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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 8, 2008, at 8:52:59
My T took some time off for a family holiday, so I didn't see him for a week and a half (I usually see him twice weekly).
Anyway, I missed him terribly - I spent much of the time in limbo just waiting for him to return. While he was away I had a difficult appointment with my new Pdoc that kind of worried/upset me - I was so nervous about that session that everything seemed to come out completely jumbled and wrong. I really would have liked to have seen my T soon afterwards and discuss it while it was fresh and intense. But instead he wasn't there :(
Anyway, this always seems to be the case - when I do see him again after his return, it always feels an anti-climax. I don't get the good feeling I long for - don't feel safe/connected straight away - some reparation is needed.
Anyway, I decided to take him some flowers today - just as a token of my thanks to him - I chose roses (not for their romantic connection but because they were in lots of pretty colours). He always has flowers in his room - so if you bring flowers he'll put them in the room. Anyway, I arrive with a big bunch of roses and am standing at the door, ring the bell and at that moment his wife comes up the path behind me with her bike. I wanted to disappear into the ground! I felt sooo awkward to be standing their with a big bunch of roses for HER husband.
Anyway, my T behaved completely normally - was pleased for the flowers and went off to find a vase. I went into the therapy room to get out of the way. I walked up to his desk and was looking out of the window when I noticed he had some photos of his daughters in the display cabinet next to his desk. I hadn't seen these before. I think the combination of his wife coming home when I arrived and the presence of these photographs of his beautiful daughters made me feel so uncomfortable and unwelcome. It sounds pathetic but I don't like the fact he has his daughters in the room there - that room doesn't feel safe like it did. In fact it all feels wrong after today :(
The funny thing is, I don't mind it when he discloses things - I like it - but seeing the photos triggered me - likewise if I'd known his wife would arrive just at that moment, I wouldn't have brought the flowers. It feels like someone caught me doing something I shouldn't or at least something that was private and not meant for others to see.
Witti
Posted by lemonaide on October 8, 2008, at 9:54:39
In reply to Very awkward experience, posted by Wittgensteinz on October 8, 2008, at 8:52:59
HI Witti,
I think there is always a change when they come back from vacation, I don't know if it is us or them, but I feel it too.
As far as your T's wife, I think he needs to have her respect your privacy more. She shouldn't be around when his clients are coming and going, even if she is living there. I know this would be very uncomfortable even if I was standing at his door with roses. She needs to give his clients some space, and she isn't respecting that. I see now why T's shouldn't practice at home for this reason and many more.
I am sure the pictures of his children would be hard to see, my 1st T had them but they were hidden, the 2nd had them on display right there in the office. It was of his 40th wedding anniversary, with all the kids and grand kids in a big photo. Plus a picture with just his kids, all my age and older. There must be some issue there too, but I am sure you know that, you are one smart Witti. ;-)
Maybe you were feeling funny giving him roses because of the meaning sometimes behind them, even if it wasn't what you were thinking, the fact you saw his wife, maybe you thought she would think that, and come over and claw your eyes out! lol Just kidding, but maybe it felt like you were doing something wrong.
I guess you need to talk to him about this. But the wifey thing I would think is in the violation of your confidentiality.
Posted by Nadezda on October 8, 2008, at 10:19:03
In reply to Very awkward experience, posted by Wittgensteinz on October 8, 2008, at 8:52:59
Those encounters (including the photographs) sound hard to swallow.
It's the darker side of having therapy at your T's house. There are bound to be moments when you need to hold this phantasy of your T as only for you-- to feel that your relationship can proceed un-selfconsciously (not that it won't be make conscious, but it can go on without the thought-- "what if his family sees x"-- x being different things at different times). Or having to confront his wife with her bike-- or his children on his desk, or in their backyard, or wherever.
It makes it much much harder to keep yourself inside the room,, where the outside world doesn't penetrate. I'm amazed that you've been doing it so well for so long. I know his family has their own feelings about seeing patients come and go-- ones that occur mostly outside your view, but--at his house-must impinge in many subtle ways-- . This time it was more painful and obtrusive.
Maybe you felt some romantic impulse behind the roses-one that remained unexamined and innocent, but became more guilty in his wife's presence.
I wonder if at-home offices are fair to patients (or family) - But finding the right T is very hard-- You make compromises and deal with conditions that he or she provides. You should be aware that whatever his wife may have felt,, she probably was sorry if, in any way, she made you ill at ease. I'm sure your T would be interested in your reaction. And in that way, it can be more positive, in letting you delve more directly into how you respond.
The thing with his children, I especially understand. My T also has had children whom he's told me about-- and at times, I've felt very sad that I never had the love and protection and many other things that I"m sure he and his wife provide them. It has seemed terribly unfair and hard to accept-- even though I feel a lot of positive emotion about them, in the abstract. It would be much hard if he had photos, or things that reminded him of them, to look at while he and at were together-- or in the room. Again, it has so much chance of disrupting your connection by instruding things from "real life" into your space.
Maybe if you talk about it, it can become less of an intrusion. I very much hope so. These things can be worked on and are, in the deepest sense, not so important to your relationship with him, which ultimately it what it is-- in itself-- no matter what other commitments and relationships he has. Maybe you can think of whatever is between you and him, not as contingent, any more his with than anyone else. No matter what the formal arrangements--even if the relationship is of a particular kind-- it has the potential for as much meaning - as you want to find in and through it-- for him and for you.
Nadezda
Posted by Phillipa on October 8, 2008, at 10:53:26
In reply to Re: Very awkward experience » Wittgensteinz, posted by Nadezda on October 8, 2008, at 10:19:03
Guess I have a different view as my pdoc years ago in CT practiced at his house and I used to watch his wife work in the garden it was natural for her to be where she lived and kind of conforting to know he had a normal life at least that was the way I saw it. Phillipa
Posted by lucie lu on October 8, 2008, at 12:07:23
In reply to Very awkward experience, posted by Wittgensteinz on October 8, 2008, at 8:52:59
Witti,
You know, I don't think that therapy-love, as powerful as it is, fits anywhere within the ordinary conventions of expressions of love. Even words have different meanings when used to describe therapy-love. The therapy world and everyday world often just seem non-intersecting. I think that's what just happened to you. You were expressing therapy-love in an appropriate manner and I think it was sweet of you. I'm sure your T did too. He's used to inhabiting both worlds.
Best,
Lucie
Posted by DAisym on October 9, 2008, at 0:04:43
In reply to Re: Very awkward experience » Wittgensteinz, posted by lucie lu on October 8, 2008, at 12:07:23
Witti,
My therapist's wife works next door in one of "their" offices. I see him in two offices and he knows I love one and not so much the other. They rotate their schedules - I think she starts on the half hour and him on the hour - most of the time so that they don't both go get clients from the waiting room. But - I seem to run into her ALL the time - coming across the parking lot, going up the stairs, or down or in the ladies room. And I'm there enough (5 yrs, 4x week) that she must know I'm one of *his* clients by now.
Mostly I deal with it. It is very hard when I get totally frustrated with it, or weirded out and I need to tell him this -but she is right next door! I feel so invaded sometimes. We talk about it a lot and it ebbs and flows. Tuesday I had a hissy about not being allowed to care about him now that I'm in a "real" relationship, etc. etc. and I left in tears - only to run into her. I felt like an idiot. Of course I'm not allowed to care about her husband like this. And of course I am and she's a therapist so she'd understand, I hope.
It is all so complicated. I hope you find a way to tell your therapist that you don't feel completely safe right now. I bet he can help you with this.
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 9, 2008, at 14:21:46
In reply to Very awkward experience, posted by Wittgensteinz on October 8, 2008, at 8:52:59
I'm sorry I haven't replied to you yet. I'm really grateful for your comments and I will write proper replies soon.
I've felt quite unwell (depression/anxiety-wise) the last 24/48 hours - didn't sleep last night, panic attacks. Today was also eventful - a kid at the school where I work (it's a special school) lost his temper and threw a chair across the room during my class. Nothing like this has ever happened before while I've been there and it upset me - no-one was hurt. Another teacher in the class lost her temper with him for not paying attention (despite him having problems with maintaining attention) and this led to his outburst of anger. I found the incident very triggering.
I will see my T again tomorrow and know I need to talk about the way the last session made me feel - the photos and his wife.
Thanks for your words,
Witti
Posted by lucie lu on October 9, 2008, at 15:18:15
In reply to Apology, posted by Wittgensteinz on October 9, 2008, at 14:21:46
Witti,
Please do not feel that we need replies, *especially* when you are feeling so down. And please don't hesitate to post again (and again) if you need support or want to talk - don't let your "reply status" hold you back. We understand, we've all been there. Hope you're feeling better soon.
((((((((((((((((Witti))))))))))))))))))))
Take care of yourself,
Lucie
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 9, 2008, at 17:06:12
In reply to Re: Very awkward experience » Wittgensteinz, posted by lemonaide on October 8, 2008, at 9:54:39
Hi Lemonaide,
Thanks for the reply - I hate the sessions just after my T returns from a vacation because I always feel so unsettled.
If I'm honest, I feel envious/jealous of his daughters. They looked so happy and pretty in the pictures (there was a montage of photos of them as young girls and as teenagers/young women) - they both are grown up and live away from home now. Perhaps I feel inadequate - I have difficulty with my self-perceptions. I'm jealous of how I imagine they were brought up, the loving, nurturing environment I didn't have. It's confronting. In a way I want my T to be my dad/parent (it's a childish desire - of course rationally I know it's a non-starter). I long for a protective father - someone who could have protected me from my mother.
I'm a bit younger than his daughters - I don't know that much about them to be honest. He has mentioned them a handful of times, which has never bothered me - it's always been of relevance when he has. Instead I am coming to someone else's dad's house and giving him flowers (in front of his wife)!
It just feels like there's too much in the room now - just me and T would be quite enough lol.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 9, 2008, at 17:35:05
In reply to Re: Very awkward experience » Wittgensteinz, posted by Nadezda on October 8, 2008, at 10:19:03
Hi Nadezda,
> It's the darker side of having therapy at your T's house.
** Yes! This was really the first time (ok, perhaps one of the first times) I've really resented the set-up he has there. I like the therapy room, I like the neighbourhood and the feeling I get when I go there. It's comfortable and homely. The only problem is that both the family home and the office share the same front door and the same garden path, and that inevitably leads to the occasional encounter.
> It makes it much much harder to keep yourself inside the room,, where the outside world doesn't penetrate.
** You put it perfectly here. It just doesn't feel safe right now. The problem is that things are not going that well for me right now and I REALLY need that safe place to go to :( My anxiety is sky-high at the moment - it's like I have no-where to hide.
> Maybe you felt some romantic impulse behind the roses-one that remained unexamined and innocent, but became more guilty in his wife's presence.
There is a big age-difference between me and him - he is older than my dad (and my dad is retired). I'm in my early 20s and he's in his late 60s. That said, in some ways, I feel attracted to him - there is definitely an erotic transference and we have explored that somewhat, although I avoid it like the plague - it's just too uncomfortable and feels wrong. Perhaps deep down that influenced my choice to get roses or in any case influenced the way I felt about giving him those roses in front of his wife. I'm certainly not trying to sabotage his relationship/marriage but it seemed wrong. Yuck! Then I think "God, she must know I have *those* kind of feelings for him"... it's like my big secret is out - it's just about ok for him to know, but no-one else should know that.
> I wonder if at-home offices are fair to patients (or family) - But finding the right T is very hard-- You make compromises and deal with conditions that he or she provides.
I've wondered this too - how it must have been for his daughters growing up with their father spending so many hours in the house yet unavailable in his office with someone else. I find him a very good therapist - for me he is just right - a good match - not overly soft (that would make me suspicious and run) but caring enough to keep me there and together. He's very open about my contacting him when I need to via phone or e-mail - he just has his house phone so again sometimes I find myself talking to his wife and waiting to be put through to him, which I find awkward - the plus is I don't have to worry about office hours.
I should say that the photos of his daughters were in a glass cabinet across from his desk and so only in view while he's working at his desk (or looking out the window like I was) and not while he is with his patients. Still, the connection is missing right now because he's been away and this discovery makes it much harder to reconnect.
I expect this feeling will pass and things will get better - I see him tomorrow so will try to talk all this through.
Thanks again for your insights.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 9, 2008, at 17:40:10
In reply to Re: Very awkward experience, posted by Phillipa on October 8, 2008, at 10:53:26
Phillipa,
I'm glad you were comfortable with that arrangement. For the most part I share your view. I like to imagine he has the perfect marriage and the perfect happy family :)!! Sometimes his wife is also pottering about in the garden behind the office. A long time ago I posted about how she would sometimes put up/take down their washing from the washing line. That was weird seeing her hanging up underwear! Luckily I have bad eyesight so I didn't get the full details on my T's briefs.
Perhaps the difference is that my T is an analyst. It's a very intense relationship with transference. My previous pdoc also had an office in his home and that didn't bother me at all - wouldn't have bothered me had I seen his wife (not sure if I did or not actually) as I had no really feelings for or against him. When there is a strong attachment it matters more I think.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 9, 2008, at 17:42:01
In reply to Re: Apology » Wittgensteinz, posted by lucie lu on October 9, 2008, at 15:18:15
Thank you so much Lucie,
Both your posts were so touching and reassuring. Thank you.
(((Lucie)))
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 9, 2008, at 17:50:00
In reply to Re: Very awkward experience, posted by DAisym on October 9, 2008, at 0:04:43
Daisy,
I've sometimes wondered what my T's wife does (did) for a profession. Perhaps it would be reassuring if she worked in a similar field, then she might understand how things go in therapy. I have no idea though. Sometimes I try to explain something to my partner and he never really gets how important something 'so small' can be in the context of therapy. Maybe I should send him off to an analyst so he can get it!!
Does it bother you that your T and his wife share offices? Would it be easier if he had an office of his own?
I can relate to the feeling of being invaded, yet I feel guilty at the same time as it is their/her house after all! Maybe I need to start talking about this more too - instead of just allowing another elephant to stay in the room.
The therapeutic relationship is confusing/complicated and these details bring this reality closer to home. I see him tomorrow, I hope he can make me feel safer.
Thank you for sharing :)
Witti
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