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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jane D on June 5, 2001, at 13:07:34
Mila,
This started with your posting below in the thread about gaps in work history where you suggested that there had to be something positive in periods of illness. At least I think that's what you said. Please correct me if I misunderstood you.
(The original post dated 6/2/01 http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20010526/msgs/6258.html)
Excerpts from that post.
> Avoid seeing those periods as breakdowns yourself. there MUST have been something positive in those periods. Once you find it out, you won't feel like you had gaps in your life anymore.
....
> If anything, tell them about your wonderful resilience and ability to keep going even when it gets tough, gather resourses, rely on other people's help and skills, etc. (isn't it how you conquered your illness?) this is an asset.
...> every year seems today to have been choke full with activity and some productive behavior.
Mila,
I guess I really don't think that this is a positive experience although I'd love to be proved wrong. It may depend on just what variant of mental illness you had. I'm sure that, despite all the common ground apparent in these threads, the details of everyones experience are very different.
One of the things I remember feeling after my first bout of illness (let's call it depression) was that for the first time I had had a negative experience that I couldn't say had any redeeming value. Up to that point I could look at the various scrapes and bruises of growing up and tell myself "well that was awful, but it's part of what made me who I am and I'm ok". The depression was more like a time out. Two decades later I still feel that way.
My experience has been that it is a reduction of experience not a different one. I thought about less and also less clearly. I did less. I noticed less and learned less. And while I certainly thought I was feeling more intensely, in retrospect I'm not so sure. I think it's the contrast between different feelings about different things that gives them meaning. One overwhelming but undirected feeling, like "I hurt", which is about all I could manage, doesn't mean much. I would also include in there variants like "I hurt because x is wrong in my life" to be replaced the next day with "I hurt because y is wrong" and so forth. On really bad days I could only get as far as "I hurt because ..." and then not have enough clearness of mind to figure out what misery to fill in the blanks with. Didn't matter anyway.
I did learn a few things of course. It wasn't quite like going to sleep and waking up years later. But other people learned far more in that time. I learned a few tricks of compensation. I learned that the misery can end and to hang onto that knowledge even when I didn't believe it. But I wouldn't need to know these things if I didn't have depressions so I don't think I gained anything overall.
I also learned some things that I might be better off not knowing. I learned that I have very little control over what I feel and think. I didn't conquer my illness. It left me, with a lot of persuasion from an SSRI. (Who said that first?) If it had happened 20 years sooner I might have believed that it was my strength of will that made it happen. I know that it wasn't. It's hard to live with that knowledge.
All in all, I think the experience is mostly a loss. I think that's what makes it an illness that must be treated. I wouldn't admit this in person however. I don't know a way to say it that doesn't come across as "Pity Me" so when the subject comes up I look for an optimistic spin. I can and do say it's made me more understanding, tolerant, or tougher but I think that when I say this I am lying.
Jane
Posted by mila on June 5, 2001, at 16:55:06
In reply to Is there a positive side?, posted by Jane D on June 5, 2001, at 13:07:34
Hello Jane,I do not really know what to say. I felt the way you describe in your post when i was on SSRI, and for a month or two after. Today I feel so terribly healthy, i quess I am rewriting my memories...
the redeeming value of decades of my untreated depressions and anxieties for me in that they have formed a sharp background for my today's happiness. I am happy and aware of it today, before illness hit me I was happy uncounscously.
you say that during illness you thought about less and less clearly, in my case it is the opposite. I did more and learned more, arguably, I did and I learned things only a depressed person would need to, but so it happens that my son developed some problems and i was able to help him because I recognized the pattern where his teachers, doctors, and school psychologists hadn't. I did felt more intensely, although on the negative side of the range.
when I compare myself to other people I see that i learned more than many, although healthy people in the same time learned deeper. They lack the breadth of knowledge I got, I lack their depth and achievements. still, I do not see any reason to despair or even to furrow my brow, because I am not even 40 yet and a lot lies ahead of me.
I learned that I have an enormous degree of control over my own and other people's thoughts and feelings, but first I had to learn just how horribly unskilled I am in this area.
to me the last 30 years of my life were like walking through a wall of blizzard. It was incredibly heavy, painful, and slow. It's just I am so proud today that I have survived and emerged on the other end of it. I gave myself some time to cry over my losses, or what seemed like losses (years, opportunities, health, unborn children, career, etc.) Now resentment and regret seem to be over too.
the "best" loss of all was to me the loss of all my friends and loved ones. The first 20 years of this trend I recognized the pattern, but did nothing about it, the last 10 years it really sucked. Now i appreciate every person I meet on my way. people are tremendous both in their greatness and misery. I love it all. I learned how to forgive.
I do not see it as mostly a loss today, it was just life, like any other. I do not know what is worst: to lose every member of your family and stay sane, as my friend from Yugoslavia had, or to have it all and not enjoy it as I did because of the devastation of a different kind, from within. Who's to judge.
mila
Posted by Marie1 on June 5, 2001, at 18:06:59
In reply to Re: Is there a positive side?, posted by mila on June 5, 2001, at 16:55:06
This subject really got me thinking. My initial reaction was, how could anything positive have come out of the hell I suffered while seriously depressed? But then I realized two things that probably woulndn't have happened otherwise.
1. I started seeing a psychiatrist. Have had to stare right in the face of drug & alcohol dependencies I cultivated during my "self medicating" phase. This is a very hard thing to do and probably would not have been addressed by me if my shrink hadn't forced the issue.
2. I have always compensated for dysthymia. It was exhausting, but no one ever suspected I had any problems with mental health. However, the major depression I developed was so severe that I became a different person; apparently even my voice changed. My husband & I are fairly social people and have many friends who were shocked by the dramatic change in me (on the few times I "went public"). People who had previously shied away from mental illness were now confronted with someone whom they had always thought was "normal", but who was definitely not "normal" now. They had to think about that and most came to the understanding that depression is a biological illness and can happen to anyone, themselves included. My biological family had to finally understand that our brother's suicide wasn't some aberrant anomaly (they're pictured under the word "denial" in the dictionary ; >)) They have kids and need to accept that this is a disease that runs in our family. And finally, I think my 17 yr. old daughter became a more compassionate person from watching me suffer. Maybe my 10 yr. old too, but that's harder to gauge.
So yes, I'd have to say that, for me at least, there have been some positives to come out of this.Marie
Posted by Jane D on June 5, 2001, at 21:52:46
In reply to Re: Is there a positive side?, posted by mila on June 5, 2001, at 16:55:06
Hi Mila,
I didn't mean to single you out for that dose of gloom. I think I got a bit carried away. You just expressed a view that a lot of people share and that I've had trouble understanding. Thank you for responding so thoughtfully.
> I do not really know what to say. I felt the way you describe in your post when i was on SSRI, and for a month or two after. Today I feel so terribly healthy, i quess I am rewriting my memories...No more than I am. Possibly in a few more months I'll feel like you do. (I really hate thinking that my ideas now are just another predictable stage.) How long has it been since you felt better?
>
> the redeeming value of decades of my untreated depressions and anxieties for me in that they have formed a sharp background for my today's happiness. I am happy and aware of it today, before illness hit me I was happy uncounscously.Yes. That's true.
> you say that during illness you thought about less and less clearly, in my case it is the opposite. I did more and learned more, arguably, I did and I learned things only a depressed person would need to, but so it happens that my son developed some problems and i was able to help him because I recognized the pattern where his teachers, doctors, and school psychologists hadn't. I did felt more intensely, although on the negative side of the range.Do you mean you recognized the problems in your son because you had experienced them yourself or because you were more focused on things?
> when I compare myself to other people I see that i learned more than many, although healthy people in the same time learned deeper. They lack the breadth of knowledge I got, I lack their depth and achievements.That makes sense.
> I learned that I have an enormous degree of control over my own and other people's thoughts and feelings, but first I had to learn just how horribly unskilled I am in this area.
>
> to me the last 30 years of my life were like walking through a wall of blizzard. It was incredibly heavy, painful, and slow. It's just I am so proud today that I have survived and emerged on the other end of it. I gave myself some time to cry over my losses, or what seemed like losses (years, opportunities, health, unborn children, career, etc.) Now resentment and regret seem to be over too.I like the image of the blizzard. It's much more accurate than the more commonly used one of fog. You're right. Surviving is something to be proud of.
>
> the "best" loss of all was to me the loss of all my friends and loved ones. The first 20 years of this trend I recognized the pattern, but did nothing about it, the last 10 years it really sucked. Now i appreciate every person I meet on my way. people are tremendous both in their greatness and misery. I love it all. I learned how to forgive.
>
> I do not see it as mostly a loss today, it was just life, like any other. I do not know what is worst: to lose every member of your family and stay sane, as my friend from Yugoslavia had, or to have it all and not enjoy it as I did because of the devastation of a different kind, from within. Who's to judge."just life, like any other." Good point. I was definately being too self absorbed.
Thanks for your response.
Jane
Posted by Mair on June 7, 2001, at 21:43:34
In reply to Is there a positive side?, posted by Jane D on June 5, 2001, at 13:07:34
>Jane - I realize that this thread may be headed for an end, but I did want to let you know that I thought your post a very eloquent statement about the effects of depression. In the beginning I certainly didn't think of it as a positive experience but I tried to be pretty sanguine, thinking things like "this is just temporary" and "this is just my thing to deal with like other people have to deal with things like diabeties, etc." So I think in a limited way I was trying to put a positive spin on things. This evaporated as time went on and multiple drug trials didn't yield any success. I was forced to occasionally consider that I'd be dealing with this for the rest of my life, and maybe I'd never achieve any sort of lasting (ie. more frequent than not) remission. It's like you sit around and watch time go by, and it's pretty difficult to feel that you haven't wasted all that time. To make it worse, I've gotten to where I no longer have a clear picture of the pre-depression me. My depression totally defines me. I function better than I did when I first got on this roller coaster, but in many respects I function worse because I can no longer delude myself that "this too will pass." I'm a different person in that I'm much more aware of how I react to events and what effect all that may have on my mental health, but correspondingly, with that knowledge, my anxiety level about my immediate and longer term future is off the charts. I realize that there must be positives, but I don't subscribe to the theory that we're all better persons on account of what we've endured. I certainly don't feel emotionally stronger, just emotionally beleaguered.
Thanks for saying alot of what I've felt so well.
Mair
Posted by Jane D on June 8, 2001, at 22:34:45
In reply to Re: Is there a positive side? » Jane D, posted by Mair on June 7, 2001, at 21:43:34
Mair - Thank you for your post. I've been regretting my initial post a bit. I think that it may have come across as too harsh. At the same time I really appreciated yours. I don't want to inflict these worries on anyone who doesn't share them but I do like discovering that there are some people who already do feel them.
I also have lost track of my pre-depression self. I know that there was one - I'm not one of the people who was always depressed. I'm just not sure I'd know it if I did get all the way back.
Jane
This is the end of the thread.
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