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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Miller on December 6, 2002, at 6:38:24
I owe all of you an apology. "What kind of person are you?" Well... pathetic obviously. I did not mean to cause harm or damage. I certainly did not mean for anyone to take offence to my postings. I want Tina to know that the choice is hers to make.
I will leave it at that so as not to cause more destruction.
I'm sorry. I will no longer post here. Thanks for the support while I was new here.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2002, at 8:11:17
In reply to Sharing..., posted by Miller on December 6, 2002, at 6:38:24
Hi Miller,
I know your name; you mostly post on Psycho-Psycho Babble.
I also remember that you have very recently been extremely suicidal. I'm assuming that because of that you empathized with Tina's plans, and were in fact not trying to be unsupportive of Tina, but were expressing your own suicidal ideation.
I'm glad you didn't kill yourself over Labor Day. I know how know how comforting it is to have a plan. I'm guessing that most of us have one. But I hope that it remains to you like the dream of running off to Tahiti, merely a dream, a way to escape when a lack of a vision of escape seems intolerable.
You are relatively new to the board, and probably weren't aware of Dr. Bob's civility rules. Moreover I'm not actually positive that this is in the rules. However, here is a link where Dr. Bob makes his policy clear:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021108/msgs/127288.html
Tina is cared about by a lot of people here, and they reacted in a protective fashion towards her. We all want to support Tina to live. And so some things were said to you that come from that feeling.
But if you stick around long enough (and I know it will be hard and take courage) to let us get to know you too, and to know your own struggles with suicidal urges and as you reach out to others (to support and encourage them to live), you may find that people will also have the desire to support the part of you that still wants to live.
Best wishes to you, whether you decide to leave or to stay on the board. And please choose, as we all dearly hope Tina does, to live.
Dinah
Posted by IsoM on December 6, 2002, at 10:49:01
In reply to Sharing..., posted by Miller on December 6, 2002, at 6:38:24
Please see my post at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20021206/msgs/33026.html
I'm very confused over your intentions. As Dinah says, we're VERY protective of fellow posters & no one wants to see them gone, either through suicide or simply by leaving as you said. But the choice of suicide is *permanent* - that's what's so scary. I'm so upset at the possibility of Tina being gone permanently, I see no new posts by her. I feel sick inside.
Please explain more. You'll have known if you read any of my posts from before that I'm not a cruel or uncaring person. I want to hear your side.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on December 6, 2002, at 11:40:00
In reply to Sharing..., posted by Miller on December 6, 2002, at 6:38:24
> I owe all of you an apology. "What kind of person are you?" Well... pathetic obviously.
------------------------You're not pathetic, Miller, just misguided. I imagine that you only wanted to express empathy with tina and reveal your own despondency. Don't identify with the illusion of yourself that your disease presents.
> I'm sorry. I will no longer post here. Thanks for the support while I was new here.
---------------No one wants you to stop posting, just to back off the suicidal ideation. We don't want you to die, tina to die, or anyone, so we try to keep conversation away from areas that foster that potential. Your apology came from someone who cares about the feelings of others, and isn't pathetic. I don't want you to stop posting here just because of something like this. If this board has benefitted you, please stick with it. You're not a bad person, and no one here is a better person than you. We're all human.
Posted by miller on December 6, 2002, at 13:52:46
In reply to Re: trying to understand you... » Miller, posted by IsoM on December 6, 2002, at 10:49:01
At the risk of offending anyone else, I will try to explain my frame of mind at my post to Tina.
* Tina was SO open and honest about her plan to commit suicide. I felt totally close and empathetic with her. At that moment, I felt as if she and I thought alike. I shared my plan so that she would know that she is not the only person who thinks about, creates, and COUNTS ON a suicide plan. She isn't alone. I understand her need for peace. I felt as if I shared my plan, she would know there are others like her in severe pain. The pain is real. The need for relief is real.
* The paragraph on the suicide experiment was written as I was thinking about all of the "well-meaning" doctors and scientist who THINK they understand. They don't understand. I am tired of these professionals not taking depression and suicide thoughts seriously. My comment regarding the experiment was meant to point out that the experts would be amazed at how many of us are serious.
I hope I have answered the questions you have been looking for. Again, I am sorry for the anger, hurt, and disgust I have caused.
-Miller
Posted by Racer on December 6, 2002, at 14:24:28
In reply to Trying to understand myself...IsoM, posted by miller on December 6, 2002, at 13:52:46
Ya know, Miller, it's funny because when I read your last paragraph of the Post In Question, I took it the opposite way: I wondered how FEW people would actually do it if they had the sort of means you described. My experience with suicidal thoughts and feelings -- and actions -- is that when it's actually in front of me is when I realize how much what I really want is HELP and SUPPORT and ASSISTANCE. That's what I thought you were trying to get across.
I agree absolutely that a lot of doctors out there are really, really terrible for anyone in pain -- especially some of the public health doctors I've seen, since I'm not insured. The people who most need help are least likely to get it in all too many cases. (Mind you, that doesn't mean all PH docs, just that the PHS sometimes has to take what they can get, in a way private groups don't.)
Hell, I had one pdoc tell me that I was so sick, and so screwed up there wasn't really anything anyone could do to help me! The reason for this diagnosis? The AD she prescribed and wouldn't change lowered my BP below 80/60. I couldn't walk across a room without falling down, and was sicking up most of what I tried to eat! She wouldn't change it, and the PHS wouldn't change my doctor. The night I sat with my lethal cocktail in hand, I wrote an open letter to my heirs telling them why they needed to sue the rat bastards for wrongful death, pain and suffering, and medical malpractice. Writing that letter turned out to be the best thing for me, because it got me angry at something or someone outside myself. Still got locked up in a very white room, but at least I told my erstwhile boy friend what was in the glass so no one got hurt by it.
You ever notice how people who are psychically fragile get so sensitive sometimes? (<< little joke on all of us, and a smile and best wishes just for you.)
Posted by gabbix2 on December 6, 2002, at 20:23:25
In reply to Re: Trying to understand myself...IsoM » miller, posted by Racer on December 6, 2002, at 14:24:28
>ever notice how people who are psychically fragile get so sensitive sometimes?
That was good, thanks Racer!
Miller I wasn't offended by the topic of suicide at all, and I've discussed plans with many like-minded friends.
I misinterpreted your intention, It appeared (appears) that Tina was beyond the "thinking about suicide and feeling weird about thinking about it... cycle' where it definatly can be comforting to know someone else has been that tortured and desperate.
It was the timing that made me wonder.
Thank you for making yourself clear and not just leaving, because its a really good place, and I've done more than my share of apologizing..
It was a matter of timing.
Posted by IsoM on December 7, 2002, at 2:07:27
In reply to Trying to understand myself...IsoM, posted by miller on December 6, 2002, at 13:52:46
Miller, I've been pretty familiar with suicide. I lost one friend to it, have had three family members hospitalised for being suicidal at different times (2 of them my sons), & was, myself, going through the motions of a person preparing for suicide without being aware of it. I was giving away all I valued to a few close friends & family, tying up loose ends before death until one son, in recognition of it (even if I wasn't aware), broke down in tears begging me not to do this to him.
I've also watched someone I loved sit motionless for hours just staring into nothing. I felt this person's utter emptiness & nothingness. I know X wanted to die & I had nothing left to say that could provide X with a reason to keep living. The feeling of guilt from being so powerless to do anything is great. You want to say or do something that can make a difference but what can you do when there's nothing left? Like you said, their need for relief is real.
It's not like one has hit rock bottom - it's more like there's an abyss that has no end. If you've been suicidal, then you'll understand what I can't put into words - how horrible it is.
I may be wrong but many people who are very depressed, to the point of contemplating suicide, can't help but be somewhat selfish. Their pain engulfs them to the exclusion of feelings for others, at times. But if such a person has also lost others (like Tina), the idea of joining those dead becomes more attractive.
Thank you for explaining why you posted. I still think it was ill-adviced, but not ill-intentioned now. I know that need for relief is real & *very* strong. I very much hope Tina hasn't killed herself. But I see nothing ob PB. I'll wait & so will others.
Do you notice how much people will use euphemisms for suicide? Instead of killing oneself, other words will be used to describe it. People are loathe to say kill but pretty words doesn't make it any less horrid. I won't pretty it.
Posted by kath on December 17, 2002, at 20:06:25
In reply to Sharing..., posted by Miller on December 6, 2002, at 6:38:24
Dear Miller, I certainly hope you continue to post here - please? Kath xoxo
> I owe all of you an apology. "What kind of person are you?" Well... pathetic obviously. I did not mean to cause harm or damage. I certainly did not mean for anyone to take offence to my postings. I want Tina to know that the choice is hers to make.
>
> I will leave it at that so as not to cause more destruction.
>
> I'm sorry. I will no longer post here. Thanks for the support while I was new here.
>
> -Miller
>
This is the end of the thread.
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