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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by coral on April 5, 2001, at 9:07:18
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya, posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:40:54
"...I don't really believe bullies exist in the adult world." Sorry to take an opposing viewpoint but as an HR consultant, I can verify that bullies are very much active today. Take a look at the routine hazing on campuses, or work environments where some employees are routinely subjected to derogatory remarks and actions. The bullies prey on individuals because they're different, (frequently based on race, sex or cultural differences) or often, just because they can. Outside of work, hate crimes are nothing but examples of bullies.
Posted by Ted on April 5, 2001, at 10:38:14
In reply to Re: Phobia of death/dying-Dubya, posted by Janice1 on March 31, 2001, at 18:42:17
Janice,
NOT SO! I had two employers which were run by absolute bullies, no matter how you look at it. I sincerely believe a lot of my problems today began 13 years ago while working for the first of the bullies.
Ted
>As you get older, you will hopefully be worrying
>less and less about bullies - they don't really
>exist in the adult world that I've seen (as long
>as you stay out of jail :+)
>
> Janice
Posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 10:39:32
In reply to dj - Bullies, posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:27:07
Janice,
Always great to hear from you. Love your thoughful, graceful e-comments. Your concern about cultural over-sanitization is a justifiable one. Read an article today which noted how asthma may be the result of kids living in too clean environments and not being exposed to natural environs which are full of microbes, viri, etc. which we need to stimulate our immune systems.
Depression in my view, more and more, is an attempt to sanitize feeling by attempting to stuff it and the way out is to re-connect with those emotions - the good, the bad and the ugly accept them for what they are and deal with them. Am doing that more and more myself and it's making a huge difference....
Having dealt with bullies myself on occasion I know from my experience that if I felt truly intimidated I would try to make myself invisible by clamping down on my emotions when I would have been better off expressing them directly. However, we all learn in our own ways and at our own pace...
Hope you are doing well, too.
dj
Posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 10:47:21
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya, posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:40:54
Bullies exist in all age groups and walks of life. Petty office and academic politics is often about bullying. Spouse abusers are bullies... Cops are sometimes bullies and often are dealing with bullies... Perhaps, J1, you've just learned to disarm them... However, my sense is that Dubya attempts to disarm them by bullying himself - putting himself down and hurting himself before someone else can - learned response, not a good one, and it can be unlearned as soon as one is willing to stand up for oneself.
The opposite extreme is suicide where one shuts oneself down entirely so others can't hurt you. But who's hurting whom, here? Suicide is the ultimate form of passive aggression both towards oneself and those who one is unwilling to stand up to and/or be vunerable with....
Posted by Dubya on April 5, 2001, at 12:05:38
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya, posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:40:54
Phew, a sigh of relief! Actually, I try not to be the 'me' me, I try be the 'me' I would like to be. In doing so, I am able to be more successful in school, etc... Being the real me, I am annoying, say stupid things, talk too much, unmotivated, allergic to everything and need medicines to control it, indifferent, shy (social phobic), anxious and a slow poke. In being the 'me' I want to be, I end up feeling a need to please people, to be extra nice, academically successful, not shy, not allergic, more anxious.
Sounds weird, that's why I am messed up b/c, I am afraid to be me.
Posted by Dubya on April 5, 2001, at 12:06:57
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya, posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:40:54
I would be a failure (from experience) so I'd rather be the 'me' I would like to be, I feel more successful, feel that I am living a fun, fast-paced life. Funny thing is, I am almost as responsible as when I am the 'me'I want to be. SO it seems as if I brought this depression, anxiety, OCD on myself. Janice, or anyone else in this forum, please let me know if you ever feel that there is the 'you' that you want to be and the 'you' that you are.
Posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 12:34:07
In reply to Janice1 2/2, posted by Dubya on April 5, 2001, at 12:06:57
What you are talking about, D, is pitting your real self against your ideal self. If you can't accept yourself as you are, while workinig on becoming who you want to be then you are setting yourself up for a lot of self-hate - depression & anxiety are only flags for what's going on beneath the surface.
If you haven't checked it out already go do some reading at http://www.undoingdepression.com .
http://www.pdseminars.com also has some interesting discussion of these dynamics in their course descriptions - see "Disengaging Depression" and "Come Alive" descriptors - and some of the articles in their Shen newsletter section and in the books they sell there - particularly "A Manual for Life".However understanding intellectually is one thing. Getting it in your gut is another. Good counselling and good friends can help there... but first you need to befriend yourself. Remember: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."!!!!
Posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 1:11:41
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya » Janice1, posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 10:47:21
Wow, is that true? Perhaps I am putting myself down because I was bullied so much that my natural defense now is such? I didn't even realize this until you brought it up, I am glad you did. Perhaps, that is one of the main reasons I am obssessive-compulsive, anxious and perhaps depressed. Through my 'messed' up experiences, I have basically created my depressive problems and am not able to deal with them properly. Am I really unwilling to stick up for myself?
> However, my sense is that Dubya attempts to disarm them by bullying himself - putting himself down and hurting himself before someone else can - learned response, not a good one, and it can be unlearned as soon as one is willing to stand up for oneself.
Posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 1:16:15
In reply to Re: Janice1 2/2 » Dubya, posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 12:34:07
May I ask DJ, what you mean by, "while workinig on becoming who you want to be then you are setting yourself up for a lot of self-hate - depression & anxiety are only flags for what's going on beneath the surface."?
-who (psychiatrist, family doctor?) can help me (counselling-wise) to help me change my messed idealations?
>Good counselling and good friends can help there... but first you need to befriend yourself. Remember: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."!!!!
Posted by dj on April 6, 2001, at 1:59:54
In reply to DJ, I must admit, you have very good advice, posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 1:16:15
What I meant D. is that depression, anxiety and o.c. are the results of the self-hate that you've expressed here at various times. As you learn to practice more compassion for yourself, you will suffer less, though you will still experience pain as we all do. The trick is not to embrace the pain as you are doing but to acknowledge it for what it is and let it go... And a good counsellor or friend is someone you trust, are open with and are willing to learn from and with...
g'night!
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 6, 2001, at 14:28:39
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya re: bullies, posted by coral on April 5, 2001, at 9:07:18
As someone who has been bullied at work with continual abuse over years, I can confirm that bullies occur in adult life. i find peer pressue still exists the same too, but we're hopefully better prepared to deal with it in adult hood...
Bullies will be bullies in one form or another all their lives in my opinion.. a bullying parent, a bullying manager, a bullying spouse.. the list is endless.
Nikki
Posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 19:58:41
In reply to No bullies in adult world??, posted by NikkiT2 on April 6, 2001, at 14:28:39
I am really sick of bullies, maybe I let them take over my life or maybe, but they seem to make a clean get away w/ their attitude/behaviour. Of course, that is my distorted perception.
Posted by dj on April 6, 2001, at 23:50:46
In reply to How come it seems that bullies get away w/things?, posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 19:58:41
> Of course, that is my distorted perception.
There you go, beating yourself up again...
Posted by Dubya on April 7, 2001, at 1:14:40
In reply to Re: How come it seems that bullies get away w/things?, posted by dj on April 6, 2001, at 23:50:46
> > Of course, that is my distorted perception.
>
> There you go, beating yourself up again...That's true, I guess I can agree w/you on that!
Posted by Adam on April 7, 2001, at 15:54:15
In reply to How come it seems that bullies get away w/things?, posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 19:58:41
I think bullies do exist. Some grow out of it when entering adulthood, some don't.
It's difficult to resist the attacks of bullies. If you're not a bully, the behavior of a bully towards you is almost incomprehensible. That may be true even if you ARE a bully.
Some people are just plain stronger/smarter/prettier/whatever than others, or they are convinced they are so, and thus are also able to convince others. They may have status, due to innate qualities or social standing, that gives them power over others. If they use their gifts to hurt other people, they can bully very effectively.
Really terrible bullies may be sociopaths. I read an interesting article in SciAm in which the author hypothesizes that those with violently sociopathic qualities are often not suffering from poor self-esteem. On the contrary, they have pathologically high self-esteem, and feel perfectly entitled to do the terrible things they do to others. Combine a sociopath with someone suffering from depression and terrible feelings of inadequacy, and you've got a uniquely horrid recipe for pain.
I think the best you can do is avoid such people. You probably can't change them or get them to play fair with you. If people you deal with hurt you for their own gratification, leave them. You are not the sick one. They are.
> I am really sick of bullies, maybe I let them take over my life or maybe, but they seem to make a clean get away w/ their attitude/behaviour. Of course, that is my distorted perception.
Posted by Dubya on April 7, 2001, at 21:50:03
In reply to Re: How come it seems that bullies get away w/thin, posted by Adam on April 7, 2001, at 15:54:15
For me, it is not the question of whether or not bullies exist, it is to figure out how to take control of myself and not bully others around while feeling 'adequate'.
Posted by Adam on April 8, 2001, at 13:05:38
In reply to ADAM, WOW, I will strongly consider that!, posted by Dubya on April 7, 2001, at 21:50:03
Well, it's not as easy a balance, I think, as one might first think. I myself was pretty horribly bullied as a child, for one reason, mainly: I was an easy target. I pretty much loathed myself, and it didn't even occur to me most of the time that when I was picked on I ought to feel offended. I just felt unhappy. I recoiled and just hoped to be ignored and left alone. Which, of course, led to times of almost unbearable lonliness.
I got older, and for whatever reason, got tired of it. I just couldn't stand being a loser any more. So I focused on school, got involved in a sport I was good at, begged my parents for some nice clothes, etc. Did all the stuff you needed to do to be popular. And, lo and behold, after I started convincing people I could actually do something more than skulk in a corner, they started to like me. I found out, much to my amazement, that some cute girls thought I was interesting. Cinderella story, right?
Except that, when I felt my "power" increasing, some of the other misfits who were the only people who had low enough self-esteem to not be bothered by my company, these perfectly good people who were my only real friends, were so quickly tossed aside I think they didn't even realize it had happened until I began showing them the same cruelty we had suffered together. I am deeply ashamed of this behavior, but to an extent I realize where it comes from, and I immediately recognized the point the author of the SciAm article was trying to make. It IS very possible to have both high self-esteem and compassion. But distorted self-esteem, coupled with an unhealthy lack of empathy, leads to bullying. It feels good to hurt people, sometimes. It's an awful thing to say, but I think this is a very basic human quality that we must grow out of (or are fortunate enough not to be plagued with) before we can have normal and healthy relationships.
So, when someone bullies you, you might ask yourself, what kind of issues must THIS guy be having if he gets off on making other people feel awful? What the heck is HIS problem, if he somehow thinks this is fun or appropriate?
Imagine how you would feel if you watched a boy torture and kill a frog. Think of a child amusing himself by inflicting suffering and death on another creature. Some little boys do this. Why? My guess is because they can, and because they don't know any better yet. If you feel a bit sick in your stomach thinking about it, count your lucky stars and be very happy that you are a mensch, a compassionate, redeemable human being. Imagine a person, and adult, who might think this image was intriguing, even amusing. Someone who wouldn't recoil. Consider that the person who bullies you the worst might be such an individual. I think this puts things in an amazing perspective. You might find yourself still afraid of this person, still inclined to avoid this person (which is understandable), but for different reasons. You might consider that the reason they repel you is not so much that they reenforce your own negative self-image, but because they are exemplary of some of humanity's most undesirable qualities. You might even feel a little sorry for them. Not because of some sour-grapes, "I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I", platitudinous, and ultimately empty pop-psyche coping mechanism. Rather, because you see that person for what they are, a flawed human being.
> For me, it is not the question of whether or not bullies exist, it is to figure out how to take control of myself and not bully others around while feeling 'adequate'.
Posted by Dubya on April 8, 2001, at 21:24:12
In reply to Re: ADAM, WOW, I will strongly consider that!, posted by Adam on April 8, 2001, at 13:05:38
It's good to hear that you've been out of being bullied. However, you seem to cycle from being an easy target, to a bullier, to sticking up for yourself. Anyways, I hope you understood what I meant by this.
Posted by Noa on April 10, 2001, at 17:16:19
In reply to Re: ADAM, WOW, I will strongly consider that!, posted by Dubya on April 8, 2001, at 21:24:12
Great topic.
I think as adults we have somewhat better control over our personal boundaries and can therefore protect ourselves from bullies using any of a number of strategies.
But the fact is that bullies do exist, and we may encounter them from time to time. One way to protect ourselves is to fight. One example of fighting is through the legal system; as maligned as attorneys and contingency-based lawsuits might be in the media today, they help to level the playing field and give the victim of bullies a chance to make things right. Another option is to walk away---this is often a very good option, and takes a lot of strength.
But it is equally important to not internalize the bullying psychologically, which some of us do to ourselves, or to absorb the agressive energy from the bully and then pass it on to others, which can be an easy trap to fall into. So, if we walk away from a bully situation, we need to have a way to deal with the hurt and agressive energy, to be conscious of how we process this.
In general, I think it is important to be in touch with what power we do have to protect our selves and our boundaries, and with our personal power, so that we are ready to cope if encountering bullies. But also to be realistic in knowing that we cannot control the behavior of others, and there is some rotten behavior out there in the world.
Posted by Adam on April 11, 2001, at 20:23:12
In reply to Re: ADAM, WOW, I will strongly consider that!, posted by Dubya on April 8, 2001, at 21:24:12
Well, hopefully I'm not cycling. I think the progression was more or less linear, and hopefully I wasn't too much of a bully at one point. I believe now that I developed a false sense of security at one point, after years of never feeling secure, and behaved essentially like other secure people around me, which is pretty sad, when you think about it. I guess the final chapter in the whole process was to just forget about high school and all the B.S. that came with it, being mindful of the fact that for some, high school never quite ends.
Adulthood does seem to bring with it a general progression toward more civil behavior. I do really wonder why some never learn the value of emapthy. A distorted ego may be a factor.
> It's good to hear that you've been out of being bullied. However, you seem to cycle from being an easy target, to a bullier, to sticking up for yourself. Anyways, I hope you understood what I meant by this.
Posted by Noa on April 14, 2001, at 12:37:28
In reply to Re: ADAM, WOW, I will strongly consider that!, posted by Adam on April 11, 2001, at 20:23:12
Identification with the agressor---it is probably pretty common, don't you think?
Posted by Adam on April 14, 2001, at 23:54:17
In reply to Re: ADAM, WOW, I will strongly consider that!, posted by Noa on April 14, 2001, at 12:37:28
> Identification with the agressor---it is probably pretty common, don't you think?
Perhaps, I don't know. I guess, in reviewing my whole recollection of the events at that time, I'm not certain if the typical high school scene is a useful analog for, say, the social hierarchies of the workplace (both those officially imposed, and those that develop more "organically"). If it is, heaven help us all. I'm guessing (hoping?) it's a bit more complicated than that, though.I think the very basic dynamic of bullying is the key to understanding: Why do some people seem to enjoy hurting other people? Why do they almost seem to seek out a vulnerable person or persons, and then systematically abuse them? What does the bully get out of it? Are bullies just the erstwhile bullied who, once empowered, unleash their feelings or self-loathing on others in some kind of replay of the trauma? Perhaps that's what most psycologists, etc., would tell you.
I guess the author of the SciAm article felt that this paradigm, and the means of healing the bully that it informed, are simply erroneous and cause more harm than good. His idea of a real bully was a person with what I can only sum up as a personality disorder, a narcissist who regards him or herself as, put in prosaic terms, better than everyone else. So much better that if you end up on the receiving end of their hostility, you must deserve it. Anyone who challenges this distorted self-image is seen instantly as an infuriating threat, and could be the victim of murderous acts of retribution in extreme circumstances. In this view, bullies are sick, plain and simple. The author didn't buy the line that the way to reform a bully was to bolster his self-esteem. In fact, he felt that the bully was in very bad need of a reality check, one that the bully would very much object to, at least at first: You behave in a deplorable manner. Victimizing other people is very wrong, and your persistant use of agression against those weaker than yourself for self-gratification is a clear indicator that you are not the wonderful person you think you are. In fact, you behave like a terrible person, and if you don't improve, you are not worthy of the trust and frienship of others. Rather, you deserve every punishment you may get for your actions.
So, hows that for radical! Perhaps what I find so fascinating about this hypothesis could be its lack of conformity. What should we think about a theory stating that "bullies", rather than being victims acting out of their own inner pain, are narcissists who enjoy the pain of others? What's more, this tendancy may be fundamental to the individual, who is possibly unregenerate, and certainly not always associated with a childhood of being bullied. What agressor is the "bully" identifying with, then? And if others emulate him or her (as either prior victims or accomplices), are they bullies, or sheep?
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 15, 2001, at 0:09:07
In reply to Re: ADAM, WOW, I will strongly consider that!, posted by Adam on April 14, 2001, at 23:54:17
> What should we think about a theory stating that "bullies", rather than being victims acting out of their own inner pain, are narcissists who enjoy the pain of others?
Are those necessarily mutually exclusive theories? In theory, at least, couldn't inner pain lead to narcissism? At least in some cases?
Bob
Posted by Adam on April 15, 2001, at 9:21:45
In reply to Re: inner pain vs. narcissism, posted by Dr. Bob on April 15, 2001, at 0:09:07
I guess is depends: Are these qualities innate or aquired, or a special mix of both? I don't think the author went into that in any detail. He just felt boosting their (already distorted) self-esteem wasn't necessarily an effective intervention, and saw no clear connexion to victimhood. Unfortunately, I can't find a link, and don't have the issue in front of me, but I'll try to delve into that question. I don't know the answer, but would be interested in what the author's view might be, and perhaps more detailed views are published elsewhere.
>
> Are those necessarily mutually exclusive theories? In theory, at least, couldn't inner pain lead to narcissism? At least in some cases?
>
> Bob
Posted by Janice1 on April 16, 2001, at 17:26:22
In reply to Re: dj - Bullies » Janice1, posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 10:39:32
Hi dj,
Many times I wonder what we are losing by what we are gaining with the cultural over-sanitization. No one (that I know anyway) seems to care though.
You sound (to me) like you are somehow hold yourself responsible for your depression. I realize your approach to depression is a common one. I'm doing wonderfully, and this is why I come so infrequently to PB. On these medications that work, I am more psychologically sound than most people who don't have any mood disorders. Sometimes I wonder if all the years of soul searching and psychology, if not responsible for getting me better, are responsible at least for that.
Sounds like Dubya got some good advice. If bullies exist, I must have learnt to disarm them somehow, or laugh them off. I never met an jacka** I couldn't handle. >
> Hope you are doing well, too.Janice
Hope this isn't too late to get this.
This is the end of the thread.
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