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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 11:19:25
I looked it up last night because it somehow came up in therapy. My therapist said that he was an E?F?. I think it was maybe ESFP, but I can't remember for sure. Which is annoying me. He says he was just barely more E than I.
I'm INTP but the P is so weak that I sometimes score as INTJ. I was trying to remember in therapy, and I knew that I was very very very introverted. I asked my therapist if he thought I was intuitive or sensate, and he practically shouted "intuitive"!! So I must be strong on that one too. However, I looked up the descriptions last night, and I'm definitely an INTP. I was laughing at how well it nailed me, right down to the fact that I was trying to find out all I could, just because my therapist made a chance remark.
My therapist rather likes Jung, so he might be more interested in Myers Briggs than some. Do any of your therapists use Myers Briggs types? Do you know what type you are? Does it fit?
I need to find out the other two of my therapist's characteristics so I can look up his type. I need all the understanding I can get.
Posted by mystickangaroo on February 27, 2010, at 15:27:04
In reply to Myers Briggs type, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 11:19:25
Understanding of your T or understanding of You?
Posted by rnny on February 27, 2010, at 15:57:32
In reply to Myers Briggs type, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 11:19:25
There is a test called the MMPI exam. It is a "personality test" (professional exam used by psychologists and psychiatrists) and has over 600 questions. I have taken it once. THAT is what you would love to get your hands on if your T has ever taken it, but it is not given online at all. The Myers Briggs is much less in depth and as you can see, you can even take it online and score it yourself to determine the outcome. The MMPI is not like that at all. It can only be given and scored I think by either a psychologist or psychiatrist. I am fairly certain that other mental health professionals are not permitted to dispense it and or score it.
Posted by rnny on February 27, 2010, at 16:00:51
In reply to Myers Briggs type, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 11:19:25
PS When I took the MMPI about 10 years ago the PhD psychologist who scored it (psychiatrist had ordered it) said "pretty much this says you are very depressed, almost like a vegetable". I didn't like that vegetable part as I found it very unprofessional and told me nothing. I wish I had taken him up on his offer to put in writing his findings which he should have done anyway. A "professional report" of his findings. I told him I didn't need him to or want him to. Now I wish I had. At the time I was told that a psychologist has to evaluate the test, not just "any" mental health professional. Say for example, a clinical social worker who has an MSW and does therapy. (Which is what I am seeing now.) The psychologist who evaluated the exam was an a**!
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 16:23:45
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type, posted by mystickangaroo on February 27, 2010, at 15:27:04
Well, at the moment I'm feeling a bit mistrustful, so *right now* I'd say my understanding of him.
I feel pretty angry with him for going to a conference next week and not telling me till Tuesday. More angry than I ought to be, since I've been having trouble thinking of things to talk about lately, and I've been thinking of canceling and using the time to get more work done. I tried to figure it out with him. He thinks I'm angry because he told me so late. I'm not sure that's it, because I've grown to accept that that is part of who he is. I thought I'd figured it out yesterday, in that this is another of those conferences that won't make him a better therapist for me, it's about some other aspect of his practice that he really enjoys so I figured maybe I'm feeling some sibling rivalry. He's going away so that he can take better care of his other clients.
But today I'm putting together some other things, and realizing that he's under a bit of stress right now and he has a tendency to enjoy running away when he's stressed. So I'm thinking I'm picking up on the fact that he's not just going to a conference, that he's wanting to get away, and that's why he suddenly decided to go to this at the last minute. And being the self centered person I am, I'm subconsciously feeling like he's trying to get away from me. When that's not really it at all, even if he is trying to get away.
And... well, he made a comment about money. When I was trying to figure out why I was actually *angry*, which really didn't seem appropriate, I wondered aloud if I was afraid that I know so little about what goes on with him in the other many hours of his life that if he suddenly tells me he'll be away the next week he could just as easily tell me he'll be retiring or something. He laughed that he didn't think that was all that likely, and I smiled and said I knew that. He said he liked spending money too much, and I smiled and said I knew that. He said he liked spending my money too much to do that. I didn't smile at that. It was carrying a joke a bit too far.
So I'm wondering again if you can trust a therapist. Because you never really know who they are, do you? People's long term therapists end up acting in ways they never thought possible. It's all too easy to hide in fifty minute increments.
So him. I want to understand him.
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 16:43:00
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type, posted by rnny on February 27, 2010, at 15:57:32
I took the MMPI!
It's a funny story really. I was so anxious to figure out why I did the things I did. My therapist gave me a referral to a psychologist he knew who gave me the Rorschach and the MMPI.
I was good and went into the test knowing nothing. But afterward, before I got my results even, I threw myself into understanding the tests. That evening, I was at the bookstore with an armload of books about the tests when I heard my therapist's voice, dropped the books on the nearest shelf, and bolted like a scared rabbit. Yes it was him, and yes I did confess, but he hadn't actually seen me.
I'd learned my lesson and went to a few college libraries and the internet for additional information. I found several books, some about the old version, and one a conversion from the old to the new version, that enabled me to reconstruct the test on Excel, complete with scoring protocols to give T scores both with and without K corrections, and with content and supplementary scales. When I got my results back, I discovered I'd done a really good job of reconstructing it because my results agreed with my own version results. :) And moreover, I knew *why*!
As accurate as the MMPI results were, I think my behavior was an even more telling indicator of my personality disorders. lol.
The results were that I was introspective, self analytical, introverted, and chronically depressed. My scale elevations made me a 2-7-8.
My therapist was delighted because it supported the schizotypal personality disorder he thought was accurate. I was somewhat happy because it described me pretty well. But I'm not sure it helped me understand *why* I do the things I do. And it was a rather negative characterization...
Posted by mystickangaroo on February 27, 2010, at 18:50:18
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type » mystickangaroo, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 16:23:45
Dinah
Is it understanding or protecting your self? I know when I put my energy into analysing my T it is a way of diverting attention away from what they are saying. This is not a bad thing. I have noticed it gives the negative side of my thinking a great opportunity to kick the c#$% out of me.
My 10 cents worth on your T's joke about money is he likes you. He likes you enough to be familiar with you. In Australia we call this taking the p... It is a great sign of affection and bonding. He trusts you enough to be rude!! Of course if he crosses the line then let him know.
About all these tests. I think they help us understand the colour glasses we wear. We all wear some coloured glasses. Somethings will naturally make sense to us and somethings will just not compute.
Knowing your T's MBTI could help you communicate with him but it is his job to look after the process of communication ~ work out what helps you say what you need to say. He will listen. And he will do his best to help you understand and feel ok about what is going to happen next. I feel this because he knows you well enough to know what is important to you.
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 20:07:00
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type » Dinah, posted by mystickangaroo on February 27, 2010, at 18:50:18
You understood the context. Thank you for that. I was a bit sorry I'd posted it, since it might seem rather unprofessional out of context.
Yes, the conversation in fact was part of a running joke/discussion about the fact that I trust him more because he says such rude and unseductive things occasionally. He tends to be more honest about his feelings about me and therapy than most therapists would be willing to do, and most clients would be willing to hear. But somehow those things make me feel better, not worse. Safer.
As I always say, how can you *not* trust someone who occasionally blurts things that aren't very complimentary to himself or to me.
Still, there's no denying that my safety in therapy depends on his character. Trying to understand that character is definitely protection for me.
Posted by rnny on February 27, 2010, at 21:19:41
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type » mystickangaroo, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 16:23:45
I was like this with a male therapist who led a group therapy I was in...and I only went 3 times and quit. So our histories with these T's are very different. But the one similarity was that I wanted to know as much as I could about him and understand him as best I could. I thought it would make me feel closer to him because I had a huge crush on him. That is just how it was in my case, not yours. But in my case I was obsessed with him and wanted to know everything I could. Someone in the group had been in it 18 years and I would try to get information out of her but in a sly way. I would try to read up on him on the internet and in that short period of time would read books I knew he had read so I could discuss them with him. I was a nut!
Posted by obsidian on February 27, 2010, at 23:06:31
In reply to Myers Briggs type, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 11:19:25
I'm either an INFP or an INFJ
for whatever that's worth
Posted by 64Bowtie on February 28, 2010, at 12:12:02
In reply to Myers Briggs type, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2010, at 11:19:25
(((Dinah)))
A cautionary "however" would be: "MBTI assessment is a measure of preference, not ability"... Temperament assessment further prioritises predictable leanings to the client MO (modus operendi)...
A couple of vectors not directly addressed by the results of MBTI testing are bias and time/value... Bias would appear when applying MBTI to the self in contrast to others... Implicate to time/value would be a selective relative importance in the life of the client, incident to incident...
MBTI------
The Sixteen Types
U.S. Population Breakdown
The table organizing the sixteen types was created by Isabel Myers (an INFP).ISTJ=11.6%
ISFJ=13.8%
INFJ=1.5%
INTJ=2.1%ISTP=5.4%
ISFP=8.8%
INFP=4.3%
INTP=3.3%ESTP=4.3%
ESFP=8.5%
ENFP=8.1%
ENTP=3.2%ESTJ=8.7%
ESFJ=12.3%
ENFJ=2.4%
ENTJ=1.8%Estimated percentages of the 16 types in
the American population using inferential statistics. The figures above are from a
random sampling of 3009 people culled from
a total pool of 16,000 using the 1998
MBTI Form M. The individuals whose form
results were used in this random sampling
were not provided with the data to verify
or question their accuracy. But these numbers
do provide a working base on which to build
further understanding and development of the
model as extrapolated to larger populations...-------------------------------------------
Keirsey Temperaments
David W. Keirsey mapped four 'temperaments'
to the existing Myers-Briggs system groupings SP, SJ, NF and NT; this often results in confusion of the two theories. However, the Keirsey Temperament Sorter is not directly associated with the official Myers-Briggs Type Indicator...e=extraverted and i=introverted...
ISiTeJ = Inspector
ISiFeJ = Protector
INiFeJ = Counselor
INiTeJ = MastermindISeTiP = Crafter
ISeFiP = Composer
INeFiP = Healer
INeTiP = ArchitectESeTiP = Promoter
ESeFiP = Performer
ENeFiP = Champion
ENeTiP = InventorESiTeJ = Supervisor
ESiFeJ = Provider
ENiFeJ = Teacher
ENiTeJ = FieldmarshalTherapists and most other health professionals
have limited time for the process of evaluation
creating a demand for a system to establish a
predictable success rate with very little time... Archtype categories created by consciencious testing and interviewing can produce focused results with a minmum amount of time and effort...
Hope this helps...Rod
Posted by Dinah on February 28, 2010, at 18:48:26
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type » Dinah, posted by obsidian on February 27, 2010, at 23:06:31
So you're more on the feeling than thinking side? I wish I were, but sadly I have to conclude that the test is right on that.
Posted by Dinah on February 28, 2010, at 19:19:33
In reply to » Dinah » Myers Briggs types (for strangers), posted by 64Bowtie on February 28, 2010, at 12:12:02
Do you find the categories helpful, Rod?
If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that although people's preferences might lead them to be in one category, that doesn't mean they have to conform to that category? That they may have abilities to, for example, be comfortable in society even if their preference is for more internal pursuits?
Yes, I can see how that might be true. My therapist surprised me when he said he was nearly even on Extroverted/Introverted because he appears to be one of the most socially easy people I know. Totally comfortable around others and to all appearances, enjoying it.
Posted by mystickangaroo on March 1, 2010, at 0:17:59
In reply to Myers Briggs » 64Bowtie, posted by Dinah on February 28, 2010, at 19:19:33
A thought on Myers Briggs Introversion/ Extroversion scale. Introversion has nothing to do with neurosis or social skills. In the Myers Briggs world Introverson/extroversion is what energises your sense of self and motivation.
For example if you had a problem to solve would you a) sit down and work through it on your own or b) discuss it with a group of people and bounce it round
I am in the middle of I/E so I need to be aware that ther are times when I need to be on my own for my own sense of well being. that somehow all the people around me are just plain taxing me out of my tree. There are other times when I crave human company. If I need to learn something I am much better off discussing it with a group. If I want to be creative I am much better off alone. It just works that way for me.
Posted by obsidian on March 1, 2010, at 1:11:32
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type » obsidian, posted by Dinah on February 28, 2010, at 18:48:26
so says the test, but I'm pretty big on thinking too, I sort of think of it as on a continuum, so some letters, like "I" for me are just obvious
the rest leave room for interpretation
I'm hoping these letters might guide my vocational choices
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2010, at 1:18:57
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type » Dinah, posted by obsidian on March 1, 2010, at 1:11:32
I remember buying a book on that very thing! A career guide by personality type. There was a parenting guide by personality type too.
What does it say about your type?
I'm not altogether sure about what they say about my type and careers. I seem to be lacking some of the strengths that go along with my personality type. I once heard that when NASA was working on putting a man on the moon, they hired an entire floor of engineers to explain all the things that could go wrong, and all the reasons it couldn't be done. Then they had the other engineers who took those things into account when deciding how to do it.
My ideal job would be to be on that floor of engineers who figured out everything that could go wrong. :)
Posted by mystickangaroo on March 1, 2010, at 1:25:11
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type » obsidian, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2010, at 1:18:57
Dinah
Myers Briggs has nothing to do with working out what could go wrong! It is about would you prefer working on your own or in a team for the I/E scale. they are not set in concrete.
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2010, at 1:42:08
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type, posted by rnny on February 27, 2010, at 21:19:41
There was a time when I was obsessively interested in my therapist. I don't really think of it as a crush so much as a reaction to the inequality of our relationship. I heard once a description that I used with him frequently. That for an hour a week I was naked with him, while he was fully clothed.
And also, I had some idea that therapists had some power to influence our minds. That therapy was to some extent something that was done to us. So even more than trying to learn about him, I tried to learn about therapy. I read obsessively about therapists and some of what I read did seem to imply that they had some mysterious knowledge or deep ability to understand what was going on in our minds. And I horrified myself by reading a book called "Shrink Rap" which really could confirm a client's worst nightmares of what therapists really thought of us. But then I also read a lot of stuff that made me realize that there were some pretty nutty therapists out there too, and that a lot of therapy was very very lacking in common sense. And eventually I came to understand that my therapist did have objectivity, and he did have some experience with certain things, but that he was no particular expert on *me*. I look back now on the fact that he was ten years younger than I am now when he first saw me, and that nearly all the stuff I thought he was doing to bring this or that reaction in me, he wasn't really doing for any particular reason at all. To some extent, he found me nearly as perplexing as I found myself. My understanding grew more balanced.
With the Wizard's curtain down, it didn't seem as important to find out those things about him or about therapy. Still, trust is an issue with me. To the extent that when I hear stories about other long term therapists letting their clients down in horrible ways, I still second and third guess his motives and intentions and the likelihood that he'll hurt me.
Not so much to be critical of him as to protect myself by reminding myself that I ought never trust too deeply. That people, even the people you trust, can behave in ways you'd never think they could. And that the only safety to my feelings is to keep that awareness in mind, balancing it against trust. Trying to understand him at this point is more part of that than anything else.
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2010, at 1:53:23
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type, posted by mystickangaroo on March 1, 2010, at 1:25:11
I'm sorry, I wandered a bit off track. :)
I was just referring to the overall helpfulness of the book on career choices by personality type. It seemed that the career choices that fit part of my personality didn't fit other parts. And in particular the description of INTP seems to include problem solving, when I'm actually better at problem finding. If that makes sense? It's not that problem finding isn't a career strength. It really is. I use it all the time, and so does my husband in a completely different job. But it's rarely mentioned in books.
I do remember reading that the I/E has more to do with where you draw your strength, or something like that? I'd have just thought, from all I know of my therapist, that he was turned toward others. Not inward. It just feels like that is where his energy is. And not just with me, either, but in his encounters with others.
But how much really do we know of them? With me he is endlessly patient. But I've heard him be very impatient with others even over small things. Not rude, but brusque. I know him as a therapist, and I know certain aspects of his personality, but we only see a limited view of them. Knowing an objective thing about him like personality type, would help me assess my knowledge of him against a more objective standard.
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2010, at 2:01:20
In reply to Re: Myers Briggs type, posted by mystickangaroo on March 1, 2010, at 1:25:11
I suppose my sudden preoccupation with understanding him doesn't make a whole lot of sense on the face of it. To some extent it's not related to him. I tend to over-identify with other clients whose therapists abandon or in some way betray them, so if I hear of such a thing I respond viscerally.
It's that darn curse of T3. When my therapist was dithering between moving back to New Orleans or not, she told me that whether or not he came back, I'd always know that he *did* leave me.
Not that it was entirely a curse of course. But in some ways, it seems a curse.
This is the end of the thread.
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