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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by obsidian on September 10, 2009, at 21:41:34
go to sleep
I am not acting in the best ways possible to improve my life. I am not sure that my life can get much better. I feel alone with this....and I'm angry.
I am both sick of and hopeful about medication.
I'm tired...time to sleep for now.
be well (whatever the hell that means)
-sid
Posted by Garnet71 on September 10, 2009, at 22:32:06
In reply to when I hate myself, sometimes I just have to......, posted by obsidian on September 10, 2009, at 21:41:34
Obsidian,
Sorry you are going through a rough time right now. I thought I'd ask - has anything recently changed in your life - that corresponds with your feelings - school, work, relationships? Sometimes, though I realize not always, a change in circumstances can provide a clue to the source of your emotional pain.
I'm sick of meds too. Psychiatry sux - but I'm hopeful it will get better. Well, the incentives are there....
Don't lose hope just yet :) I bet the group here can provide some insight for 'ya.
Posted by Garnet71 on September 11, 2009, at 0:12:50
In reply to when I hate myself, sometimes I just have to......, posted by obsidian on September 10, 2009, at 21:41:34
Better days ahead : )
Posted by obsidian on September 11, 2009, at 12:41:48
In reply to Re: when I hate myself, sometimes I just have to......, posted by Garnet71 on September 10, 2009, at 22:32:06
thanks for asking...
it's a lot of things
I started again after some period of abstinence to smoke pot, for about a week and a half
in the course of this I stopped taking 50mgs of seroquel and went down to 25mgs- big deal right? it's such a small dose, but with the combo of the pot and the seroquel I had a hard time getting up in the morning.
Meanwhile, I told my pdoc neither of these things, and he has instructed me to take less effexor over the next couple of weeks (as part of an overall medication change that will hopefully address my anxiety and mood)
I have this urge to give up on all of it- the meds I mean. My T seems to think I am in some type of denial...I tend to think I am the creator of my problems.
At the same time however, (and this puzzles me) I am a bit angry and/or feeling needy in terms of my relationship with my T and pdoc.
I sort of think they should both give up on me or that they are indeed giving up on me. Sabotaging myself? I don't know, probably. I am just tired of everything. I had been doing well (exercising a lot, eating better, feeling better because of it), but a medical problem came along and disrupted that habit as it interfered with physical activity for some time. It was my anti-pot for a while, now I am going with the path of least resistance which means apathy, escape and f*ck-it-all.
I am also angry about other things like needing to move soon for financial reasons, frustration with my career choice and generally feeling like one big loser.
I guess I don't want to try anymore, but I know that I have to, and I am angry about it.
I know things could be worse, I know I have a lot of things to be grateful for, but there it is...
So now, before starting to lower the effexor I've decided to give myself a few days off the pot, on the 50mgs of seroquel for a few days with some added exercise, so as to not f*ck up this part of my medication change.
thanks,
sid
Posted by Dinah on September 12, 2009, at 10:06:36
In reply to when I hate myself, sometimes I just have to......, posted by obsidian on September 10, 2009, at 21:41:34
Sid, tell me to shut up if you like, because I'm not sure if I'm being out of line.
But from the outside it appears that you feel the worst while you are smoking, and in that one long period of time when you weren't, you were the most positive that I've ever seen you.
I know you smoke to feel better. But I was just checking to see if it was as clear from the inside as it is from the outside that it might possibly have the opposite effect from what you intend.
I could be all wrong. It may be the other way around. That you are feeling bad so you smoke more, and that I'm seeing the result not the cause. But maybe you could consider calling your pdoc and therapist when you feel bad before rather than after you try self medicating? Just as a way to see if it affects you as a depressant?
I'm sorry if I'm being intrusive, or just plain ignorant about the subject.
Posted by Garnet71 on September 12, 2009, at 10:58:07
In reply to Re: when I hate myself, sometimes I just have to...... » Garnet71, posted by obsidian on September 11, 2009, at 12:41:48
Congratulations for working up to exercising, eating well, etc. Then the medical problem came along. Without knowing the specifics, it's difficult to tell, but you inferred it ostensibly inhibited your continued progress toward healthful changes you've recently made.
It sounds like you're saying you are totally overwhelmed right now. If your medical problem has dissapated to the point where you could go back to healthy habits, and now you have the ability to continue and you are not doing so, maybe you are right that there is a bit of self-sabatoge going on right now. Making excuses for not continuing your sustainment of good habits is a sure sign of that. I have done that many times-was on a path of regular exercise and good habits-something would happen to temporarily disrupt my progress, then I would use that as an excuse to not return to the healthy behaviors.."well I was doing xyz, then c happened, and I can't go back to...." Even though it was a valid reason to stop at the time, I personally hate that I do this.
It does not sound like denial, at least from my perspective. I can relate to your situation--over the past year, my life in many ways was falling apart-financial, medical, home, school, work...I had gotten so overwhelmed and have developed some odd type of depression where I have no motivation. Sometimes I think it's a dopamine problem or related to prior med use, hormonal issues, but many times I wonder if it is only psychological.
But if fluctuates-I go from doing ok sometimes, to the inability to do anything. I also have anxiety-which is similarily intermittent. Your symptoms, at least from what you've written, also seem to be inconsistent. Sometimes the inconsistent scope of the symptom presentation indicates it could be more psychological (although bipolar also manifests this way). Obviously, I feel no certainty about any specific reason-these are only guesses.
I can give you an example of the psychological aspect of this behavior, although I can only explain this by sharing my own experience. I think sometimes my total lack of motivation is a result of self-sabatoge--a conflict between my core issues and my conscious actions. I've recently begun psychodynamic therapy and realized I have some dependency core issues. This was only apparent when my life was totally falling apart. I, too, suddenly felt neediness with PDocs and Ts. When I read about dependency personality disorder from the DSM, I can't specifically ascribe the traits to my self or personality or behavior. But when I read about some manifestations of dependency in psychodynamic therapy-it fits my behavior. For example, for many years, I sought friendships with authority figures-usually my bosses at work. While dependency personality disorder criteria states passiveness, agreeableness, and doing anything to please others, sacrificing yourself or whatever, are signs of dependence issues, what I read about from the clinical psychotherapy perspective is that a person with clear cut dependency issues can be very assertive if that facilatates the types of relationships sought. This is certainly the case with me-I am very assertive; this assertiveness garnered respect from my bosses-who came to value my judgment and led to trust and ultimately friendship establishment. In other words, I seek relationships with others I feel are strong, protective, and self-assured - mainly authority figures, because it makes me feel safe and protected and/or I'm seeking the protection I never received from authority figures in childhood. I had experienced repeated abuse by several types of authority figures. Yet, I trust people who appear extremely authoritive. This does not make sense if I was abused by authority figures multiple times. But here's an example of self-sabatoge to repeat unresolved childhood issues: I got in a car accident recently - an off-duty cop drove into my car. It was clearly his fault; he just drove into my lane. Because he was a cop, and appeared like a good-natured person, I just trusted him when he asked me if we could handle this outside of the insurance companies. So I did not get witnesses, call the police, etc. He did pay me for the damages, just sent me a check. But now that I've begun to recognize my core issues - I thought, this has to be self-sabatoge. I trust anyone in authority and get myself in situations where I will be screwed over by authority figures. I mean, there are bad cops. This guy could have just said he never met me in his life if he wanted to. I thinks that's a clear-cut example of self sabatoge, though I didn't realize it at the time. I have this problem where I give unconditional trust to authority figures-who I deem helpful, authoritive or protective in nature. When I view an authority figure as weak or incompetent, I just don't like them or avoid them; ex: PDocs who don't help me when they repeatedly give me meds that don't work. I would have never realized this had I not been in psychotherapy. However, self-sabatoge can be very subtle. In the case of hidden dependency issues, you could be suddenly helpless in handling your life, secretly self-sabatoging to get the help of others because you feel you are (unconsciously) incapable of taking care of yourself. I can't give you a specific example of this.
Self-sabatoge can result from hidden dependency isses or other underlying core traits you could be unconscious of. I'm not saying you or I have a personality disorder; I don't feel I do, and from what little i know about you, I don't feel you do either - but understanding the manifestations and behavior of concrete core issues does help in understanding patterns of behavior. Hopefully understanding such core issues can facilate change. Self-sabatoge and substance abuse are related to dependency issues; of course, those things are related to several other core issues. Sounds like you might have some more self-exploration to do with your T?
But-I think "self-sabatoge" can also be a manifestation of extreme anxiety, due to environmental stressors and/or inability to cope with it all. In other words, it's all too much to cope with right now-and you feel 'stuck'.
I hope I haven't misunderstood you or said too much, and I hope this gives you some clues as to some of the possibilities that may be related to behavior. It sucks, I know. Maybe it is just being overwhelmed and will pass. I hope so. Take care Sid.
Posted by obsidian on September 12, 2009, at 11:53:38
In reply to Re: when I hate myself, sometimes I just have to...... » obsidian, posted by Dinah on September 12, 2009, at 10:06:36
> Sid, tell me to shut up if you like, because I'm not sure if I'm being out of line.
I appreciate your candor Dinah, and value your opinion. I also believe you speak with the best of intentions.
I need the feedback. I'm not sure whether I see things clearly...I honestly don't know.
> But from the outside it appears that you feel the worst while you are smoking, and in that one long period of time when you weren't, you were the most positive that I've ever seen you.you pay attention huh? that's good :-)
I was in a fairly good place for a while.
>
> I know you smoke to feel better. But I was just checking to see if it was as clear from the inside as it is from the outside that it might possibly have the opposite effect from what you intend.I'm trying to figure it out.
> I could be all wrong. It may be the other way around. That you are feeling bad so you smoke more, and that I'm seeing the result not the cause. But maybe you could consider calling your pdoc and therapist when you feel bad before rather than after you try self medicating? Just as a way to see if it affects you as a depressant?perhaps I can suggest that to my T, or write it down or something in order to communicate it, clarify it..something.
Thanks Dinah :-)
-sid
>
> I'm sorry if I'm being intrusive, or just plain ignorant about the subject.
Posted by obsidian on September 12, 2009, at 22:52:59
In reply to Re: when I hate myself, sometimes I just have to......, posted by Garnet71 on September 12, 2009, at 10:58:07
> Congratulations for working up to exercising, eating well, etc. Then the medical problem came along. Without knowing the specifics, it's difficult to tell, but you inferred it ostensibly inhibited your continued progress toward healthful changes you've recently made.
thanks, it worked for a while :-)
I do want to get back to it, it's just that I've lacked the motivation, and again I've just wanted to hide out.
> But if fluctuates-I go from doing ok sometimes, to the inability to do anything. I also have anxiety-which is similarily intermittent. Your symptoms, at least from what you've written, also seem to be inconsistent. Sometimes the inconsistent scope of the symptom presentation indicates it could be more psychological (although bipolar also manifests this way). Obviously, I feel no certainty about any specific reason-these are only guesses.I am generally anxious, but it is worse and better sometimes. A lot of that has to do with medication, but the medication only does so much. I am better with it, but still often very uncomfortable. So, part of me wonders 'what if I just stopped meds completely? perhaps I am looking for answers where there are none?'. The problem with this theory however, is that perhaps there is NO solution. I suppose though, what I might say to anyone else is that there is no one solution, and that there are other things to try, but I'm gentler on others and more likely to condemn myself for my shortcomings.
> I can give you an example of the psychological aspect of this behavior, although I can only explain this by sharing my own experience. I think sometimes my total lack of motivation is a result of self-sabatoge--a conflict between my core issues and my conscious actions. I've recently begun psychodynamic therapy and realized I have some dependency core issues. This was only apparent when my life was totally falling apart. I, too, suddenly felt neediness with PDocs and Ts. When I read about dependency personality disorder from the DSM, I can't specifically ascribe the traits to my self or personality or behavior. But when I read about some manifestations of dependency in psychodynamic therapy-it fits my behavior. For example, for many years, I sought friendships with authority figures-usually my bosses at work. While dependency personality disorder criteria states passiveness, agreeableness, and doing anything to please others, sacrificing yourself or whatever, are signs of dependence issues, what I read about from the clinical psychotherapy perspective is that a person with clear cut dependency issues can be very assertive if that facilatates the types of relationships sought. This is certainly the case with me-I am very assertive; this assertiveness garnered respect from my bosses-who came to value my judgment and led to trust and ultimately friendship establishment. In other words, I seek relationships with others I feel are strong, protective, and self-assured - mainly authority figures, because it makes me feel safe and protected and/or I'm seeking the protection I never received from authority figures in childhood. I had experienced repeated abuse by several types of authority figures. Yet, I trust people who appear extremely authoritive. This does not make sense if I was abused by authority figures multiple times. But here's an example of self-sabatoge to repeat unresolved childhood issues: I got in a car accident recently - an off-duty cop drove into my car. It was clearly his fault; he just drove into my lane. Because he was a cop, and appeared like a good-natured person, I just trusted him when he asked me if we could handle this outside of the insurance companies. So I did not get witnesses, call the police, etc. He did pay me for the damages, just sent me a check. But now that I've begun to recognize my core issues - I thought, this has to be self-sabatoge. I trust anyone in authority and get myself in situations where I will be screwed over by authority figures. I mean, there are bad cops. This guy could have just said he never met me in his life if he wanted to. I thinks that's a clear-cut example of self sabatoge, though I didn't realize it at the time. I have this problem where I give unconditional trust to authority figures-who I deem helpful, authoritive or protective in nature. When I view an authority figure as weak or incompetent, I just don't like them or avoid them; ex: PDocs who don't help me when they repeatedly give me meds that don't work. I would have never realized this had I not been in psychotherapy. However, self-sabatoge can be very subtle. In the case of hidden dependency issues, you could be suddenly helpless in handling your life, secretly self-sabatoging to get the help of others because you feel you are (unconsciously) incapable of taking care of yourself. I can't give you a specific example of this.
>
> Self-sabatoge can result from hidden dependency isses or other underlying core traits you could be unconscious of. I'm not saying you or I have a personality disorder; I don't feel I do, and from what little i know about you, I don't feel you do either - but understanding the manifestations and behavior of concrete core issues does help in understanding patterns of behavior. Hopefully understanding such core issues can facilate change. Self-sabatoge and substance abuse are related to dependency issues; of course, those things are related to several other core issues. Sounds like you might have some more self-exploration to do with your T?yeah, I suppose. I don't feel capable of taking care of myself in a lot of ways. It's still a fuzzy concept for me. I suppose it means the things everyone sort of thinks of like eating right, exercising, sleeping right, but taking medication? can that be taking care of myself? I've taken it all this time to help me function, but to think of it as a self-care kind of thing is different somehow. I guess the distinction is subtle, but it's messing with my head anyway. It would mean it part to own some sort of dysfunction in my brain rather than some deep seated characterological flaw....but then, maybe there is no difference there?
I'm not sure what my expectations of my T and pdoc are. I want some guidance I guess, and it has always been lacking in my life. The thing that comes to mind is feeling distressed and confused and having to just "figure it out" myself. I do feel though that in reality I do have to make some choices, but I'm not sure about anything.
It's a familiar confused and lonely feeling.
> But-I think "self-sabatoge" can also be a manifestation of extreme anxiety, due to environmental stressors and/or inability to cope with it all. In other words, it's all too much to cope with right now-and you feel 'stuck'.I have felt perpetually unable to cope, chronically overwhelmed. I have been stubbornly persistent in the face of it all, but I keep getting the "f*ck-its". Maybe it's easier not to try?
> I hope I haven't misunderstood you or said too much, and I hope this gives you some clues as to some of the possibilities that may be related to behavior. It sucks, I know. Maybe it is just being overwhelmed and will pass. I hope so. Take care Sid.
thanks garnet :-), it really helps to hear another's perspective. It's good to have some things to think about.
take care,
sid
Posted by Garnet71 on September 13, 2009, at 10:27:03
In reply to when I hate myself, sometimes I just have to......, posted by obsidian on September 10, 2009, at 21:41:34
I forgot to mention meds...
SSRIs (took for anxiety) destroyed my motivation. When I quit taking them, it got better, but never fully returned. SSRIs had given me adverse affects for the last 3 years or so, but with an exception of a period of severe depression before this, I've never in my life had motivational problems until less than one year ago (and I'm middle aged).
In context of motivation, I don't know if my current symptoms are a coincidence or related to long-term SSRI use. I do know for sure that with my last trial of SSRIs, my motivation went from close to normal to close to zero in about two months of starting one.
I'm not trying to discourage you from taking meds, but over the past few years, I've gone 6 months or so at a time without them and had no problems. Then a panic attack or severe anxiety would appear, forcing me to restart again. Now I have to rely on meds for motivation, and even those are not helping as much as before.
Do you take SSRIs?
Posted by obsidian on September 14, 2009, at 18:38:54
In reply to Re: when I hate myself, sometimes I just have to......, posted by Garnet71 on September 13, 2009, at 10:27:03
I take effexor, an SNRI
I think I've just got to get back into the habit of exercise, that's what kept it going.
The thing that comes to mind when I think about going off meds is dealing with the backlash, the anxiety, the moodiness that comes along with it. One day though....
Posted by Kath on September 19, 2009, at 20:15:30
In reply to Re: when I hate myself, sometimes I just have to...... » Garnet71, posted by obsidian on September 14, 2009, at 18:38:54
Hi sid,
so sorry you're going through a rough time.
Please be really careful about cutting back on Effexor. I don't know much about meds really, but I understand that with that one, it's extremely important to cut back slowly. Probably cut back 2 - 3 times as gradually as you even think you should!
love & good thoughts coming your way.
xoxo Kath
This is the end of the thread.
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