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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on November 9, 2010, at 17:04:49
Lonely -
Is this a feeling state that can persist despite a reality check that says one has lots of relationships? Can you keep yourself lonely and if so, what are the secondary gains from doing so? (besides safety, which seems obvious.) Is there a difference between being alone and feeling alone?
My therapist doesn't "miss" often but he sure did yesterday. We'd talked off and on last week about how alone I was feeling right now. And he said yesterday that he'd been thinking about this because it seemed to him that I had "lots" of relationships - including one with him - so I wasn't as alone as I thought I was. Or something like that. What I heard was, "you aren't really lonely, you just think you are. You need to stop thinking like that." So of course, I'm now beating myself up for wanting more than I have. And I've pushed those feelings underground so I'm "fine."
No really - I am. Just fine. Sad - but fine.
Posted by obsidian on November 9, 2010, at 21:02:00
In reply to Loneliness, posted by Daisym on November 9, 2010, at 17:04:49
> Lonely -
>
> Is this a feeling state that can persist despite a reality check that says one has lots of relationships? Can you keep yourself lonely and if so, what are the secondary gains from doing so? (besides safety, which seems obvious.) Is there a difference between being alone and feeling alone?oh yeah, I think so - that there is a difference between feeling alone and being alone
I really like being alone...feeling alone - not so much
>
> My therapist doesn't "miss" often but he sure did yesterday. We'd talked off and on last week about how alone I was feeling right now. And he said yesterday that he'd been thinking about this because it seemed to him that I had "lots" of relationships - including one with him - so I wasn't as alone as I thought I was. Or something like that. What I heard was, "you aren't really lonely, you just think you are. You need to stop thinking like that." So of course, I'm now beating myself up for wanting more than I have. And I've pushed those feelings underground so I'm "fine."
>
> No really - I am. Just fine. Sad - but fine.fine is ok...if you mean it
I can't tell
Posted by Dinah on November 10, 2010, at 0:58:20
In reply to Loneliness, posted by Daisym on November 9, 2010, at 17:04:49
I don't think the feeling of loneliness is solely dependent on the number of people around you. I think of it more as a feeling of interpersonal emptiness.
I've felt it in a crowd, and when with someone I love. Feeling disconnected from or misunderstood by people you care about is one of the loneliest feelings in the world. Yet I don't feel at all lonely sometimes when I'm all alone.
Maybe your feelings mean that you have a need for connection or closeness or understanding or intimacy that isn't being met right now? That can't be invalidated by anyone.
If you close your eyes and picture your needs being met, what do you see?
Posted by workinprogress on November 10, 2010, at 1:19:30
In reply to Loneliness, posted by Daisym on November 9, 2010, at 17:04:49
Daisy,
I've talked about this difference at length with my therapist. I talk about the distinct difference between feeling "alone" and feeling "lonely. I just read Dinah's post and I think it's the same, though I use the words differently... but I think the sentiment is the same.
To me, lonely is... gosh, I'd really like to have someone right now to hang out with and talk to, it's a passing feeling. Alone to me is the feeling of being "alone in the world". It's much more existential and profound. And as my T and I have talked about it... "alone" is a "feeling memory" it's that feeling I get (often triggered by feeling lonely) that I am alone, that I am disconnected, that I am... well, not whole. In fact, I think it is this that spurred the discussion with my T of secure attachment. She said that essentially, that "alone"/"empty" feeling will go away when I securely attach, because then she will be a part of me, will always be with me and I won't feel "alone". I'll always have times of "lonely"- that's the human condition, but I feel "alone" because it's that memory of the "blank/disconnected" feeling I got with my mother.
Not sure if that hits the mark at all with you, but I do get the difference and distinction. It's why I guess, I felt the need to make clear that I have relationships and people. That my struggle with my T is not about not having anyone else, but that what I'm really needing is that solid foundation. I've looked for it from people that could never provide it: friends, partners, etc. In the end... it's the "corrective experience" with my T that can provide it. Someday we'll get there, I just wish it wasn't such a painful struggle along the way.
I hope this was helpful in some way to you. You've been so helpful to me, I so want to give back...
I think what you're talking about is a deeper longing... something I so understand wanting and longing for... it isn't what you get from those other (very important and good relationships).
Does that resonate?
((((((Daisy)))))
WIP
> Lonely -
>
> Is this a feeling state that can persist despite a reality check that says one has lots of relationships? Can you keep yourself lonely and if so, what are the secondary gains from doing so? (besides safety, which seems obvious.) Is there a difference between being alone and feeling alone?
>
> My therapist doesn't "miss" often but he sure did yesterday. We'd talked off and on last week about how alone I was feeling right now. And he said yesterday that he'd been thinking about this because it seemed to him that I had "lots" of relationships - including one with him - so I wasn't as alone as I thought I was. Or something like that. What I heard was, "you aren't really lonely, you just think you are. You need to stop thinking like that." So of course, I'm now beating myself up for wanting more than I have. And I've pushed those feelings underground so I'm "fine."
>
> No really - I am. Just fine. Sad - but fine.
Posted by Dinah on November 10, 2010, at 18:34:34
In reply to Re: Loneliness » Daisym, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2010, at 0:58:20
This may sound a bit warped, but I felt lonely a lot until I bonded with the Sheltie who has liver failure. I worry that when she dies I'll feel lonely again no matter how many dogs I have.
If I look back, I don't ever recall feeling all that lonely when I was really bonded with a dog. That doesn't happen with every dog, just a few.
Ok, I'm weird I know.
Posted by Daisym on November 10, 2010, at 22:31:37
In reply to Re: Loneliness, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2010, at 18:34:34
I finally told him some of my upset today. He always owns his part when we have these kinds of ruptures but since this is a core issue for me, it is hard to get past. He said I'm being really hard on myself. And as the discussion evolved, we realized together that we've been staying away from the "hate" land-mine. The wordlessness and lonely feelings stem from this episode - or at least it triggered some very painful realizations. He said he was sorry he hadn't pushed into this more but I had such an extreme reaction that he had (more or less unconsciously) let me get further and further away from it and him. And very (very, very) carefully, he opened it up again.
To be alone, but safe and at peace, is great. To be alone, and scared and feeling like the unknown is filled with trouble and bad surprises, not so good. I think it is a very powerful feeling state which is hard to understand from the outside in.
Posted by pegasus on November 11, 2010, at 9:11:32
In reply to Re: Loneliness, posted by Daisym on November 10, 2010, at 22:31:37
I think I have an inkling of that awful feeling. I recall feeling even more lonely, and hopeless, when in a group of "close friends". The distance between us was so huge. And I felt responsible for it, but also helpless to slow down the impossibly large and growing gap. Like I was being swallowed. And so alone in that struggle, because I knew they had no sense of what was happening, were probably blaming me, and I had no way or will to explain it or stop it.
I'm glad that you and your T were able to talk about it, and that you're slowly, gingerly, moving forward in addressing the trigger that seems to have brought this on. I hope you will let us know how it's going.
I'm curious, too, exactly how your T and you went about opening it up again, while being careful enough (? was it enough?).
- P
Posted by Dinah on November 11, 2010, at 17:24:28
In reply to Re: Loneliness, posted by Daisym on November 10, 2010, at 22:31:37
A rupture with a therapist can definitely cause those feelings of emptiness and disconnection.
I'm glad you two are working it through. Your therapist is terrific, and I have every confidence that you two can weather ruptures and find repair.
Posted by Daisym on November 11, 2010, at 23:01:06
In reply to Re: Loneliness » Daisym, posted by pegasus on November 11, 2010, at 9:11:32
My impulse is to say that he was gentle. But he is always gentle. I think it was that he took the lead, but kept checking in with me. And he overtly said, "I'm with you - I won't lose you in this." That was reassuring. But probably the most important thing was that we talked about why we both had probably been avoiding the issue and then he said, "I know it is painful and scary. But I think we have to talk about this. It won't hurt me and it won't change how I feel about you." This "permission" to be afraid let me look a little closer. He rarely says "we have to" but I think in this case I was so conflicted about whether it was OK or not to talk about this that he took that decision out of my hands.
I think the other thing was that he asked a few questions but mostly kept narrating all the feelings that I couldn't articulate. I'd give a factual statement and he would put the feeling words in - and then I could correct or adjust. And he talked directly to the wounded part - and took it very very slow. And this probably sounds really silly, but when the tears came, he sort of crooned and talked softly - so not leaving me alone with it all but not intruding so much as to pull me up short. He made it OK for it not to be OK.
He checked in today about where I was with it. One of the threads he pulled out is that my body image stuff is linked in here too and this is something I've never been able to talk about. But he didn't push it, since we were both highly aware of the impending weekend. He is still being careful - which I'm guessing I'll need for awhile.
Posted by Daisym on November 11, 2010, at 23:29:01
In reply to Re: Loneliness » Daisym, posted by Dinah on November 11, 2010, at 17:24:28
Thanks for the faith, Dinah.
I wish I didn't feel so extreme sometimes. I wonder if there ever comes a point when you stop wondering if you should just quit.
Posted by pegasus on November 12, 2010, at 10:48:10
In reply to Re: Loneliness » pegasus, posted by Daisym on November 11, 2010, at 23:01:06
Thank you for that description. He sounds so wonderful. I do wish he'd write that book. ;) Although, actually, I think it's probably hearing about it from you that really reveals the power of the work you two do together. Thank you so much for sharing it.
I'm glad that you were able to find a way to start working on this, that feels safe enough for you. And I'm glad to hear you sounding more connected.
hugs,
- P
Posted by Dinah on November 12, 2010, at 12:28:22
In reply to Re: Loneliness » Dinah, posted by Daisym on November 11, 2010, at 23:29:01
> I wonder if there ever comes a point when you stop wondering if you should just quit.
Probably not. Maybe the best to hope for is that the reasons for wondering change, and one day the conclusion may as well.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on November 15, 2010, at 13:18:06
In reply to Loneliness, posted by Daisym on November 9, 2010, at 17:04:49
A good therapist NEVER tells you how you should feel. Feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are. All we all want is to be heard and validated; it is amazing that these trained professionals don't get that??!
P.S. I am alone...and lonely...after 31 years of abusive marriage, got a divorce then my church voted me out of membership; won a scholarship and am in school; stay really busy, but yes....I am lonely.
Hugs N Love, Sassy
Posted by Daisym on November 19, 2010, at 0:40:09
In reply to Re: Loneliness » Daisym, posted by sassyfrancesca on November 15, 2010, at 13:18:06
I guess even a good therapist has a bad day. We've worked to figure this out, which is one of the benefits of a long-relationship. I know you get that
Lonely and busy are not mutually exclusive. I'm still trying to figure out how to get out of my own way.
This is the end of the thread.
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