Ontario as well. So we spent many hours on the phone and email, talking one another through it. My last bout I phoned and asked her about Desyrl, because that is what she had to take to sleep last time she had her bout, she got mad at her husband because she thought he had told me she was depressed again. I said no, I am going through hell right now, and she said, weird because she too was having a rough time. So it was beneficial to have someone else who could completly relate. My husband didn't know what to make of it. Because he had never really seen me like that and couldn't relate at all.
I also ask my mother to fly up and help with my daughter who is a teenager, and an amazingly good kid, but I was unable to cope with anything. My mom said her and my dad where sitting in church, and they realized that they were sitting with two very close couple friends, both of who had a child who had killed themselves. So needless to say my mom came as soon as she could. Also, I was at a B-ball tourney of my daughters and I was talking to a mother of another girl. She asked how I was doing, so I was honest. She said she knew all about anxiety and that she had been taking clonaxepam for 4 years. She said prozac was okay, but paxil made things worse. Another mother, said she had been on prozac for 8 years. So it was really neat that these women, opened up and told me what worked for them and that they knew what I was talking about.
I don't feel shame about getting sick, it is just something that happens. I have had to deal with these bouts since I was a kid. I have suffered no abuse of any type, so whatever goes wrong, just goes wrong. I think mostly my problem stems from having hemochromatosis, oh well.
I am an intelligent, compassionate, sympathetic and decent human, who sometimes gets mentally ill. So what!!!! There are worse things. What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger. I think depression, makes us better human beings. It means we feel to much, which is better than being numb.
Posted by IsoM on December 17, 2002, at 1:19:48
In reply to Re: Question?, posted by Jaynee on December 16, 2002, at 22:46:10
Jaynee, if you were diagnosed with ADHD before, the ADD symptoms can include depression. I have a number of friends with ADD (I'm ADHD too) & I notice that most of us have some of the same symptoms. Depression is one of them. It's not always the typical depression but varies between a lack of motivation, low, glum, irritable at times, emotionally worn out & such. But it's not always consistent.
When a person has ADD, I noticed (at least with my friends & I), that we can get all enthused about something but after a burst of activity (whether it's a day or a couple of days), we're emotionally worn out & feel a need to draw back, stay quiet & recharge. I've had this most of my life. Busy, do a lot for a day or two, then don't want to do anything or see anyone for a couple of days. I feel like I've maxed out on my resources & have nothing left. The enthusiastic days tend to be followed by days of low energy & apathy.
In winter, the days of energy are rarer & shorter, while the low energy days are longer & more frequent.
When I was diagnosed with ADHD (about 4 yearr ago), the psychologist who did the testing said that antidepressants tend to be good for helping control the impulsiveness that often accompanies depression. I'm not as impulsive in talking out of term & have better self-control with that. I assumed it was because I was finally gaining control & maturing but I had been taking ADs for almost 13 years by then. With the addition of Dexedrine, my days of apathy are fewer & pretty mild now. I can space out my moods much more evenly now. I will still feel tired emotionally & physically some times when I've been particularly there's been too much stimuli, either from working hard, or handling too much emotionally stressing business.
Does any of what I'm describing sound like it may apply to you?
Posted by Jaynee on December 17, 2002, at 1:54:23
In reply to Re: Question? ADD or depression? » Jaynee, posted by IsoM on December 17, 2002, at 1:19:48
IsoM, yes that sounds very much like me. I did read the book "Driven to Distraction", and it all made sense. I guess I should re-read it, because I have forgotten most of it.
The last pdoc I saw refused to see me anymore, because I refused to take drugs for the ADD, and therefore he said he couldn't help me. It was hard enough for me to get the courage to take Celexa. I know I need something, and I have decided I am going to try atomoxetine, when it is released in Canada. Who knows when that will be, but I will hang on until then. I am just to chicken shit to try the stimulants. I can't tolerate coffee, at all, so I don't know how I would tolerate any stimulant. My sister takes ritalin when she really has to concentrate, and she says it is fine, but I haven't got the courage to take it. I am too afraid it will cause panic/anxiety, there that is it, that is my fear about taking a stimulant. So I think I will wait for the atomoxetine(I think that is how you spell it).
Thanks for replying, I do appreciate it. I have been coming to Psycho-babble to much lately, and have promised to cut back. As you know we ADD'ers, can tend to hyper-focus on things.
Take care.
Posted by Jaynee on December 17, 2002, at 2:01:50
In reply to Re: Question? ADD or depression?, posted by Jaynee on December 17, 2002, at 1:54:23
Posted by Phil on December 17, 2002, at 6:02:59
In reply to Re: Question? ADD or depression? » Jaynee, posted by IsoM on December 17, 2002, at 1:19:48
Isom, Haven't read the whole thread but you certainly described my situation well. Thanks.
Phil
Posted by IsoM on December 17, 2002, at 11:43:23
In reply to Re: Question? ADD or depression? » IsoM, posted by Phil on December 17, 2002, at 6:02:59
The psychologist who tested me for ADD told me that depression is fairly common among ADDers.
We stress easily & very quickly when something bothers us.
We often deal with years of frsutration at trying to fit into the linear, non-ADD world.
We tend to feel frustrated with ourselves if we don't understand the nature of ADD. The limitations of having a scattered focus, short memory, little sense of time passing & therefore poor time management, frustration of never seeming to know where we last put something, & on & on.It's only normal to be frustrated & depressed for someone who doesn't have a wife to keep track for them, or a personal secretary to deal with these minor mundane matters that are, nonetheless, very important to function well. Extrapolate that kind of life into years of trying to cope & no wonder most ADDers have depression. It has long term effects on our neurotransmitter levels that can lead to true clinical depression.
I found that ADs treated the depression (sort of) & impulsiveness but did little for focus & alertness plus general 'joi de vive'. That's why stimulants have been such a godsend for me. Both Dexedrine & Provigil have done wonders, both in different ways.
Jaynee, some people who can't tolerate caffeine have no difficulties with stimulants. Both affect the CNS but in different ways. Ask for a sample dose instead. And personally, I find anxiety goes way down on stims for me. I tend to find my anxiety worsened by my lack of focus & poor memory.
And Phil, I can't remember (it's from early this year, I think) what you take as meds. Have you ever tried the approach of treating your depression with stims too?
Posted by IsoM on December 17, 2002, at 11:44:53
In reply to IsoM, an article that might interest you., posted by Jaynee on December 17, 2002, at 2:01:50
Posted by IsoM on December 17, 2002, at 12:17:43
In reply to IsoM, an article that might interest you., posted by Jaynee on December 17, 2002, at 2:01:50
One thing I didn't experience was post-partum depression. Even with colicky babies (I managed to find treatment for the last 2 but not the 1st) & frequent night wakenings & missing sleep, I felt great after my pregnancies. I do attritube it to nursing them though. When a mother nurses, it releases oxytocin, a hormone that letd down the milk. It's also been nicknamed the 'cuddle hormone'. All I know is I felt sublimely content with my warm child in my arms nursing him. That warm feeling persists long enough till I nursed again. So I ended up nursing for much, much longer than most women do. I loved the bond it forged between the mother & child, & knew that when I stopped, the gentle peaceful feelings would fade too.
I wonder how many women who seriously nurse their babies with no bottles of pacifiers experience postpartum depression? I've never seen a study checking into that aspect & am curious.
Posted by Jaynee on December 17, 2002, at 12:49:00
In reply to about the article,,, » Jaynee, posted by IsoM on December 17, 2002, at 12:17:43
IsoM, I didn't get post-partum either. I would have been the perfect candidate, but it didn't happen. I tried to breast feed, but I got an infection and once they put me on anti-biotics, I dried up like a prune. I was young and kind of freaked out by the whole process, plus I had an absolute idiot for a husband, but absolutely no anxiety, and no real depression to speak of. But then again, with me the depression seems to come every 5 to 6 years, no matter what.
But I do want to treat the ADD, for the first time in my life. Which in itself is a scary thing for me. To actually be able to reach my full potential is going to change a lot of things. I had so many oportunities, athletic scholarship (which I quit), modelling, etc, all of which I screwed up, by being a screw up. I am too old and fat to model again, or high jump, but there are so many things I want to sink my teeth into. I want to be able to follow through with things. I just finished school and passed my national certification exam, so I was thrilled about that. It was the first thing I have ever really stuck with and finished. It took me a while, but I was so f%&*#n proud of myself. My siblings all have master or doctorate degrees, I know that mine is only a 2 year diploma, but I am just so thrilled. I used to be embarrased by that, but not anymore. I know I was given the short end of the deal, but I am going to make the most of it. What was even neater, was how proud my daughter was. My father always called me a quiter, so now I always email him stuff on what it is like to live with ADD and depression/anxiety. Just to piss him off/ and let him know they gave me these crappy genes.
I know getting something that helps with the distraction will change my life. I just hope I am ready for it.
Thanks for all your help once again.
Posted by Phil on December 17, 2002, at 17:42:31
In reply to depression tied in with ADD, posted by IsoM on December 17, 2002, at 11:43:23
Yeah, Ritalin and now Adderall 90mg a day.
And...Wellbutrin 400mg
Clonazepam 3mg
Lexapro 20mgIsom, Provigil didn't seem to help me but Ritalin and Adderall have been good. Have you taken other stims, I'm curious about dex.
Also have been thinking of transitioning from Clonazepam to Xanax. I've heard Xanax has some AD properties and I think Klonopin is making my hair fall out. I love Klonopin, it's a great drug, but I really don't want to lose my hair.
Unless by nature.
Posted by Dinah on December 17, 2002, at 19:16:22
In reply to about the article,,, » Jaynee, posted by IsoM on December 17, 2002, at 12:17:43
I was seriously post-partum for the seven months I breast fed. So much so that they really wanted me to stop breast feeding, since I refused to take meds while breast feeding.
I'm hoping that my depression didn't interfere with my bonding. I hope it didn't. But I have a memory of sitting in the rocker with the baby, singing him a song while crying my eyes out. And everything seemed both so grey and so absolutely nightmarish.
It was a heck of a bind. Breast feeding was good for the baby. My depression was bad for the baby. I guess we just do the best we can.
Posted by IsoM on December 18, 2002, at 2:21:01
In reply to Re: about the article,,, » IsoM, posted by Dinah on December 17, 2002, at 19:16:22
Thanks for telling me your experience. Maybe nursing does help for some, but not if postpartum depression is severe. What a horrible thing for you to have when it should've been a happy time. Did you feel *any* reduction in pain or anxiety from nursing? I wonder if it might've been worse if you didn't nurse?
Don't worry about how you might've affected your son with your depression. The fact you nursed him, refusing meds, & sang to him will count far more. It's not just the health benefits of mother's milk. While a baby does pick up on our feelings, what probably made a lasting impression on his baby mind was your warmth & smell, cradling arms, & rocking & singing. I think you did wonderfully & should be proud of your concern & unselfish giving to your little guy. How I feel for you thinking of you crying as you sang to him. You do sound like you forged a strong bond with him. I'm sure of it.
Posted by IsoM on December 18, 2002, at 2:28:02
In reply to Re: depression tied in with ADD » IsoM, posted by Phil on December 17, 2002, at 17:42:31
The only other stims I took was Ritalin. It worked fairly good but I didn't like its lack of smoothness. Too up & then down. Dexedrine doesn't do that for me. Ritalin didn't make my moods worse but it didn't make me feel more expansive & caring like Dexedrine does.
Provigil is subtle, Phil. Start it up, or stop it, & little difference is noticed. But longer term, it helps my memory & focus. AND it's a good, but again subtle, AD. It's a real mood brightener for me.
I didn't fill my last refill as I was trying to cut costs. But I sure notice the change for the worse the last few weeks. My irritable edge is showing more & I'm stressing out easier over small matters. I've refilled my prescription so will improve in a short while. I guess I need it all the more that winter's in full swing.
Posted by Phil on December 18, 2002, at 6:47:09
In reply to Re: depression tied in with ADD » Phil , posted by IsoM on December 18, 2002, at 2:28:02
Isom, I asked my doc about another go with Provigil not long ago and she said she wasn't sure how much my liver could take. haha All my liver screens and blood work are normal, thank the lady upstairs. Thanks, Isom.
Posted by IsoM on December 18, 2002, at 11:38:29
In reply to Re: depression tied in with ADD » IsoM, posted by Phil on December 18, 2002, at 6:47:09
I understand her concern but while patients should have their liver tested when using Provigil (at least initially), it's not modafinil (Provigil) that can cause liver problems but adrafinil. Mention that to her. If your liver handled it okay before (If you took it for 3 months or so), it shouldn't be a problem for you.
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