![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by dj on February 3, 2001, at 23:30:41
In reply to uh..no dj..., posted by phil15 on February 3, 2001, at 19:54:40
I am not saying we live in a perfect or just society Phill5. I am saying that those who choose to not excessively dwell on the imperfections in our society are probably healthy overall than those who do obsess and isolate because the world does not meet their standards. Truly healthy people attempt to make positive changes in it, within the scope of their abilities.
There are drones in all segments of society and probably more fo them are depressed than not I figure. Evil is evil and dwelling excessively on the evils in our world is not healthy or useful unless you are going to do something about it, besides making negative judgments of those you think you are superior to... Doing something about true evils is healthy...or just moving on to healthier foci.
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 7:52:08
In reply to Re: uh..no dj... » phil15, posted by dj on February 3, 2001, at 23:30:41
> I am not saying we live in a perfect or just society Phill5. I am saying that those who choose to not excessively dwell on the imperfections in our society are probably healthy overall than those who do obsess and isolate because the world does not meet their standards. Truly healthy people attempt to make positive changes in it, within the scope of their abilities.
>
> There are drones in all segments of society and probably more fo them are depressed than not I figure. Evil is evil and dwelling excessively on the evils in our world is not healthy or useful unless you are going to do something about it, besides making negative judgments of those you think you are superior to... Doing something about true evils is healthy...or just moving on to healthier foci.
-------
For me, it's not a matter of feeling superior or the world not meeting my standards. It's more a matter of feeling that I wasn't made right, I wasn't made for this world, I don't fit in. For whatever reason I don't share the same interests as many other people, so I keep to myself. I have spent a lot of time alone, especially as a child. I always have been introverted. The thing about drones that I have puzzled about is how they can live their lives in this way, which appears so very normal -- whatever that is. How do they do it? How did I get on this other path? I marvel at their contentment because I don't have it.
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:10:12
In reply to Wounded Healers, posted by Todd on February 3, 2001, at 22:14:22
Todd,
Thanks. That was beautifully said. I agree completely.
As I said in my post replying to dj, it's not so much a feeling of superiority over drones and the rest of society as a feeling that I don't fit in this world, that I wasn't made right.
I have one question: If I may play devil's advocate for a moment, can you clarify or reconcile your 2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraphs on the drone theory with your opening paragraph about feeling superior and negative energy. Does your own opinion of drones make you feel superior?
Phil, Todd, dj, where do theory and belief end and feelings of superiority begin?
Thanks and peace,
Allison
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:42:54
In reply to drones and non drones, posted by Phil15 on February 2, 2001, at 20:58:20
Is ambition and/or envy a part of being a drone?
Is learning that you cannot (for whatever reason) compete in the realm of drones part of not being one and then does this lead to defining them in the ways that we have in this thread?
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 8:43:48
In reply to Re: uh..no dj..., posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 7:52:08
> For me, it's not a matter of feeling superior or the world not meeting my standards. It's more a matter of feeling that I wasn't made right, I wasn't made for this world, I don't fit in. For whatever reason I don't share the same interests as many other people, so I keep to myself. I have spent a lot of time alone, especially as a child. I always have been introverted. The thing about drones that I have puzzled about is how they can live their lives in this way, which appears so very normal -- whatever that is. How do they do it? How did I get on this other path? I marvel at >their contentment because I don't have it.
Alison,
This I can relate to, though I wish I did not and parts of what Phil and Todd wrote I can also relate to, though I also wish I did not.
The use of the word drone to characterize those who are content and seemingly non-questioning is what I believe to be a negative judgment that I don't think is appropriate. Contentment is a state to seek, rather than condemn, I believe, and I consider it to be a superior state to relentless questioning and obsessing as it seems to be from where more happiness springs.
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 8:57:25
In reply to another question, OK two or three, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:42:54
> Is ambition and/or envy a part of being a >drone?
I'll leave it up to others to debate that as I don't agree with the concept, as stated. Here, for instance, is a story from a paper today about folks that I assume Phill5 would define as drones, and how they dealt with some pretty tough circumstances. I don't think I would adjust as well, at this point, though I may have more so in the past.
"The power of friendship
As his body begins to fail him, pals lend him strength Damian Inwood The Province
NANAIMO -- All his life, casino pit boss Freddie Wilson has been a popular, happy-go-lucky winner.Playing baseball and hockey, entering sand-castle competitions, going fishing or swimming in the Nanaimo River, Wilson has always had a great time.
But then the friendly, 36-year-old family man was dealt a losing hand in the shape of the incurable Lou Gehrig's disease.
Tonight, Nanaimo is rallying around him, with the first of two Friends of Freddie benefits to raise money to help Wilson, wife Shannon and three young kids.
"I just don't know where to begin to thank people," says Wilson, who now walks with a cane. "I found out I had the disease in late November. I was feeling a little shaky -- mostly weak in my legs and losing strength in my arms."
Wilson's closest friend, Kevin Haslam, decided to do something to help the buddy he's known for more than 20 years.
"I was crushed when I found out," says Haslam, 31, who also works at the Great Canadian Casino. "It's tragic, him being such a nice guy. But you don't have any choice in the matter -- you are dealt the cards and you have to play the hand."
Tonight, more than 200 people will gather at Cavallotti Hall for a dinner and auction to raise money.
"The town has really got behind it," adds Haslam. "We've been canvassing for donations for our auction and we've been overwhelmed by how much stuff we've been receiving."
Haslam is now setting up a trust fund through a Nanaimo credit union.
"We hope to raise between $10,000 and $15,000, mostly for his wife and kids. They don't have much.
"Ideally, we would like to see him get a down payment on a house so he'll know his wife and kids will have a roof over their heads."
On March 4, at the Queen's Hotel in downtown Nanai-mo, another friend, Robert Ashton, is organizing an eight-band benefit.
"I've known him for at least 10 years," says Ashton, who works security at both the casino and the pub. "It was hard to believe and everybody was really upset. The main reason I am doing this for Freddie is that I know he would do the same for me."
Two of the Nanaimo musicians donating their time got together with Wilson last week at the hotel's pub.
David Gogo, the blues guitarist voted Musician of the Year 2000 at the West Coast Music Awards, will bring his band to play at the benefit.
"I have known Fred for 10 or 12 years. He's a hardline Montreal Canadiens hockey fan, as am I," Gogo says. "When I had my first band, he and Shannon came to Alberta to see us play a couple of times. He's a real solid guy. It's a shitty thing to happen."
Another friend is Billy Hicks, drummer and "ringmaster" for the band Wunderbread.
"Nanaimo is a strong, tight-knit community," Hicks says. "It's going to be a good evening."
Haslam calls his friend an outgoing, friendly man who has no enemies -- and a great baseball player who suddenly found himself unable to get around:
"We all thought his knee was a sports injury until November." That's when Wilson learned he had Lou Gehrig's disease.
Wilson loves the Habs team so much he named his son, who's now three, Dryden. "I ran the name past my wife and she liked it," Wilson grins.
Completing the family are eight-month-old twin daughters Rachael and Bryanna.
"We have our up days and our down days," Wilson chuckles. "The twins are crawling -- they are just getting forward gear. Dryden goes hell-bent for leather. He has two speeds -- stop and fast."
THE DISEASE
Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) is known as "Lou Gehrig's disease" after star New York Yankees baseball player who died of it in 1941.
It's a progressive, degenerative disease that attacks nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord. Patients eventually become totally paralyzed but their minds usually remain unaffected.
Renowned scientist Dr. Stephen Hawking has suffered the disease for more than 30 years."
Is Hawking a drone, as so defined above??
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:57:34
In reply to Re: uh..huh... » allisonm, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 8:43:48
Drone wasn't my word. I agree it can connote a negative image, sometimes deserved and other times not at all.
Some people seem to me to be living in the wrong direction for the wrong reasons (wealth, keeping up with the Joneses, etc.), with an uncharitable attitude toward others, who wear blinders so that they cannot see the rest of their world.
There are other people who don't go that path, who are quite normal, simple and happy. They don't have any intention of climbing the highest mountain, of making the most money, of putting others down. They just live life the way they were taught without questioning it because that's the way it should be and has always been. Certainly there are other kinds of people, but this is what I picture when I think of "drones." I find I fit with neither group.
I am happy to use an alternative word without negative connotations. Suggestions?
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 9:00:55
In reply to Re: uh..huh... » dj, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:57:34
> I am happy to use an alternative word without > negative connotations. Suggestions?
strivers, the status quo, the disaffected vs the dissatisfied or something along those lines perhaps?
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 9:05:04
In reply to Re: another question, OK two or three, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 8:57:25
> Is Hawking a drone, as so defined above??
>
No. And I don't think the above story a definition that is necessarily that of a "drone."
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 9:08:28
In reply to Re: uh..huh... » allisonm, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 9:00:55
I think the status quo would work.
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 9:09:37
In reply to Re: another question, OK two or three, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 9:05:04
> > Is Hawking a drone, as so defined above??
> >
> No. And I don't think the above story a >definition that is necessarily that of a "drone."Who would you describe as a drone, given the above theory - Donald Trump, his ex-wife, Bill Clinton, Hilary or ???
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 9:40:08
In reply to Re: another question, OK two or three, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 9:09:37
I don't know Donald Trump, Marla Maples, or Bill and Hillary.
Of the people I do know, I would consider my father's sister and her husband and their two daughters; my best friend's brother and sister-in-law; my good friend and college roommate; a man I supervise; and my next-door neighbor representational of the status quo. With the exception of my aunt, uncle and two cousins, I have nothing against these people and most I like very much. They just live and think differently than I do.
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 12:50:24
In reply to Re: uh..no dj... » phil15, posted by dj on February 3, 2001, at 23:30:41
in response to the below, i definatly agree with you there. I think i would rather not be getting into these things but u gotta admit it is interesting to discuss. Anyway i do want to change the surrounding in a positive way, but first i need peoples input like yours as constructive critisism, u know... No one person has all the answers because each person has a unique outlook on life.
I am not saying we live in a perfect or just society Phill5. I am saying that those who choose to not excessively dwell on the imperfections in our society are probably healthy overall than those who do obsess and isolate because the world does not meet their standards. Truly healthy people attempt to make positive changes in it, within the scope of their abilities.
There are drones in all segments of society and probably more fo them are depressed than not I figure. Evil is evil and dwelling excessively on the evils in our world is not healthy or useful unless you are going to do something about it, besides making negative judgments of those you think you are superior to... Doing something about true evils is healthy...or just moving on to healthier foci.
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 13:10:20
In reply to i agree dj..., posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 12:50:24
> ... i do want to change the surrounding in a positive way, but first i need peoples input like yours as constructive critisism, u know... No one person has all the answers because each person >has a unique outlook on life.
Discussion and airing and refining of insights and outlooks is a good place to start and evolve from Phill5. Good luck on your journey of engagement and positive change, on whichever path you choose.
Here's an interesting quote to ponder from the book "Ambition, the Secret Passion" by Joseph Epstein: "We do not choose to be born. We do not choose our parents. We do not choose our historical epoch, or the country of our birth, or the immediate circumstances of our upbringing. < though some would aruge that > We do not, most of us, choose to die: nor do we choose the time or conditions of our death. But within all this realm of choicelessness, we do choose how we shall live: courageously or in cowardice, honorably or dishonorably, with purpose or in drift. We decide what is important and trivial in our life. We decide that what makes us significant is either what we do or what we refuse to do. But no matter how indifferent the universe may be to our choices and decisions, these choices and decisions are ours to make. We decide. We choose. And as we decide and choose so our lives are formed. In the end, forming our own identity is what ambition is all about."
Posted by Todd on February 4, 2001, at 13:22:58
In reply to Re: Wounded Healers, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:10:12
Hi, Allison. Sure, you can play devil's advocate. We all need to challenge each other that way. Does my own opinion of drones make me feel superior? To be honest, yeah, sometimes. We all lead our lives searching for wisdom, searching for the knowledge that will allow ourselves to live our lives with fulfillment and content. When we arrive at basic truths that seem to us to be so self-evident, and they fail to be perceived as such by "drones," it's very easy to slip into that feeling of superiority, that feeling that we "know better" and therefore "are better." Which, of course, is illusory. Any feeling of superiority we might feel over anyone else, although immediately gratifying, is always illusory, and always fades. Because it just ain't the truth. After all, we are all the same. The minute we try to convince ourselves otherwise for whatever reason is the minute we have made ourselves an island and increase pain in our lives. It's the illusion that we are all separate that I believe contributes most to the pain and suffering that we all feel.
Let's stop using the word "drone" here. Reading all of these posts is starting to drive me crazy. They are starting to read like this: "drone blah blah drone ba drone drone blahbah drone." The terms "drone" and "non-drone" are useful for the sake of discussions like these, but when we start to overuse the terms we are losing sight of reality again. The reality that we are all human, that we all hurt, and that we all deserve to lead lives of fulfillment. If we start standing on a saltbox with a "drone" and point out their "droneness" and keep them in their "drone" state because we so desperately want to be a "non-drone," guess what we have become? Yikes, yep, you got it - A DRONE! That's pretty scary stuff. We all play both parts at different times, and it's all perfectly human.
I guess what I am saying is that if we want to affect positive change, we have to be try to patient and humble. Neither of which I am very good at. But I get more patient and more humble reminding myself constantly that we are all the same. No matter how much you may disagree with someone's negative viewpoint, the minute we come off as being superior is the minute we turn the other person off, and the illusion of separateness and pain continues.
I hope that clarifies your questions about reconciling all of my paragraphs. Now what about this feeling of "not fitting" in this world, Allison? You sound like a beautiful, thoughtful person. What makes you feel that the world would be indifferent in your absence? We NEED you to shine your light. I am sure you try to shine it as much as you can, and I am willing to bet that you touch more lives than you imagine. For every person who posts to this board, I would bet there are 5 who are just here to read. Speak your truths. We all need to hear them so we can help each other to heal. Peace and love.
Todd
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:24:17
In reply to Re: Wounded Healers » allisonm, posted by Todd on February 4, 2001, at 13:22:58
I remember a while ago when my friend mike and I first discovered that there were drones and non-drones, we definatly abused the words drone and non drone to make ourselves feel superior. At school if someone was acting "dronish" we'd be like "yep, hes a drone!" or if someone annoyed us we'de use it as like "Oh your just a drone so u have no importance anyway". It was really great... for like a month. Then we got more people involved in the thing and some of our "dronish" friends starting disliking us. And losing friends is not worth making yourself feel superior.
I still sometimes will classify people as drones in the back of my head at times, but i definatly don't express it. Because that would be working against a happier place that needs to be achieved. As one of you said, i can't remember who, that we shouldn't seperate ourselfs from these drones like i did, but we should "enlighten" them. A drone isn't a drone forever. A person can always change their lifestyle and outlook in life as in "dj's" quote said.
Anyway, they are out there, but they are neither superior nor inferior. They might have more fun or get alot accompished, and many other qualities that they do have, which is a good + thing. But then again, the non drones have their positive in questioning and deeply thinking about things, etc.
The only thing that i was arguing about the drones with, is that they tend to achieve a "superior social status". But really that isn't really important and nondrones should be happy with themselves too, even is some of them are not "socially with it".
I guess the reason i posted this here in the first place was to show other "nondrones" that there are MANY others like themselves, and that we should feel free to express our feelings and ideas.
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:40:02
In reply to Re: uh..huh... » dj, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:57:34
I remember when i was littler, time seemed endles and i never stopped to think about the world. I lived in the moment. I must say that these were my most happy times in my life.
For that reason i want to make it clear that when i say drone, i dont mean it at all negatively. It is a blessing to be like that in a way. In religion they have much more faith than people like me because i tend to sit there and think, hmmm...how can this be? Doesn't that contradict this? But why? etc...
Its just that we shouldn't be thinking of ourselves negatively. We have our gifts also. AlisonM portraid a perfect accountment of like what its like to not be a drone, and it can seem lonely. But you aren't alone, there many others like you but you just don't notice it cause most of us are shy and seperate ourselves from others. And that was my main reason for posting this stuff. Even if you are to think im a weirdo or something, at least then you can think, hey there is someone that has strange ideas even more so than mine. And you hopefully will realize ur not alone.
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:45:53
In reply to Re: uh..huh... » allisonm, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 9:00:55
I understand that you don't want to be using a negative word such as drone, but lets not use one that lowers ourselves. I mean ok we could say, they are "normal" and we are "weird". But thats just as negative because it lowering ourselves. And really, if there are so many of us, are we really weird? Ok, i have a good one that ive heard used before though. They are do'ers and we are thinkers. Although we do stuff too, we are set aback from doing to much because we think alot also.
> > I am happy to use an alternative word without > negative connotations. Suggestions?
>
> strivers, the status quo, the disaffected vs the dissatisfied or something along those lines perhaps?
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:48:10
In reply to Re: another question, OK two or three, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 9:05:04
I really i think that if we use the terms doers and thinkers, it is VERY obvious that Hawkings is a thinker.
Posted by Todd on February 4, 2001, at 15:10:06
In reply to liked being a drone, posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:40:02
Don't ever stop being who you are, Phil. Anyone who calls another a weirdo is denying their own self the pleasure of their own uniqueness. All of your thinking about religion is great. More people need to do question their own beliefs. There is a big difference between religion and spirituality. And I don't use the term spirituality as some lofty-minded phrase, either. After all, we are ALL spirits. Spirits in a body that long to be able to express their beauty freely. THAT'S what true spirituality is all about. Not up there in the clouds or even above our heads, but right in HERE, right NOW. Spirituality, man. Letting our spirits FLOW. How about that?
I believe that any religion that teaches a distrust and loathing of our dark side, that pretends to be all about good while condemning our shortcomings is not a productive one at all. It is a religion that thrives on fear and plugs up the true human condition. Get rid of all the bad shit, cause it's BAD. You already know that there's something hypocritical and wrong with that idea. You're further along in understanding life than the people who march off to church every week because they feel they "have to," those same people who try to do all the right things that somebody else has told them to do, lest they burn in hell for eternity. There's so much less and so much more to it than that, I believe. I think it all boils down to knowing yourself intimately and allowing yourself to be yourself, along with all that's perfect and all that's not-so-perfect. Shine on, man.
Peace and love.Todd
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 15:17:02
In reply to hawkiings, posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:48:10
> I really i think that if we use the terms doers and thinkers, it is VERY obvious that Hawkings is >a thinker.
Hawkings is a thinker who is also a doer as are many folks...depressed and not... Effectiveness would seem to lie in a balance of both.
Obsessing is not thinking and thinking is not obsessing. Anyway, enough droning on about this...
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 16:13:57
In reply to Re: hawkiings » phil15, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 15:17:02
Now that i think we have all worn this topic of discussion to its end, I want to thank all of you for your comments, arguements, and suggestions. You all have good ideas even though some of our ideas may not agree each others. After hearing from you people I don't even agree with my original theories and that if i type out any new theories like my others, they will now be much different...
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 17:10:18
In reply to thanks, posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 16:13:57
Thanks from me too to all for such an interesting discussion.
Todd, you are a very kind human being.
Sincerely,
Allison
Posted by shar on February 5, 2001, at 0:56:22
In reply to Re: uh..huh...-suggestion: doersthinkers..., posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:45:53
There have been periods in my life that were quite dronesque. Usually those were the times when reality, life circumstances, supporting myself and child, made it sensible to have a straight job, live in the best apt. I could afford, drive a regular old car, put food on the table, and, all in all, be very "normal" in order to provide as decent a life as possible for me and my son.
Of course, I was suicidal most of the time. But, go to that 8-5 job I did. Find quality daycare I did. Try to be a good mom I did.
Being a good mom--wow, that is very dronesque. I felt an obligation to teach my son to get along in the mainstream (be a drone?), and tried to convey the importance of honesty and integrity in the world, and tried to encourage him to follow what dreams he could. In other words, fill his tool box with some tools and options for getting along in the world.
I think it would have been a great disservice to have not taught my son what to do in the real world (whether he chose it was another issue). It's right outside the door, and it's harder when you are not equipped to deal with it.
So, while people may have about them the trappings of droneage, it does not necessarily mean they are drones, or normals, or thinkers, or doers. It is very difficult to come to conclusions about others based on external cues. I believe every person thinks to the extent that they can. Some people will work to stretch that, and want to grow in thought. Some people will stretch and grow in other important ways.
None of us knows what kind of toolkit anyone has. And, thinking/philosophizing is not the sine qua non of existence. It is but one of many very important things one can do in life.
Weird--always have been, always will be.
Shar
Posted by dj on February 5, 2001, at 8:32:38
In reply to And then there is life...., posted by shar on February 5, 2001, at 0:56:22
> There have been periods in my life that were quite dronesque. Usually those were the times when reality, life circumstances, supporting myself and child, made it sensible to have a straight job, live in the best apt. I could afford, drive a regular old car, put food on the table, and, all in all, be very "normal" in order to provide as decent a life as possible for me and my son.
>
> Of course, I was suicidal most of the time. But, go to that 8-5 job I did. Find quality daycare I did. Try to be a good mom I did.
>
> Being a good mom--wow, that is very dronesque. I felt an obligation to teach my son to get along in the mainstream (be a drone?), and tried to convey the importance of honesty and integrity in the world, and tried to encourage him to follow what dreams he could. In other words, fill his tool box with some tools and options for getting along in the world.
>
> I think it would have been a great disservice to have not taught my son what to do in the real world (whether he chose it was another issue). It's right outside the door, and it's harder when you are not equipped to deal with it.
>
> So, while people may have about them the trappings of droneage, it does not necessarily mean they are drones, or normals, or thinkers, or doers. It is very difficult to come to conclusions about others based on external cues. I believe every person thinks to the extent that they can. Some people will work to stretch that, and want to grow in thought. Some people will stretch and grow in other important ways.
>
> None of us knows what kind of toolkit anyone has. And, thinking/philosophizing is not the sine qua non of existence. It is but one of many very important things one can do in life.
>
> Weird--always have been, always will be.
> Shar
This is the end of the thread.
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