![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pat123 on March 17, 2001, at 13:04:45
The best that could be said of the "it's not everything" school of thought is that the people AROUND the depressed person would probably be a LOT more comfortable to see the depressed person up and about, with renewed "vigor" and determination. Then they (people around the depressed person) do not have to deal with any of the other ick that the depressed person carries inside of him-or-herself.
>
> SharYes, yes, yes. Everybody "thinks" they know about depression. I now shoot from the hip and tell people how it is. I don't leave the house and stop show up at work. I loose my job. I would be homeless if it were not for family money. A "well meaning soul" once tried to "help" me with sugestions of what they do when they are depressed. The walks, sunshine, ect. I had reciently tried to kill myself so I pulled back my
sleeves to show them the sutures on my wrists from a thankfully unsucessful attempt on my life and asked "What do you do when you cut your wrists ?" Quite a shocker. After talking with this person I think they now know what real depression is and that it is nothing like what they have.I have found that real support only comes from those who have seen the great darkness of mental illness. I have a support system of people who know what it is like.
I'll move this to social, seems I have wondered
off of an admin issue.
Pat
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 17, 2001, at 16:37:42
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by pat123 on March 17, 2001, at 13:04:45
> > To me, it's the "do not give in to the Trauma" that's the key. The trauma is not everything.
>
> ......To the sufferer, the Trauma or Depression IS, IN FACT, everything, and if thought or mundane activity could change it so easily, I'm pretty sure none of us would be Traumatized, Depressed, whatever. Were it a Choice (as in taking a drink is a choice), I'm pretty sure very few people would choose it.Sorry, I stand corrected. You're right, some people are incapacitated and cannot just get up out of bed, exercise, clean the house, and brush their teeth. For them, it's not a choice.
However, the idea wasn't that brushing your teeth makes you less depressed, but that brushing your teeth -- if you can -- is part of having a life despite being depressed. The more of a life you can have, the better, right?
BTW, it's controversial, how responsible for their drinking to consider people with alcoholism. One way to look at it is as a symptom of their illness. In which case it's their choice as much as hallucinating is for people with schizophrenia.
Bob
Posted by Shar on March 17, 2001, at 19:02:09
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 17, 2001, at 16:37:42
> However, the idea wasn't that brushing your teeth makes you less depressed, but that brushing your teeth -- if you can -- is part of having a life despite being depressed. The more of a life you can have, the better, right?.......In the broadest and most general interpretation possible, I agree that the more of a life you can have, the better. With respect to depression, I am hesitant to agree. When I am depressed (say halfway between being slightly blue and the deep dark pit of despair), the depression is always with me. It does not abate. I do not get a break from it. There is no relief.
Plus, until quite recently, I had no choice about having a "full" life--I had to work to eat, etc. When I brushed my teeth, I was depressed. When I swept the floor, I was depressed. When I drove to work, I was depressed. When I did the grocery shopping, I was depressed.
So, it does not really matter Too Very Much whether I have "more" of a life or not. If I am depressed, that will be with me no matter what. I suppose there are people who would get some satisfaction out of "depression not getting them down" or "it can't beat me in the game of life" or something. To me, it's a matter of survival with two major goals...not killing myself and remembering my meds.
> BTW, it's controversial, how responsible for their drinking to consider people with alcoholism. One way to look at it is as a symptom of their illness. In which case it's their choice as much as hallucinating is for people with schizophrenia.That is very interesting! I never thought of my alcoholism as something akin to schizophrenia, and had not heard that theory. I will have 14 years sobriety in June, and I have to say the "bottle as Siren" is a strong call for me. It always seemed like a choice not to take that first drink. Hmmm, very interesting.
>
> Sharyn
Posted by pat123 on March 17, 2001, at 19:17:50
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by Dr. Bob on March 17, 2001, at 16:37:42
> However, the idea wasn't that brushing your teeth makes you less depressed, but that brushing your teeth -- if you can -- is part of having a life despite being depressed. The more of a life you can have, the better, right?
For me, I can deal with a significant level of depression and still be involved with my life. It
is an effort but I can force myself. Normal daily interactions that are no effort normally become painful in a nails on chalkboard way. Depression is a part of me so I have developed skills to cope, how ever painful it is, so depression is a part of me but does not define me. However, if the depression becomes more than significant at some point I shut down. I challenge any normie to function with depression so severe.That said, things like work, a routine, and a life are of great benifit to fighting my depression. Esp. with the right job I find work as thearpy. Routine, friends, and work keep my mind occupied so I don't have time to start up
the cognative processes that I have learned are bad for me. Without the meds I cannot stop the negative thoughts that are always there, not matter what I do. CBT and psycothearpy, with excellent doc's at great cost could not make a dent in this issue. Then I started meds, and wham, most of the negative thoughts and cognative
loops I was used to getting stuck in stopped. All the talk thearpy was useful now. If I felt myself slipping the things I learned in thearpy really worked to most pull me up.I have normie bashed here; it is important to remember they really don't know what it is like or what to say or do. I tell my normie friends what they need to do or say, and the feedback I get is that they are more comfortable if I do this. It might go like this:
1) No comments about my lack of grooming, not leaving the house, ect. I know about these things.
2) Be a friend, I have a thearipist.
3) Engage me in normal conversation, esp. about what you are doing. Glimises of normal life are nice.
4) I don't want to hear your helpful ideas about things I could do to be less depressed.
5) If I want to talk about the depression, meds, or threary I will bring it up; I just need you to listen.
6) If you are able to run to the store, take a kitty to the vet, ect this is great. It really helps if you take the lead in offering to do this
because I will not ask.
7) Most important is I need you to listen and be a friend. No big heroics needed.This is why this board is so great. I value my friends who know first hand what mental illness is like.
Pat
Posted by pat123 on March 17, 2001, at 19:26:21
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Shar on March 17, 2001, at 19:02:09
That is very interesting! I never thought of my alcoholism as something akin to schizophrenia, and had not heard that theory. I will have 14 years sobriety in June, and I have to say the "bottle as Siren" is a strong call for me. It always seemed like a choice not to take that first drink. Hmmm, very interesting.
There is growing evidence that alcohol effects alcoholics differently. Amoung my secondary school
mates I remember one who progressed to always being passed out from just having one drink in the space on 2 months.The alcoholics I have talked to report a high I have never gotten off of alcohol.
Pat
Posted by allisonm on March 17, 2001, at 21:20:47
In reply to Re: What DOES one do? » Dr. Bob, posted by Shar on March 17, 2001, at 19:02:09
> > BTW, it's controversial, how responsible for their drinking to consider people with alcoholism. One way to look at it is as a symptom of their illness. In which case it's their choice as much as hallucinating is for people with schizophrenia.
>
> That is very interesting! I never thought of my alcoholism as something akin to schizophrenia, and had not heard that theory. I will have 14 years sobriety in June, and I have to say the "bottle as Siren" is a strong call for me. It always seemed like a choice not to take that first drink. Hmmm, very interesting.< <No doubt we could talk on this subject for eons. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that my mother simply could not stop drinking no matter how hard she tried or wanted to stop... kind of akin to schizophrenic hallucinations now that you mention it, Bob. I do view alcoholism as an illness. In my mother's case, it was terminal.
Posted by Adam on March 17, 2001, at 23:11:26
In reply to Re: What DOES one do?, posted by allisonm on March 17, 2001, at 21:20:47
I can't speak for Dr. Bob, but my impression of this analogy is that it was meant to be a very loose one, and no parallel other than helplessness should be drawn.
I have a number of relatives (my maternal grandfather, most saliently) who were/are addicted to alcohol. My granfather, as far as I can tell, is inebriated 100% of the time, and sometimes drinks himself into unconsciousness. When I was little, the characteristic odor that he exuded just was "his smell". As I got older, I realized the man was half pickled at this point, and the fact that he is still alive today is a source of considerable amazement.
Interestingly, I'm not sure anyone has seriously pushed him toward sobriety. I guess that when he goes without a drink for too long, he becomes monstrous. I feel a bit monstrous for harboring such sentiments, but, since being sober doesn't appear to work for him, I sometimes wish he would just die and get it over with. He'll never quit, can't seem to function without booze anyway, and only barely functions now as it is. I can scarcely bring myself to visit him anymore at Christmas, and must confess I've gone a couple Holidays without even making the effort. It's simply a horrible thing. I do believe he is helpless: His one comfort and stabilizing influence in life has utterly ruined him, and he has nothing left to do but to drink and expire. However, without the alcohol, I think he would be capable of murder. He is a monster, and a sad, sick, lonely, pathetic man all at once. He has simultaneously a heart of gold and the blind rage of a killer, and is beyond my comprehension or my ability to reach out to. He must be accepted as he is, or abandoned. There is no hope for change, not anymore.
I once met a schizophrenic man who was given to some rather elaborate and incomprehensible fantasies or delusions, as well as some pretty violent and foulmouthed outbursts at seemingly no provocation who, after some heavy ECT and perhaps even heavier doses of neuroleptics, appeared (though he spoke at about half the pace of the average conversationalist at that point, and didn't change the tone of his voice all that much) much more aware of reality, much more subdued, happier, and perhaps maybe even capable of functioning outside of a hospital, on his own. Simon. I liked him.
Different as apples and antelopes.
> > > BTW, it's controversial, how responsible for their drinking to consider people with alcoholism. One way to look at it is as a symptom of their illness. In which case it's their choice as much as hallucinating is for people with schizophrenia.
> >
> > That is very interesting! I never thought of my alcoholism as something akin to schizophrenia, and had not heard that theory. I will have 14 years sobriety in June, and I have to say the "bottle as Siren" is a strong call for me. It always seemed like a choice not to take that first drink. Hmmm, very interesting.< <
>
> No doubt we could talk on this subject for eons. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that my mother simply could not stop drinking no matter how hard she tried or wanted to stop... kind of akin to schizophrenic hallucinations now that you mention it, Bob. I do view alcoholism as an illness. In my mother's case, it was terminal.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.