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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 16:42:45
In reply to asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 12:35:34
(((Yellowbird))),
I've been lurking at this board for quite a while and felt inclined to respond to your post. I am sorry you are having such a hard time.
You really said a lot about your situation here, but what really jumped out at me was this:
"He made me feel special and important. I mattered. I try to fit in elsewhere and I just never do."
I don't know how else to put this but to say, in response to what you wrote above, that what you just said is not true love at all. Loving him shouldn't affect the way you feel about yourself. (If my saying this brings about any anger from within, it is all the more truthful). You really need to love yourself before you are able to love another. Loving someone is not about how he makes you feel. This is not to say you don't care about him and don't like him very much, but I am guessing you have self-esteem problems. Your relationship with him, and this is not done consciously--is determining how you feel about yourself. In losing him, you feel you are losing your value, your worth, your specialness that you have come to know from him. Hon, you have all that stuff without him; what you really need is some soul searching!
"I do not believe I'm borderline. I can see that the reliance I had on my ex was unhealthy but I wouldnt label is borderline."
I agree that label is a bit harsh. Obviously, I don't know you like your therapist, but it could be that you have a self-esteem issue PLUS the fact that he is not providing closure (STRINGING YOU ALONG). Any individual, experiencing that combination of things, is going to have 'borderline' tendancies. Hon, boderline is permanent. I think what you are experiencing is temporary and can be changed.
It is important for you to have closure with this guy, then go through the normal stages of grief; followed by a period of being alone (no bf)--and it should be at least a year. If you can't be without a man for a year, then I would think about the possiblity of borderline...I think you are pretty perceptive of yourself, so the hard part will be getting closure from him--and even more difficult perhaps, having the self-discipline to allow or facilitate the closure.
Right now, you are mourning the 'you' that he allowed you to experience. Of course you are going to feel traumatized....Really, give it some time and you will be able to experience those feelings sans any man. And when that time comes, you will be so glad you are not with him anymore. I know its hard to conceptualize that right now, but going to therapy and support from friends and family (even people here) should help you with the grieving stage; self-introspection/ soul searching, and being alone will help you thereafter.
Right now though, you will need to bring about closure with him. Someone has already mentioned this. You can't do the next steps--grieving, self-introspection, becoming healthy enough to love, until you get the closure first. If you do not cut ties with this guy, you will be in a perpetual state of grieving--I guarantee it.
Please think about whether or not you really love him, based on true love vs. the way he makes you feel about yourself. Are you really grieving him or grieving losing your 'self' that he allowed you to become?
Maybe this isn't the right time to do that, but please think about it.
Hugs and best wishes,
Garnet
Posted by garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 16:49:28
In reply to asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 12:35:34
Here is your 'prescription' Yellowbird
http://www.amazon.com/MEANTIME-Finding-Yourself-Love-Want/dp/0684841363#
This book is powerful. Order it right now and read, read, read...It also has a very interesting story imbedded into it-her life. Van Zandt is a talented writer and highly spiritual individual who has faced enormous adversity; it is both interesting and an easy read, in addition to being powerful--it has medicinal-like qualities!!
Garnet, the queen of self-help books :)
Posted by garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 17:05:42
In reply to asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 12:35:34
Sorry for the multiple posts, but in case you are offended or turned off by religion, I just want to clarify this is not a religious book, although VanZandt is now a minister. She explains in the beginning to subsitute 'higher power' or 'spiritual' or 'soul' or whaterver you choose..when she uses the word God...it's part of her identity, but this book does not contain a bunch of Bible scriptures or based upon the religion of Christianity, and is mix of both psychology and spiritual inspiration - or soulfulness. I'm not even sure what religion she ministers for, but both those who are religious or not religious, will gain much from this book. I have a strong feeling it will be a great match for you in particular and at the same time, will help you cope-as that was the original issue you posted about.
"What is the meantime? According to author and inspirational speaker Iyanla Vanzant, being in the "meantime" means being in a state of limbo. "When you are not happy where you are and you are not quite sure if you want to leave or how to leave, you are in the meantime," she explains. Rather than wallow in confusion, Vanzant encourages you to use the meantime as an opportunity to prepare yourself for true love. The first order of business is to clean house, starting with the basement--the place in the psyche where you store your most destructive thoughts. Room by room, Vanzant takes you through a metaphorical cleaning of the soul. This way, when your meantime days are over and love finally comes knocking on the front door, you'll have a clean house to welcome love into."
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 17:38:34
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by rskontos on February 15, 2009, at 12:45:11
Thanks everyone so much for the support...
I'm not really ready to respond meaningfully right now but I am reading and I really appreciate it.
I need to say though... I did love him. I really did, and do. There's no doubt in my mind. I believe that having someone you love say they dont want you anymore would shake anyones self-esteem, no matter how strong it previously was. I feel like I need to defend myself on that point. I'm really not ready to be strongly challenged right now.. it's too raw. I do think I'm worth being loved.
I went and joined a gym today. And got a movie at the store. It was hard to get out but I did it. One minute at a time.
It helps to know that others in the world, wherever you are, know what I'm going through and are hearing it. Thank you....
I will respond more when I can.
Posted by garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 17:50:48
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 17:38:34
"I went and joined a gym today. And got a movie at the store. It was hard to get out but I did it. One minute at a time."
It sound like you are doing some pretty damn healthy coping. More credit to you.
I read what you said about loving him; only you know yourself and what's best for you. I acknowledge that, Yellowbird, just was thinking about the Borderline issue your therapist brought up..I won't make any other comments in that regard though, as it was not constructive (sorry).
It might help to pamper yourself when you feel up for doing again-manicure, pedicure; French green clay facial; bath in sea salts.. candles..chamomille tea...soft music.
Watch Under the Tuscan Sun!
Hang in there Yellowbird :)
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 17:57:46
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 17:50:48
Thanks. I posted maybe a month ago about my therapist and her love for the borderline diagnosis, even in times when it clearly doesnt apply.... I've had many other mental health professionals who disagree with borderline dx for me. I'm sure that post is in the archives if youre interested. I think I'm handling this pretty "normally"...
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm trying to be nice to myself.... I need to think about eating something this evening so off to do that I guess.
Posted by SLS on February 15, 2009, at 18:46:32
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 17:57:46
> Thanks. I posted maybe a month ago about my therapist and her love for the borderline diagnosis, even in times when it clearly doesnt apply.... I've had many other mental health professionals who disagree with borderline dx for me. I'm sure that post is in the archives if youre interested. I think I'm handling this pretty "normally"...
Agreed.
If you were borderline, you would be clinging and frantic and begging, and then break out into an uncontrollable rage and be nearly psychotic. You would have no self-esteem or even a sense of yourself, which you clearly do.
Actually, you sound surprisingly strong given what you have related to us. I have no doubt that you will take good care of yourself.
- Scott
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 22:03:52
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 15, 2009, at 18:46:32
Thank you Scott. I know in my heart that while I certainly have my issues, borderline (or any personality disorder) isnt one of them at this time in my life. Once you get that label though, its next to impossible to get rid of.
Thank you for your compliment. I'm trying so hard to be strong... having babble to lean on helps.
> If you were borderline, you would be clinging and frantic and begging, and then break out into an uncontrollable rage and be nearly psychotic. You would have no self-esteem or even a sense of yourself, which you clearly do.
>
> Actually, you sound surprisingly strong given what you have related to us. I have no doubt that you will take good care of yourself.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 22:40:17
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 17:57:46
Maybe your therapist is borderline. You never know..
Posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 9:22:12
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » SLS, posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 22:03:52
I thought I might just say a few words about feelings of being in love based upon my own experiences with it. When you are in love, you don't have much choice about feeling that way when you wake up in the morning. If you go to sleep in love, you will wake up in love. You do have some choices with what you do with that feeling, though. You can:
1. Let it be.
2. Nurture and encourage it.
3. Allow it to die.If you don't allow it to die, you will remain in love.
If you let it be and make no attempt at processing the loss, it will probably linger for some time to come.
If you nurture and encourage it through fantasy and hope and the belief that it will be requited one day, the feelings may actually get more intense and deep-seated. You will not fall out of love.
Allow it to die if you are convinced that this is what is healthiest for you. It will die. You need to believe that. It has happened with countless others that they allowed themselves to fall out of love. I managed that feat myself. Once I made the decision that I would no longer pursue a life with someone I was deeply in love with, the process of falling out of love began. I wanted to fall out of love. Time without contact with this person helped immensely. When she did call wanting to get back together, I said no, despite still having feelings for her. I never lost sight of my goal to move on to something that was healthy for me and move away from what was unhealthy for me. I knew that she was unhealthy for me. I kept reminding myself of all the reasons I did not want to be with this person. I would sometimes come up with additional reasons as I moved through the process of separating my heart from her. You need to use your mind to accomplish this. Eventually, your heart will follow. Feelings of being in love begin to recede. You might be surprised at how fast they do. Even if it happens later than sooner, it will happen. In the meantime, begin to move forward and leave this man behind.
You know, it is funny what Seldomseen said about selling the necklace. Even before his posting that, I had thought of the same thing - that you should defray the costs of the gifts you gave to him by selling it. I am only half-serious, though. I don't want to minimize the value you might place on it. However, I would probably put it away somewhere so that you are not likely to see it.
Again, if you decide to wait for this person, I would not judge you. I would support your desire to be happy.
- Scott
Posted by raisinb on February 16, 2009, at 10:33:14
In reply to asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 12:35:34
Hi Yellowbird,
I'm so sorry for this loss. I agree with others that you don't sound as if you qualify for a full-blown personality disorder diagnosis. Psychology is not a hard science, and different practitioners can disagree on diagnoses. That's why my personal belief--and one my therapist seems to share--is that diagnoses in therapy are just not helpful.
Recently, I experienced two tough losses. I broke up with my boyfriend, and four days later, my therapist went on maternity leave. I still haven't found out when she'll be back.
A close friend of mine who knows me very well gave me some advice. It sounded counterintuitive to me, but it seems to be working. First, he said, don't be alone too much. Second, you tend to dwell on your emotions and panic that you won't be able to deal with them. Much of your depression comes from ruminating about whether you'll be depressed (not all, of course). So literally, "kill time until you feel better."
My friend's not the depressive type, so take this with a grain of salt. But I went out and bought seasons of Lost (a show I can get totally absorbed in), played computer games, lost myself in work, and spent time with friends. I told them exactly what was going on with me and that I'd appreciate spending time with them.
And so far, I seem to be okay. Maybe some of the same things will work for you. The cliche that "time heals" is sometimes true, if you allow it to die, as Scott so eloquently said.
Lastly, when your grief overwhelms you, try not to be afraid of it or fight it off. Emotions have "motion" in the word, and if you truly experience them, without dwelling after the fact, they will move through you and pass. And you will be the stronger for it.
I wish you peace.
Posted by raisinb on February 16, 2009, at 10:35:52
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 9:22:12
Posted by seldomseen on February 16, 2009, at 16:48:38
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 9:22:12
Posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 17:18:35
In reply to I'm a She! No worries though! (nm) » SLS, posted by seldomseen on February 16, 2009, at 16:48:38
LOL
It is funny how we ascribe gender to people with no real information.
- Scott
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 16, 2009, at 20:26:43
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by Garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 22:40:17
HAHA yes, that may be. It would certainly explain why it's on her mind so much.
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 16, 2009, at 20:34:35
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 9:22:12
Wow.. this is very helpful and makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I have read through your post several times. It's hard to allow myself decide to no longer pursue a life with him, as you said.. but that's really the bottom line to all of this. It's also exactly what makes it so hard. Letting go of everything I hoped, all the plans we had... letting it all go forever. Ouch. But the one thing he did give me was a clear statement that he doesnt want me anymore.. so really, nothing else (my hopes, dreams for us) matter. I can second guess his motives, his true feelings, whatever all day long but even if he DOES love me... it doesnt matter. He doesnt want to be with me. And why would I want someone who was willing to throw me away because of the possibility of getting hurt?
I'm doing pretty well today. Probably evident in what I've written today as compared to the weekend. One day at a time. I go see my therapist tomorrow and I'm looking forward to that.
I dont think my response gives your post justice as I got a lot more out of it that I'm able to put into words or understand right now. Thank you.
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 16, 2009, at 20:43:28
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by raisinb on February 16, 2009, at 10:33:14
Thank you raisinb... all very good advice. I cant imagine how painful that was for you, boyfriend and T gone together... I'm impressed at your ability to write so well about it not too long later.
I'm trying to act in healthy ways, even if it's uncomfortable. For whatever reason, this experience has reminded me of my first year of college, moving into the dorms. I was painfully shy at that point in my life but I remember forcing myself to participate in activities and hang out with others because I knew logically that those first few weeks were the time to do it, whether I wanted to or not, because you can never go back to that point. This feels similar. If I allow myself to wallow in the pain and feel sorry for myself constantly, I'll slip right back into being very "sick" (severely depressed) where I was a year or so ago, because that's easy for me. I dont want to go there. I've recently joined a gym yesterday, sent an email to someone about the possibility of volunteering at the SPCA, and talked to a few old friends. At the same time, I'm allowing myself to spend money without being so concerned over saving for a week or so (not being crazy, but not obsessing over $1). I've bought a lot of junk food that I always want but never allow myself to have in the house. I bought something new for my walls today without obsessing over whether it truly fits my decor or not... I just liked it. Those things all feel very good to me.
Having support from people here on babble helps and means so much. I still want my ex back in my life more than anything in the world, but I feel not quite as alone. Thank you.
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 15:53:15
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » raisinb, posted by yellowbird01 on February 16, 2009, at 20:43:28
I saw my T today.
It was not the helpful session I was hoping for. Not at all really. I felt a bit attacked from the second I walked in the door. I told her about the necklace the ex gave me and she asked me repeatedly why I'd kept it (rather than giving it back to him). I dont really know why. Then she started asking about my cognitive distortions re: the relationship. I'm sure there are/were some, but it was too much to take. I shut down. We ended up arguing about the borderline label and me telling her how I feel like literally everything I talk about is evidence of me being unhealthy in one way or another. I feel the need to shut down and protect myself, which I also told her. She sort of got it, and said most of the right things... but I dont know, I dont feel like she really got it completely. She definitely does not get why the borderline label can be hurtful. I explained that I dont mind the depression diagnosis but BPD is different - she didnt get that at all. The whole session has shaken me pretty hard. I was/am feeling very vulnerable right now... the breakup is still VERY raw. Heck, the "no contact" with my ex just began on Sunday. I'm not ready to be pushed. I told her that.
One day at a time...
Posted by Garnet71 on February 17, 2009, at 16:28:02
In reply to Update, posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 15:53:15
((((Yellowbird)))))
Don't have really any helpful words, but wanted to send you a hug.
Your therapist should be able to work at a level you are comfortable with...still thinking about her love of borderline dx.: P.R.O.J.E.C.T.I.O.N.
OR if not that, maybe you or your relationship remind her of herself in some ways...ways in which she has not yet dealt with properly or that bring up uncomfortable emotions for her. Therapists are just as human as the rest of us and have their own issues to contend with. Some are even LESS emotionally/mentally healthy than their patients.
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 16:44:57
In reply to Re: Update » yellowbird01, posted by Garnet71 on February 17, 2009, at 16:28:02
Thanks Garnet. I actually thought of you/your last post while in session today... the post where you suggested maybe SHE is borderline.
My T and I have a special connection. She has said so several times and I know we both feel it. I think that it's quite possible that part of the reason we do have a special relationship is because she can relate to me in some way. What that may be... whether it's something serious or not, I dont know... but I wouldnt be surprised at all to find out we have things in common.
I do think she's lying to herself if she thinks that the stigma/meaning of the label "depression" is equal to that of "borderline". I work in the field myself and I know how many professionals look at it. Therapy can make you question yourself a lot (for me anyway), to the point it can really confuse me as to what the truth even is.. but I KNOW that I'm not crazy in feeling this way.
She's a smart lady and I know that she listens when I tell her something isnt working for me. I know she wants to get it and wants to be helpful however she can. If I didnt know that, I'd have a lot less patience for this... but I know that she wants to help. I'll keep beating at it if I need to I guess... but I do strongly believe that my upset with this ISNT an indication of anything but me being normal. People here on babble have helped me understand that.
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2009, at 16:45:02
In reply to Update, posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 15:53:15
((((Yellowbird)))))
I don't understand why some therapists make things so complicated. I sometimes think they see complication in simplicity as a projection of their own need to feel smart.
I would not expect you (or me) to make all of the "right" decisions with great efficiency during such a traumatic time. That you decided to keep the necklace may not have been completely well thought out, but I don't think it is something that you should have been reprimanded for. Ouch.
Here's a question:
Why do you think that you kept the necklace?
There is no right or wrong answer.
However, the answer might be instructive.
You're OK, by the way.
- Scott
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 17:47:35
In reply to Re: Update » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 17, 2009, at 16:45:02
I deifnitely agree with you about the need of some therapists/drs to feel smart and make things overly complicated in an effort to do so. I believe that therapy itself can be a setup for this... one person (the therapist) being the guide, "all knowing" (supposedly) helper, and the other (the client) being the seeker of that help and knowledge. A strange relationship really.
I dont know that she was trying to reprimand me about the necklace really.. she seemed genuinely interested. There was a general feeling of "was that a good idea?" though. I think there are many reasons why I took it. For one, I didnt want him to feel rejected. The biggest reason though is probably that I was trying to hold on to any hope of our relationship continuing and deny that it was really over. To hand it back to him would have been a strong statement of "it's over" that I wasnt really ready/able to make. The rush of emotion during that afternoon while we were together was very intense and I'm sure I wasnt thinking straight. I may gave it back later.
I think I've accepted that it truly is over much more now than I had that day. I feel I've come a long ways in a few days. The anger has stated to replace the hurt and I find anger towards him much easier to deal with.
Thank you Scott. Your posts have been really helpful.
Posted by seldomseen on February 17, 2009, at 18:35:36
In reply to Update, posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 15:53:15
You see, I'm just not a big diagnosis person. It just boggles my mind to think that something as complicated as the human mind can be bound by something as simple as "you have borderline personality disorder". Anyway, that's the end of my rant on that.
I think your therapist is actually trying to simplify your therapy and using borderline as pegboard to hang what she perceives to be unhealthy behaviours.
If there is ever a time in our life when we should be allowed some unhealthy behaviours (as long as they are not physically harming yourself or anyone else or committing emotional battery) it is just after the end of a relationship. Pish posh on the T's and their insistence that we be healthy all the time. Pish posh indeed.
Actually, the way you are handling all this IMO is amazing. You are reaching out for support, telling people what you need and giving yourself some space to figure all this out.
You go girl.
You know what I wish? I wish there were something like a coma pill. One that we could just take during hard times, fall into a deep meditative place and process hurt, but not be at all aware that we are doing it. Then BING! we could wake up and it's all over. Of course, I also really wish that Gandalf was real, and that there were fairies in my morning glories.
So I might be a little "touched".
One day at a time, one foot in front of the other. The road you are on leads to peace.
Seldom.
Posted by rskontos on February 17, 2009, at 20:28:56
In reply to Re: Update » yellowbird01, posted by seldomseen on February 17, 2009, at 18:35:36
I think that while she, your T, thinks she is being a therapist and discussing the dx. she is actually doing more to undermine your
relationship.From what I know, about BPD, would be that your behavior if you were BPD, that once your boyfriend did something wrong, like breakup with you or say he did not want to see you anymore, you would turn on him like a mad woman. YOu did not do this. You have been coping with very well. A BPD would then turn and get so fixated on the therapist or someone else until that person did something wrong etc etc.
I know you have a close relationship with your T but I don't hear an unhealthy amount of transference which I believe is the behavior of BPD, almost like an obsession versus transference.
All of this I think is more of a reason to wonder. Besides, I don't think hanging on to the necklace is an "ahhh, see that is obsessive behavior", and that means you have personality disorder. It means he gave you a necklace during a breakup and you just could not think about what to do with it at that moment.
I think she, your t, should keep this situation with boyfriend out of dxing sessions. It seems so unproductive.
And for why, what is the reason to have you two argue about it. Is that really necessary?
Seems to me it is taking away from the real therapy. Right now, it is getting over a bad break from someone you loved. period.
I am sorry yellowbird. I think your therapist is not really dealing with the what's that happened but something else.
take care, it is good to hear how you are doing things for yourself.
rsk
Posted by SLS on February 18, 2009, at 7:12:48
In reply to Re: Update » yellowbird01, posted by seldomseen on February 17, 2009, at 18:35:36
> Actually, the way you are handling all this IMO is amazing.
I could not agree more.
(((((Yellowbird)))))
You are a good role model for me.
- Scott
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