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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Solstice on August 12, 2011, at 12:20:38
In reply to At the risk of sounding like Paul, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2011, at 8:06:21
I don`t know, Dinah... but I know what you`re talking about. I`m struggling right now with making myself get going on something that I KNOW will have a dramatically positive impact on my feelings about life... bit I keep avoiding it. So if you figgure it out.. please let me know!
Solstice
Posted by Daisym on August 12, 2011, at 12:42:20
In reply to Re: At the risk of sounding like Paul, posted by Solstice on August 12, 2011, at 12:20:38
I think we all struggle with this to some degree. There is a reason, deep, deep down, that we don't seem to have the energy to move towards a positive. Inertia is a human fall back position.
I've found that the best way is to set up some kind of schedule and reward system and then to make the commitment to myself to follow through. As in - I will walk on the tread mill for 1/2 hour every day and I can only watch the Drop Dead Diva TiVo when I'm walking.
I think the other issue for me is that when I try to unravel my reasons for avoiding something I know I usually like and/or is good for me, I feel enormous shame because I'm *smart enough* to know what I need to do...I just don't. AND I also know all the techniques for follow-through...and I don't use them. So nothing I say or my therapist might say is new -- I just get more frustrated with myself. So I don't want to talk about it. It is a vicious cycle.
Posted by sigismund on August 12, 2011, at 15:02:52
In reply to At the risk of sounding like Paul, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2011, at 8:06:21
These are all good questions and I ask them of myself, especially from line 2 onwards.
Someone on the med board had 'anticipatory anhedonia' (which is good if you want a name) but not, as far as I can recall, a treatment.
And someone there too said 'The drug is not going to jump in the cockpit and fly the plane for you', and I said 'But that is what I want'.
I can dimly recall taking some codeine and starting to make a vegetable garden.
Posted by Anemone on August 12, 2011, at 19:36:33
In reply to At the risk of sounding like Paul, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2011, at 8:06:21
Hi Dinah,
I can feel your frustration! I struggle with all the things you said too. You are not alone, I "sit and not do them" all the time. I believe you are trying your best and will do them when ready.
It's good that sometimes Risperdal helps you. Is there anything else that works for you?
I find myself not wanting to do the good-for-me things when I'm not getting enough sleep/rest, so I try to take care of that first.
I also have games to make myself do stuff.
1. I have a timer, if I do the task before time's up, I win the game.
2. I feel so desperate to impress my T that I work harder in between sessions so I have "glowing reports" to share with her. ( One rule is I have to Show & Tell a new painting every time I show up at her office. )
3. I play a game of being a clone of my T, who I imagine to be efficient and a "doer", so I pretend to act like her. I whisper to myself, "JUST LIKE MOMMY!"
4. I scribble lots of motivational phrases & pictures on my bathroom mirror, such as, "Doing is easier than worrying". I draw mountains and tiny people climbing on them, some at the bottom, some at the top, to symbolize I can start with one tiny step and eventually get to the top.
I don't know if it's helpful but that's what I do. These games help me a bit.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 12, 2011, at 21:11:29
In reply to At the risk of sounding like Paul, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2011, at 8:06:21
I wish I knew the answer. All I know is that I do it too.
Daisy is right, inertia is a powerful force.
Posted by Dinah on August 13, 2011, at 18:47:02
In reply to At the risk of sounding like Paul, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2011, at 8:06:21
I made the mistake of bringing it up in therapy. My therapist's interpretation is that I grew up in chaos at my family's home and have a repetition compulsion to create chaos in my life by not doing what I needed to do. So that my real intent in not doing what I need to do is to create chaos.
I agreed that the end result might be chaos, but disagreed that chaos was my goal. I told him that if I ate a fun size Milky Way (the best combination of chocolate, nougat, and caramel), the result might be that I put on weight. But the intent in eating the Milky Way wasn't to get fat, it was to have the smooth chocolate and gooey caramel melt in my mouth. It was because the short term gratification was more important to me at that moment than my long term health. He said that it was the same thing. That my goal in eating the Milky Way was to get fat, if that was the predictable outcome. But if I were to discover tomorrow that Milky Ways had no carbs or calories, I'd eat way more fun size Milky Ways than the one a month I average now, not less. If I were to discover that Milky Ways have zero calories and Kit Kat bars have 1000 calories, I wouldn't stop eating Milky Ways and start eating Kit Kats. If we are using the same words to mean the same things, then his point of view is illogical, at the very least.
When I disagreed with his theory and told him why, he complained that I always say I want him to push me, but when he does I get angry. Then he said that my disagreement was denial. That he was right and I was in denial of the truth that I chose to create chaos in my life. He wasn't willing to compromise on the fact that I *did* create chaos in my life, but that that was the side effect and not the goal.
I really can't win, can I? I either accept his judgement or I'm considered resistant to the truth and in denial. I'm the patient, so his judgement is automatically given more weight.
I want to tell him that I would be more willing to accept his thesis if he could support it with facts to back it up. Other times when I create chaos in my life. Would it be my unstable relationships? (Married to the first guy I seriously dated as a senior in high school. Have a good and companionate marriage notable for its backbone of humor and lack of drama.) My rootlessness? (Live less than ten miles from where I grew up, in a nearly identical neighborhood. Still work at the same job I had since my junior year of college.) My risky behaviors? (Hah hah hah.)
I want to point out that my perception of avoidance as my goal has ample backing in my life history. Avoidance is a central theme running through all my choices.
But why bother? If he thinks this about me, and if he is going to cling to a smug understanding of himself as the wise therapist and me as the resistant client, what on earth is the point? Nothing I say will make a difference.
Unless I am misunderstanding his position, I'm left with the uncomfortable conclusion that *this* is what I've been relying on for lo these many years. A fool. A smug fool.
He isn't usually like this. Has he just been keeping his stupid theories to himself? I did ask him to push me. But not without backing up his position with something more than "Because I said so."
I went into the session feeling depressed and a bit unstable, and came out feeling infinitely worse, because *this* is the leg on my support stool.
I am glad that I'm not alone in my issue. And, as I believe I have found in the past, I think I made some interesting connections as I argued with him. I think that the things I do instead of work are mainly done with the goal of submerging myself into something that has no associations of anxiety. To lose myself, to almost cease to exist as a separate anxious overwhelmed individual. Even though in the long run I just end up more overwhelmed and with more anxiety.
I also gave some thought to the ideas on how to stop. It's been somewhat helpful to me with food to write down every single thing I put in my mouth. I not only discover that perhaps I'm snacking more than I thought, but sometimes I just don't bother to eat because it's too much trouble, or I am ashamed to write something down.
So I set up a time diary to track where I spend my days. I'm not sure how well it's doing. I've forgotten this morning before I had a chance to write it down.
Since I know you guys understand what it feels like, am I missing something? Are my therapist and I talking at cross purposes? Are we using the same words in the same way? Is he really a pompous *ss? How did he manage to cover up this fact in a long history of appearing to be open to the possibility of being mistaken?
Posted by Dinah on August 13, 2011, at 19:12:43
In reply to Alternate explanations would be appreciated, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2011, at 18:47:02
I think I'm so angry because I'm scared.
When he says things like this, I think I've been talking for sixteen long years to someone who doesn't know me at all and doesn't understand me at all. I wonder what on earth I'm doing. I feel alone.
Posted by sigismund on August 13, 2011, at 19:49:03
In reply to Re: Alternate explanations would be appreciated, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2011, at 19:12:43
I can't see how you would be wrong.
My take on why I procrastinate (apart from laziness) is that I have an inner sense of agitation and distress, and I only like doing things that can be reduced to a simple formula. Doing 100 pushups, for example, is good. Going to a dinner party is very bad.
Posted by emmanuel98 on August 13, 2011, at 20:23:31
In reply to Re: Alternate explanations would be appreciated » Dinah, posted by sigismund on August 13, 2011, at 19:49:03
Wow! That would really upset me too. Your life is stable, not chaotic. Feeling unmotivated and unable to do what you need is not a way to create chaos, but a symptom of depression. I don't get his interpretation at all. It doesn't fit the facts. That's very upsetting to feel a therapist you've known so long doesn't understand you.
Posted by Solstice on August 13, 2011, at 21:11:19
In reply to Alternate explanations would be appreciated, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2011, at 18:47:02
> Since I know you guys understand what it feels like, am I missing something? Are my therapist and I talking at cross purposes? Are we using the same words in the same way? Is he really a pompous *ss? How did he manage to cover up this fact in a long history of appearing to be open to the possibility of being mistaken?
>
I *Hate* the theory he's got on this! I've heard it myself. I suppose what he's saying could be true in some cases, but I think you know yourself better than most - and I think he's just being simplistic about it. Maybe he's even being a bit therapeutically lazy by not really *listening* to what you are saying about it. And if he stays true to form... doesn't he tend to come around on most things - - but it takes him some time?I think the problem we have with doing what we *ought* has more to do with how we value ourselves, and whether we truly believe - or maybe *what* we believe - about whether we really have control. I think my avoidance of doing things - or taking care of things - that I know would make my life work better - is rooted in my self-image.
Sol.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 14, 2011, at 9:51:50
In reply to Re: Alternate explanations would be appreciated, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2011, at 19:12:43
I got to thinking more about the issue of impasses with your post. This summer, I found myself not spending my time in any "productive" way, there was nothing I particularly wanted to do, and it was hard to get going on things that I needed or even wanted to do. Everything just seemed to grind to a halt, like putting molasses into a car engine. Since I wasn't really depressed per se, the inertia was all the more obvious. I tried conveying this to my T but with all the other things we were trying to address about my daughter, this overwhelming inertia just really didn't get addressed. I only understood its meaning when it began to lift - just a few days ago, as the impasses in therapy and with my daughter began to resolve. Suddenly things have begun to move again.
The point I take home from it is that this particular inertia meant something to me, and that meaning just took time to make itself known. It had to develop through the events unfolding. At the time, I thought a little less of my T and therapy for not clarifying it. Now I am glad my T did not try to interpret it because he would have been groping in the dark for some labored interpretation. I might have been a little disappointed at his getting it wrong but would have resented it deeply if he had tried pushing some interpretation on me like the one your T seems so invested in.
You may not know the reason for what is happening in your life, but you can feel when something doesn't fit. It just isn't good therapy to be forcing his interpretation down your throat. It would be more helpful to you, I would guess, if he took a breath and said, "OK Dinah, maybe what I've suggested just doesn't feel like what's going on. Let's take another look and see if we can come up with a better sense of what is going on." Instead there seems to be some sort of power struggle, or something, going on. Does he feel threatened in some way if he doesn't come up with an interpretation, and now he has and you're not accepting it? Pushing you to look at certain issues you might not want to look at is not the same as pushing you to accept that something is as he sees them. Therapeutic humility that would go a long way here.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 14, 2011, at 9:54:24
In reply to At the risk of sounding like Paul, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2011, at 8:06:21
Pardon my ignorance, but who's Paul? I just had to ask :)
Posted by floatingbridge on August 14, 2011, at 12:36:01
In reply to Re: At the risk of sounding like Paul - p.s. » Dinah, posted by lucielu2 on August 14, 2011, at 9:54:24
>
> Pardon my ignorance, but who's Paul? I just had to ask :)I know who, but what the reference means to you, Dinah? I am not well versed in Paul.
>Since I know you guys understand what it feels like, am I missing something? Are my therapist and I talking at cross purposes? Are we using the same words in the same way?I don't think so. Your reasoning seems clear and very different from his. (Yours sounds more reasonable.)
>Is he really a pompous *ss? How did he manage to cover up this fact in a long history of appearing to be open to the possibility of being mistaken?
He could be a pompous *ss. Seems many people take turns being one. It may not be a terminal condition for him. Maybe he really was out stripped momentarily. Someone above said he comes around in his appraisals.
One maybe positive action is that he p*ssed you off but good and your own constructive response is starting a time chart.
If that indeed is helpful to you, even if dropped later.Sometimes anger is a great motivator for me, and I just look and look at why I needed to get angry in order to over-ride my inertia. Inertia is a very real force in this world, however one deals with it.
Sometimes it is the chaos or percieved chaos that incites procrastination. As in ADD types, for instance. So, yes, his answer seems facile to me.
I think this will come up in session again. Hope you are feeling a bit better by now.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2011, at 20:13:56
In reply to Re: At the risk of sounding like Paul - p.s. » Dinah, posted by lucielu2 on August 14, 2011, at 9:54:24
Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus
Romans 15: "For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate."
I'd read it recently, so it was still in my mind.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2011, at 20:16:59
In reply to Re: Alternate explanations would be appreciated » Dinah, posted by sigismund on August 13, 2011, at 19:49:03
That makes sense to me.
I've been trying to pay attention to my thoughts as I start to work, as opposed to when I don't start to work. They seem to be filled with confusion as to what I should do first, and anxiety that I'm choosing the wrong thing. Mind you, this would be less of an issue if I didn't have so much trouble getting my mind on track to begin with.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2011, at 20:20:38
In reply to Re: Alternate explanations would be appreciated, posted by emmanuel98 on August 13, 2011, at 20:23:31
Yes, and sadly it's not the first time I've felt that way. I think even if he hadn't been rigid and determined to present this as a truth rather than a suggestion, I'd have still been upset because to me it shows how little he really understands. My life with my parents may have been a bit chaotic in some ways. But it left me with an intense desire to avoid chaos at all costs.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2011, at 20:25:59
In reply to Re: Alternate explanations would be appreciated, posted by Solstice on August 13, 2011, at 21:11:19
Yes, I suppose he does come around. Or perhaps he just backs down, while still holding the same views. Who can guess what thoughts he does have about me, that he just doesn't share.
He's not usually like this though. Rigidity isn't what I think of when I think of him. I'm not sure why he's determined to hold to this theory, without actually providing any support for it that makes any sense.
My most paranoid thoughts are that he failed to get rid of me by sleeping, so now he's trying to drive me away by pushing illogical theories down my throat.
He's never so much as hinted at this theory before. I wonder if he's long held this opinion or if he made it up on the spot.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2011, at 20:33:36
In reply to Re: Alternate explanations would be appreciated » Dinah, posted by lucielu2 on August 14, 2011, at 9:51:50
> Pushing you to look at certain issues you might not want to look at is not the same as pushing you to accept that something is as he sees them.
I'm going to remember this way of putting the distinction. It's much clearer than what I was thinking.
You know, I am wondering if perhaps there is some element of countertransference here. The session before this one I brought in a sheaf of abstracts and articles relating to my theory that my mental health and other issues are related to dysfunction of the HPA axis, and a super-sensitivity to cortisol. At the time he asked me if I could read those things, and admitted that he didn't know that much about any of it. I wonder if this week he was trying to point out how much he knew. He did tell me I should read about repetition compulsion.
Or maybe he drinks.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2011, at 20:38:14
In reply to Re: At the risk of sounding like Paul - p.s., posted by floatingbridge on August 14, 2011, at 12:36:01
He really has seemed less consistent lately than he used to be. Maybe this was a one time pompous *ss moment, because really it's not at all like him. One of his best qualities is that he does proffer things as suggestions, and yields gracefully if they aren't accepted. Then often wears me down over time to see his point of view in such a way that I never feel pushed.
But I need him to be consistent. And I'd prefer that he be consistently good. :)
I've been asleep almost constantly the last three days. I'm not sure if it was the bad session, or if I'm sick. At any rate, I might cancel the next session. I can't afford to be this upset.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 14, 2011, at 21:15:55
In reply to Re: At the risk of sounding like Paul - p.s. » lucielu2, posted by Dinah on August 14, 2011, at 20:13:56
Does seem fitting, doesn't it? So we didn't invent it...> Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus
>
> Romans 15: "For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate."
>
> I'd read it recently, so it was still in my mind.
Posted by floatingbridge on August 14, 2011, at 21:55:34
In reply to Re: At the risk of sounding like Paul - p.s. » Dinah, posted by lucielu2 on August 14, 2011, at 21:15:55
Yes, it does. Thanks for the elucidation.
>
> Does seem fitting, doesn't it? So we didn't invent it...
>
> > Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus
> >
> > Romans 15: "For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate."
> >
> > I'd read it recently, so it was still in my mind.
>
>
Posted by sleepygirl2 on August 14, 2011, at 22:27:33
In reply to Alternate explanations would be appreciated, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2011, at 18:47:02
I don't understand what constitutes "chaos".
Chaos is complete disorder no?
What sort of "chaos" might you be recreating in your life?I have been realizing lately that I lack some of the practices and skills that are about self care. It just wasn't something I did because avoidance was a priority. Am I recreating something? Maybe?
What I might hear if it were me was "well, you're just creating your own problems". Not helpful, too simplistic and it just doesn't fit.
My 2 cents
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2011, at 23:19:36
In reply to Re: Alternate explanations would be appreciated » Dinah, posted by sleepygirl2 on August 14, 2011, at 22:27:33
Actually, the rest of the session was him saying "You just need to do it." and at the same time saying it wasn't that simple, and I wasn't a bad person for not doing it. I guess that didn't really bother me because my thinking already was that I was a terrible, lazy, self indulgent person. So it seemed perfectly reasonable for him to say "You just need to do it. No one else is going to move your feet."
Posted by Dinah on August 15, 2011, at 12:09:46
In reply to Re: Alternate explanations would be appreciated » sleepygirl2, posted by Dinah on August 14, 2011, at 23:19:36
I wish I thought he did this to make me mad enough to jolt me out of my hopelessness and make me think myself, in order to repudiate his accusations. If he did it would be a pretty good strategy, given my temperament.
But I seriously doubt it.
I also seriously doubt he'll even remember last session by tomorrow. If I go. I'm feeling a bit better. I'd hate to make myself feel worse by going.
Still, perhaps one reason he's always been good for me is that he does force me to think things out myself. I've paid more attention to my actual thoughts as I begin working (as opposed to when I avoid beginning to work). There is definitely a lot of anxious thought about whether this is what I should be doing, or if something else should be done first, etc. Or anxiety about having to contact someone. I daresay that's what my brain is trying to avoid, even though in the long run my work would have very little anxiety involved if I just caught up and stayed caught up. I need to break the cycle.
Posted by Daisym on August 15, 2011, at 23:24:45
In reply to Re: Alternate explanations would be appreciated, posted by Dinah on August 15, 2011, at 12:09:46
Actually - if he wanted to cram a theory down your throat, the most common reason (theoretically speaking) for avoidance is perfectionism. Many of us get frozen because unconsciously it is "easier" to not do something than to risk doing it inadequately. I say inadequately instead of "wrong" because to many people "good enough" really isn't good enough.
The other reason for avoidance is typically an unconscious reward - what did you "get" when you didn't do things when you were younger - attention? help? soothing of your now panicked little self? I'm sure you've read about secondary gains - these situations almost always hold some.
It does hurt when our therapist miss. They are supposed to know us better than anyone else after all this time. And yet, they have blind spots and/or read some darn book or go to trainings and see the diagnosis/reason of the week everywhere. It is my experience that it will settle down again. He *does* know you - you know it, you can feel it.
I'd be mad too - but it might be a productive anger. And it might help, in this situation, to not get stuck on the "why" so much but instead, work on techniques to change it. At the end of every murder mystery, we might find out who did it -but someone is still dead and those left must cope with that. Get past the mystery and start working on how to change things.
And I'm glad you are feeling better.
This is the end of the thread.
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