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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pegasus on December 14, 2011, at 12:11:20
Yesterday I had a session that has really thrown me for a loop, and I'm trying to figure out how to process it. I've lately been moving a bit out of my usual place where I'm always guarded and afraid my T is going to hurt me, and trying to stretch a little in letting him get to know me more, and asking him more about himself. I was asking him questions about himself yesterday, and at one point he mentioned in passing that he and his wife had both had some difficult times, and so they try to keep their lives pretty calm. I asked him what kind of difficult times, and he asked me whether I really wanted to hear. I said yes. So, he told me this horrible story about a traumatic death of someone very close to him many years ago.
Maybe it was too much for me to process or something, but my reaction is not making sense to me. In the session, I started shutting down. I think I was dissociating in some way. I felt really depressed, and isolated, and disconnected from the conversation, but working really hard to try to stay present and figure out something to say. I don't think I said much. I remember making a big effort to say the appropriate things like, "How awful. I'm so sorry. Thank you for telling me." Etc. I remember wanting to get the hell out of there, but feeling bad about that.
Afterwards, I felt like crap. My habitual self loathing was turned up to high. And I was also kind of distant from that, observing it, from within a depressed fog. I kept ruminating about certain aspects of the story, going over and over what was said in a non-productive way. A couple of parts of it seem particularly awful, from what I imagine to be my T's point of view. And I kind of got stuck going over and over those, along with the first words he said about the whole incident. I wasn't very functional again until sometime this morning.
Coincidentally, I'm recovering from an injury that is pretty painful and limits my mobility. So, the two things, the physical pain, and the mental fog/upset, feel intertwined somehow. I don't get how they should be, though.
Any ideas how to deal with or interpret this? It's like the reaction I often have when *I* reveal something scary. Although I don't have anything this horrible in my past. So, why am I doing this when it's my T's thing, not mine?
Times like this, I feel really broken. Why can't I just have empathy for him, and still be able to go along with life? Instead of getting totally derailed?
Peg
Posted by Daisym on December 14, 2011, at 14:57:19
In reply to Maybe TMI from T?, posted by pegasus on December 14, 2011, at 12:11:20
I have two thoughts.
One is that you were experiencing all the physical symptoms of shock - which given your injured state makes sense - you had less defenses against the pictures your brain produced.But my other thought, and this could just be me, is that his event created a real role reversal for you and you really weren't prepared for that. Just like a child can get overwhelmed when a parent gives out too much information, your therapist did that with you, although by no means on purpose. Most of the time when you reveal something awful about yourself, he is prepared to help you handle it - he offers mutual regulation to process the memory. By exploring his own memory, without his support to process it, you were left in a position that felt frightening - so your brain shut off. Because what was the correct response? How were you suppose to help him? He isn't going to allow you to comfort him, at least not much, nor is this your usual position with him.
IMO, he should have had better judgement than to share something so potentially fraught with peril. But it also might be a good time to look at your expectations of yourself and what you think people want/need from you - Is your fall back response to take it on, as if you have to make the other person not feel the pain of an event?
I'm sorry you were so rattled. Weird stuff gets us in weird ways. My therapist just got a new car. He didn't tell me but I know it is his because I see him in two different offices - same new car in both places - not a coincidence. It throws me when I see his "real" life in such a concrete way - in which I'm no part of. And yet I don't really get my reaction to it all.
Will you tell him about your reaction? I imagine that would be hard.
Posted by emmanuel98 on December 14, 2011, at 21:13:56
In reply to Maybe TMI from T?, posted by pegasus on December 14, 2011, at 12:11:20
I guess there can be too much self-disclosure. My p-doc discloses very little about himself. Once he was in a chatty mood and mentioned something about a joke his wife made and I asked him what his wife did. She's a teacher, he said. What does she teach? That's enough questions he responded. I find we can talk about neutral topics like books he is reading, but personal info he is very reluctant to share. He says he doesn't want me to know so much about him that I feel I need to take care of him.
Posted by pegasus on December 15, 2011, at 8:10:16
In reply to Re: Maybe TMI from T?, posted by Daisym on December 14, 2011, at 14:57:19
Thanks, Daisy, for your insights. They're really helpful, as usual.
I am not sure yet how I feel about whether this was too much sharing, in general. A lot of the work I've been doing lately is around figuring out how to trust him. I know I would have a hard time trusting someone who *wouldn't* share things about himself. In fact, I've ditched Ts for that in the past. And yet, I wasn't prepared for this. So, maybe the sharing is good, but I needed more help with it, or preparation for it, or something. I agree that I seemed to have a shock reaction.
He said that he had thought quite a bit about whether to share this with me. I'm interested to know why he decided to do it. It seemed rather planned. I'm sure he guessed that I'd ask questions, if he mentioned having had difficult times.
I think I will try to discuss my reaction with him. I'm thinking that I might be able to take in my post and read it to him. I may also read your response, because I'd like to hear what he'd say about it.
One thing I do trust about him is that he can take that kind of conversation without getting defensive.
- P
Posted by pegasus on December 15, 2011, at 8:13:34
In reply to Re: Maybe TMI from T?, posted by emmanuel98 on December 14, 2011, at 21:13:56
I'm still not sure that this is too much self disclosure for me. In the moment, yes, but now that I'm recovering from the shock, I think I might appreciate knowing this about him. And I think I appreciate that he was willing to share it with me.
Wow, I would totally not get along with a T that wouldn't let me ask questions about him. I think maybe that's part of why I picked this T. I get that it can be valuable not to know personal things. I had a T once that I chose not to ever ask any questions about her life. That is definitely what I needed at the time. But if it wasn't *my* choice, I think that would be an obstacle for me. Which is an interesting thing to ponder. I wonder why I feel so strongly about that. I know it's tangled up in my profound trust issues.
- p
Posted by pegasus on December 15, 2011, at 13:48:20
In reply to Maybe TMI from T?, posted by pegasus on December 14, 2011, at 12:11:20
I just realized that part of the problem is that the conversation I need to have with him now is about my reaction to what he told me. But that breaks the normal rules of social discourse. To talk about my reaction, I have to make this conversation about me. When normally the attention should be focused on him. It seems so unaccepatably self-centered to talk about *my* reaction. But if I don't, then that goes against what I'm supposed to be there for.
This is related to the role reversal that Daisy mentioned, although I think it's also more than that. I'm in a position of needing to break a more general social rule, in order to make this good therapy and not just a disclosure error. I'm going to need a lot of his help with this one.
Also, I find that I want to ask all kinds of inappropriate questions. I want to know if the things that seem to me like they would be the hardest to deal with are actually what he found to be hardest to deal with. But that's definitely not OK, so I'll just have to wonder.
- p
Posted by Dinah on December 18, 2011, at 11:16:19
In reply to Re: Maybe TMI from T?, posted by pegasus on December 15, 2011, at 13:48:20
It sounds as if your therapist had given some thought to the disclosure before making it. Do you know why he chose this particular disclosure?
I think the discussion after is the most important part. My therapist has had moments of overdisclosure. It's a hard line for him to draw because I sense when something's wrong, and he knows it makes me crazy to worry without knowing. We've talked about the fact that I don't generally react as a friend would react. I act as a dependent child would react. I'm afraid that he won't be the rock I need. I don't like to feel like I need to be a support to him. I choose to remember that therapy is about me, not about him, and choose to allow myself to react as a therapy client.
I do think disclosure can be good sometimes, outside of the strictest analytic settings. We can build such images in our mind on a foundation of the things we see but don't fully understand. It's helped me immensely with the degree of my attachment and (admittedly) obsession to recognize that fundamentally he's just a struggling human being who doesn't have all the answers. That the power of therapy doesn't really come from his enormous strength and wisdom. It comes from the fact that he able to be with me and experience with me, while maintaining the therapeutic objectivity that allows him to remain separate enough to help.
That can be compromised by too much sharing, though. My therapist and I have both maintained boundaries on that, and I'm as vigilant (if not moreso) than he is.
My gut feeling, based on my own experience, is that if you feel like you need to ask if it's TMI, it's not unlikely that it *is* TMI. What's important, though, is where you go from now. The conversations about this could be very helpful to you in your therapeutic growth and healing.
Posted by pegasus on December 20, 2011, at 9:59:51
In reply to Re: Maybe TMI from T? » pegasus, posted by Dinah on December 18, 2011, at 11:16:19
Yeah, that's the question, isn't it? Why did he tell me this?
I see him again tomorrow, and I'm going to try to cover these aspects of the situation:
1. This situation puts me in a bind where I feel like there is no appropriate response I can give. I either keep my reaction from him, or I feel like I'm making this discussion of his tragedy all about me. We need to negotiate something more workable from that.
2. Explain what my immediate reaction was (dissociation/shock followed by depression)
3. What was his thinking around deciding to
tell me all of this?I'll let you guys know how it goes. I appreciate your help. I would have exploded if I hadn't had someone to talk this through with.
- p
Posted by pegasus on December 22, 2011, at 10:39:30
In reply to Maybe TMI from T?, posted by pegasus on December 14, 2011, at 12:11:20
It was a good session. These kinds of difficult sessions do tend to lead to good ones, with a good T. First we talked about how hard it is for me to have an honest discussion with him about my reactions to his tragedy. We covered all of the expected territory, about how the reason we're there is to help me, he really wanted me to tell him, etc.
So, when I felt like I had sufficient permission, I told him. It seemed good to talk about it. He was all excited that I was willing to tell him all of this stuff. It felt uncomfortable, though, to have someone all excited about a conversation that was so painful for me.
We talked about why he told me this stuff in the first place, but now I can't reconstruct his argument. I remember that he said he thought about it before he did it, and he knew he was taking a risk. And he worried all weekend that he had made a mistake.
At this point, I think maybe he told me too much too soon, and it did tip me into a painful reaction that took up a lot of my week. So, I guess that was a mistake. Maybe my reaction was worse because I was in physical pain myself, and so had less resources for dealing. But I also feel closer to him now, and that's a really good thing. I told him he was important to me and I cared about him and it hurt my heart to hear about such a horrible thing in his life. And he told me that I was important to him, and he has cared about me for a long time, and my sympathetic reaction makes him feel very cared about. I tried so hard to take that in. It got further in that usual, but I'm still holding it at a distance.
I'm supposed to consider what we talked about regarding how/why my reaction developed the way it did. But I can't remember the summary of that now. I'll try to remember, or reconstruct it. He said that, knowing what he knows about my past, he can completely understand how I could end up reacting the way I did, and he can almost feel my reaction himself. I said I don't want him to have to feel it, but he said that he finds it gratifying to empathize with someone that way.
So. That's where we are now. Pretty good place, I think. Very workable.
- P
Posted by annierose on December 23, 2011, at 10:33:45
In reply to update, posted by pegasus on December 22, 2011, at 10:39:30
So glad you found that settled place of acknowledged feelings and understanding. You are right. A skilled and loving therapist can get you there like no other.
And what a wonderful gift you received prior to the holidays.
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2011, at 12:23:16
In reply to update, posted by pegasus on December 22, 2011, at 10:39:30
I'm glad you came to a good place with him. :)
I suppose I may be vaguely troubled that his emphasis on your response was on him. That it felt good to be cared about. Was there a reason based on *your* benefit that he shared this with you? Did he think it would further *your* therapy? Did he give you permission to be selfish and unreasonable about things he discloses, should they ever make you feel that way?
As I said, my therapist sometimes tells me more than I need to know. The main reason is that I can generally tell when something's wrong with him, and he's found it better to tell me straight out and let me know it's nothing I've done. Occasionally in doing that, because we're comfortable together, he briefly relaxes and gives me more information than he needs to. But he always catches himself fairly quickly and remembers that therapy isn't about him. (And I can generally be relied upon to help him remember that I am happy to act as his friend. But I don't pay my friends $2 a minute to spend time with them.) He always recognize that my response may well be about me, if what he says upsets me.
I think it may be therapeutically beneficial in helping me see him more realistically. But I'm not at all sure he planned that benefit.
When your therapist told you how much he appreciated your distress for him, did you feel pressured not to respond in a less pleasing way?
I admit there was one time when there was a role reversing session. His therapist had killed himself, and he knew that I would understand more than anyone else he knew. And of course I did, and put on my Babble Dinah hat instead of my unreasonable and childish Dinah hat (or bonnet). I even invited him to Babble, though I then rescinded the invitation. I knew you guys would also understand. But worlds should not collide. However, that was a one time event in fifteen years of therapy.
I don't mean in any way to lessen what happened this session. It sounds like a wonderful session. I just wanted to raise the possibility that it's better in theory to have reciprocal emotional intimacy with a therapist than it is in reality. Nothing to worry about at this point. But you might want to keep some awareness going forward.
Posted by pegasus on December 27, 2011, at 8:32:58
In reply to Re: update » pegasus, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2011, at 12:23:16
Yeah, good point. I will consider that.
(after some considering) I'm guessing that he was trying to reassure me that it is OK to feel sympathetic toward him. In the past we've talked about how I don't think anything I do or say really affects him. Because I'm really convinced that I don't matter, and that is HUGE in my transference with him. So, I think he was trying to show me that I matter, in that my feelings (in this case, sympathy) can influence him.
I remember now that he also asked whether I might have dissociated because I was so terrified of feeling caring thoughts about him. Because I'm so sure that he can't care about me (because of all of his other clients, and the whole therapy set up, etc.). If I don't think he can care about me, I feel like I *shouldn't* care about him. So, the idea is that when he told me this thing that elicited from me feelings of concern for him, that scared the wits out of me, and I dissociated.
I've been pondering whether I think that's what happened. I think it may be a piece of it, but not the whole story.
It's good to have given your concern some serious thought. Thanks for pointing that out.
- peg
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